Terrible money game/skin rule

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

 

Blade, I just love the way you just cut through the bs on that guy.

Keep in mind. I generally try to explain myself as politely as possible.  And did so this time.  But it’s why I hate handicapped events. It’s always the high cap guys who have to push the issue and poke the bear looking for an advantage.   Which is why I love the modified stableford points games.  It’s entirely results based for that micro game.  No un witnessed outside scores to matter.  

[Shilgy]

34 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right.  But if they don’t let the low guy win in gross skins , then why enter ? 
 

I prefer it played this way. All skins net.  And a gross birdie or eagle cancels a net one. So real birdie or eagle beats a net birdie or eagle. Net or gross par is a wash.  
 

I don’t care what anyone says. Net birdies aren’t rare for high single digit guys. They absolutely clean up in net skins.   

That I agree with.  Or more to the point they, the 6-12 handicap guys, will more more net birdies on most days than the low 0-3 guys will make gross birdies.

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Keep in mind. I generally try to explain myself as politely as possible.  And did so this time.  But it’s why I hate handicapped events. It’s always the high cap guys who have to push the issue and poke the bear looking for an advantage.   Which is why I love the modified stableford points games.  It’s entirely results based for that micro game.  No un witnessed outside scores to matter.  

 

Never meant to imply you weren't polite.  But you basically laid it out on him where he couldn't even try to continue his rant.

[bladehunter]

6 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Never meant to imply you weren't polite.  But you basically laid it out on him where he couldn't even try to continue his rant.

Oh yea. I know. I just am always worrisome that I’m coming off as a bully etc. I’m also a big ish guy.  I guess that’s engrained from Birth “ don’t pick on people “ kind of things.  I wasn’t trying to school him.  I was really trying to explain myself.  Since he insisted on asking.  

[golfortennis]

7 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Oh yea. I know. I just am always worrisome that I’m coming off as a bully etc. I’m also a big ish guy.  I guess that’s engrained from Birth “ don’t pick on people “ kind of things.  I wasn’t trying to school him.  I was really trying to explain myself.  Since he insisted on asking.  

 

I don't know, I would say he needed schooling, and you did so.  In as nice a way as possible.  Win-win-win.  

 

Remember, you didn't start anything.  You just opted out of the game.  He started complaining.  You just.... clarified things for him.

[Golferpaul]

The debate over handicaps and skins is eternal.  I plan two or three golf trips every year with eight guys (not the same eight on every trip).  I keep lots of stats.

 

Here are the percentage of skins money won by the lowest four cappers vs the four highest cappers for my last eight trips.  Caps typically range from 3 to 12.

 

Trip	Low cappers pct
Bend	53%
Reynolds	49%
Bandon	52%
Punta Cana	41%
Nova Scotia	34%
Tahoe	48%
Wisconsin	54%
Michigan	63%
Average	49%

 

I know this is a small sample but it has certainly worked out very evenly for us.

 

[StudentGolfer4]

43 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

The debate over handicaps and skins is eternal.  I plan two or three golf trips every year with eight guys (not the same eight on every trip).  I keep lots of stats.

 

Here are the percentage of skins money won by the lowest four cappers vs the four highest cappers for my last eight trips.  Caps typically range from 3 to 12.

 

Trip	Low cappers pct
Bend	53%
Reynolds	49%
Bandon	52%
Punta Cana	41%
Nova Scotia	34%
Tahoe	48%
Wisconsin	54%
Michigan	63%
Average	49%

 

I know this is a small sample but it has certainly worked out very evenly for us.

 

Pretty cool to that you keep these numbers. A couple of questions for you based on your groups experience. 
 

Do you find that the harder or easier courses favor one cap vs the other? My initial thought is harder favors the low caps but assuming you guys are using course handicaps and not just indexes that should even out, right?

 

Are these skins net,  or a combination of net and gross? 
 

In a skins game do you play off of the low or everyone gets their shots? 
 

Do you use 80 or 90% caps or everyone gets it all?

 

Again, not looking for other people to chime in with the USGAs suggested way of doing handicaps and what not. Just looking for any trends and how your group does it.

[Golferpaul]

33 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Pretty cool to that you keep these numbers. A couple of questions for you based on your groups experience. 
 

Do you find that the harder or easier courses favor one cap vs the other? My initial thought is harder favors the low caps but assuming you guys are using course handicaps and not just indexes that should even out, right?

 

Are these skins net,  or a combination of net and gross? 
 

In a skins game do you play off of the low or everyone gets their shots? 
 

Do you use 80 or 90% caps or everyone gets it all?

 

Again, not looking for other people to chime in with the USGAs suggested way of doing handicaps and what not. Just looking for any trends and how your group does it.

• Net skins only
• We use course handicaps, not indexes
• We use handicap delta....play off the low capper.  I'm not sure that this would change if we used full handicaps but I haven't studied that.
• 100% handicap 
• I haven't been able to determine if the difficulty of the course affects who wins skins
• It's not just a skins game.  We also are playing 4BBB and usually with a high ball tiebreaker.

The low cappers frequently complain that they are at a disadvantage... until I show them the numbers.

 

I keep scores hole by hole, so I can compute just about anything.  I find that there is a very close correlation between the average net scores and the amount of money won.

[golfortennis]

17 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

• Net skins only
• We use course handicaps, not indexes
• We use handicap delta....play off the low capper.  I'm not sure that this would change if we used full handicaps but I haven't studied that.
• 100% handicap 
• I haven't been able to determine if the difficulty of the course affects who wins skins
• It's not just a skins game.  We also are playing 4BBB and usually with a high ball tiebreaker.

The low cappers frequently complain that they are at a disadvantage... until I show them the numbers.

 

I keep scores hole by hole, so I can compute just about anything.  I find that there is a very close correlation between the average net scores and the amount of money won.

 

I think if it's only net or only gross, it works, as it appears your data shows.  It's when you run both concurrently but a player can only win one of them per hole that it gets difficult.

 

I have posted elsewhere about how amazing it is that matches that appear to be one sided beforehand turn out to be very competitive when handicaps work their magic.  I have my complaints about the handicap system, but it does equalize matches.   

[nsxguy]

36 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

I think if it's only net or only gross, it works, as it appears your data shows.

 

Huh ?

 

He didn't post any handicaps and said they played "net" skins.

[nsxguy]

On 10/28/2021 at 11:23 AM, Shilgy said:

That I agree with.  Or more to the point they, the 6-12 handicap guys, will more more net birdies on most days than the low 0-3 guys will make gross birdies.

 

If one has any "faith" in the fairness/theory of handicaps, match play, and appropriately assigned handicap holes being able to make as fair a game as possible, I don't see how this can be true.

 

The 1-3 guys will get strokes on 1-3 handicap holes. These are the holes they would typically need a stroke to make a net par.

 

It's exactly the same as those 6-12 guys. They get shots on the holes THEY would most likely need a stroke on.

 

The scratch or + guys ? Don't know any of them.

 

If ANY of them had a net par round they'd most likely bogie all their stroke holes and par the rest. Same thing for the 1-3.

 

That's the theory. Reality ? Who really knows ? 

[golfortennis]

21 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Huh ?

 

He didn't post any handicaps and said they played "net" skins.

 

Yes, I'm saying they don't play both concurrently, and his data showed that it's a fairly even distribution.  Low handicaps winning about 50% of the time.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

 

I think if it's only net or only gross, it works, as it appears your data shows.  It's when you run both concurrently but a player can only win one of them per hole that it gets difficult.

 

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Huh ?

 

He didn't post any handicaps and said they played "net" skins.

 

40 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Yes, I'm saying they don't play both concurrently, and his data showed that it's a fairly even distribution.  Low handicaps winning about 50% of the time.

 

Excuse m my friend, but you weren't talking about skins won by LOW caps vs. HIGH caps.

 

What you said was "I think if it's only net or only gross, it works, as it appears your data shows.

 

How can you say his data shows it "works" for GROSS skins when the DATA is only from NET skins ?

[golfortennis]

12 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

Excuse m my friend, but you weren't talking about skins won by LOW caps vs. HIGH caps.

 

What you said was "I think if it's only net or only gross, it works, as it appears your data shows.

 

How can you say his data shows it "works" for GROSS skins when the DATA is only from NET skins ?

 

I was conflating the OP situation and his post.  Sue me.  🤣

 

 

[nsxguy]

50 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

I was conflating the OP situation and his post.  Sue me.  🤣

 

 

 

Consider yourself sued.

 

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

If one has any "faith" in the fairness/theory of handicaps, match play, and appropriately assigned handicap holes being able to make as fair a game as possible, I don't see how this can be true.

 

The 1-3 guys will get strokes on 1-3 handicap holes. These are the holes they would typically need a stroke to make a net par.

 

It's exactly the same as those 6-12 guys. They get shots on the holes THEY would most likely need a stroke on.

 

The scratch or + guys ? Don't know any of them.

 

If ANY of them had a net par round they'd most likely bogie all their stroke holes and par the rest. Same thing for the 1-3.

 

That's the theory. Reality ? Who really knows ? 

Handicaps are made for match play…not for skins. In match play the 6-12 handicap guys will win a few of their stroke holes…not just make all pars and then bogeys on stroke holes. 
 So yes, my experience is that the 6-12 guys make more net birdies than the lower handicaps do. Including the low guys net and gross.  Luckily, since match play is what handicaps are really made for the higher guys will also mess up a few holes as well.

[bazinky]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Handicaps are made for match play…not for skins. In match play the 6-12 handicap guys will win a few of their stroke holes…not just make all pars and then bogeys on stroke holes. 
 So yes, my experience is that the 6-12 guys make more net birdies than the lower handicaps do. Including the low guys net and gross.  Luckily, since match play is what handicaps are really made for the higher guys will also mess up a few holes as well.

This is it in a nutshell. Higher handicaps have much more variability, and once you get enough of them in an event the whole system starts to break down. That's why you see a lot of events using percentage handicap adjustments.

[cardoustie]

1/2 shot skins is the only way to go

 

works for all caps, doing this for 20 years with 24 guys ranging from +2 to 26 caps

[StudentGolfer4]

45 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

1/2 shot skins is the only way to go

 

works for all caps, doing this for 20 years with 24 guys ranging from +2 to 26 caps

I’ve tried to present this to my foursome before but we haven’t ever done it. If someone is a 5 do they get 5 or 10 strokes. Well half strokes. You know what I mean 

[Shilgy]

36 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I’ve tried to present this to my foursome before but we haven’t ever done it. If someone is a 5 do they get 5 or 10 strokes. Well half strokes. You know what I mean 

They get 5 half strokes.

 

Rather than call it half strokes an easier way for some to understand it is to call it net skins but gross trumps net.

[cardoustie]

Right everyone gets their full cap but gets half a shot on each of their stroke holes. A 5 cap gets 5 half shots

 

So what happens is gross birdies are a little protected, unless, to illustrate,  a 20 cap makes a par on one of the two top Hdcp holes

 

But also the higher guys tend to win with pars on holes where for example they make a 4 for a 3.5 and nobody else has birdied the hole

 

then you also only have one skins game, not a gross and net side to it

[deadsolid...shank]

1 hour ago, cardoustie said:

Right everyone gets their full cap but gets half a shot on each of their stroke holes. A 5 cap gets 5 half shots

 

So what happens is gross birdies are a little protected, unless, to illustrate,  a 20 cap makes a par on one of the two top Hdcp holes

 

But also the higher guys tend to win with pars on holes where for example they make a 4 for a 3.5 and nobody else has birdied the hole

 

then you also only have one skins game, not a gross and net side to it

It really does work well. When our men’s day had a big turnout (20 or so groups), by going to half strokes it really helped to spread out who won. A lot of the lower handicappers had actually quit participating in the skins portion. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by deadsolid...shank

[StudentGolfer4]

4 hours ago, deadsolid...shank said:

It really does work well. When our men’s day had a big turnout (20 or so groups), by going to half strokes it really helped to spread out who won. A lot of the lower handicappers had actually quit participating in the skins portion. 

Yeah I like the idea behind it. Gross birdie can’t lose unless it’s to another birdie, or you have * caps or guys getting 2 like you mentioned. 
 

Reading “everyone gets their full cap... a 5 cap gets 5 half strokes.” I wouldn’t agree that’s considered full cap though. Seems like a 5 is now only getting 2.5 stroke.

 

How do the higher handicaps you play with like the rule? A legit 12+ Index is going to make very few birdies. I would venture to say a 15 that averages 90 makes less than 1 a round. Do the higher caps advocate for the half strokes rule or is this simply something the low guys want? As someone in the middle (6-8 range) I see both sides of it. I also know I would have little interest in playing this type of skins if 5 or 6 of the 7 other guys in the groups were around scratch. 
 

edit: quoted the wrong post. Meant to include @cardoustie as well

Edited October 30, 2021 by StudentGolfer4

[bladehunter]

On 10/29/2021 at 1:06 PM, nsxguy said:

 

If one has any "faith" in the fairness/theory of handicaps, match play, and appropriately assigned handicap holes being able to make as fair a game as possible, I don't see how this can be true.

 

The 1-3 guys will get strokes on 1-3 handicap holes. These are the holes they would typically need a stroke to make a net par.

 

It's exactly the same as those 6-12 guys. They get shots on the holes THEY would most likely need a stroke on.

 

The scratch or + guys ? Don't know any of them.

 

If ANY of them had a net par round they'd most likely bogie all their stroke holes and par the rest. Same thing for the 1-3.

 

That's the theory. Reality ? Who really knows ? 

Nah.  Those guys aren’t just helpless on those holes.    I was once dealt a net birdie , eagle , birdie on the 5-7th holes of a match with a 7 handicap Ive known to be legit for a long while.  All I could do was laugh.  Was 3 down at the turn.  And I made 3 birdies 1 bogey.  So 2 under front.  Went 15 holes but it was really over after 7.  
 

it’s especially hard in match play when the course is front loaded with harder ranked handicap holes.  
 

this is always how it goes with a single digit guy.    Also. Think about the people you know. How many 1-5 handicaps you know vs 6-12 ?   I’d venture you know 5-10x as many 6-12s.    1-5 seems to be no mans land. People either progress to 0 or they tend to stay where they get some pops.   

[deadsolid...shank]

7 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Yeah I like the idea behind it. Gross birdie can’t lose unless it’s to another birdie, or you have * caps or guys getting 2 like you mentioned. 
 

Reading “everyone gets their full cap... a 5 cap gets 5 half strokes.” I wouldn’t agree that’s considered full cap though. Seems like a 5 is now only getting 2.5 stroke.

 

How do the higher handicaps you play with like the rule? A legit 12+ Index is going to make very few birdies. I would venture to say a 15 that averages 90 makes less than 1 a round. Do the higher caps advocate for the half strokes rule or is this simply something the low guys want? As someone in the middle (6-8 range) I see both sides of it. I also know I would have little interest in playing this type of skins if 5 or 6 of the 7 other guys in the groups were around scratch. 
 

edit: quoted the wrong post. Meant to include @cardoustie as well

I think it works out pretty well for them as well. Take a shortish par four, or maybe a par three that’s rated in that 12-16 range. It’s still hard for the low caps to make a natural birdie. But the higher caps have a good chance at a net birdie for a skin. 
 

And for someone in your range (6-8), playing with a bunch of scratch players, you’re going to have a handful of holes where you’re going to get a pop while they won’t.  
 

it really did work out pretty well for our group. Might be worth a try sometime. Even if you just get everyone convinced to try it once. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by deadsolid...shank

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Nah.  Those guys aren’t just helpless on those holes.    I was once dealt a net birdie , eagle , birdie on the 5-7th holes of a match with a 7 handicap Ive known to be legit for a long while.  All I could do was laugh.  Was 3 down at the turn.  And I made 3 birdies 1 bogey.  So 2 under front.  Went 15 holes but it was really over after 7.  
 

it’s especially hard in match play when the course is front loaded with harder ranked handicap holes.  
 

this is always how it goes with a single digit guy.    Also. Think about the people you know. How many 1-5 handicaps you know vs 6-12 ?   I’d venture you know 5-10x as many 6-12s.    1-5 seems to be no mans land. People either progress to 0 or they tend to stay where they get some pops.   

 

Who suggested they are "helpless on these holes" ?

 

My friend, for someone who is as "into" the game as you are and plays it as well as you do, you give more "This is what happened to ME so there" as "proof" that the system is rigged against you than most any other poster on the board.

 

No, this is NOT "how it always goes with a single digit guy".

 

So you have a hot start and another guy has just as hot or even a bit hotter start and that is proof of what exactly ?

 

Sometimes the other guy just has a better day than you do. That's golf life.

[bladehunter]

14 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Who suggested they are "helpless on these holes" ?

 

My friend, for someone who is as "into" the game as you are and plays it as well as you do, you give more "This is what happened to ME so there" as "proof" that the system is rigged against you than most any other poster on the board.

 

No, this is NOT "how it always goes with a single digit guy".

 

So you have a hot start and another guy has just as hot or even a bit hotter start and that is proof of what exactly ?

 

Sometimes the other guy just has a better day than you do. That's golf life.

Of course my anecdote isn’t meant to be an all encompassing explanation of what happens every time. . There’s always exceptions to every rule.   It’s just to show that your idea of these guys not making net birdies is wrong. And that a 3 handicap isn’t relying on shots on the three hardest holes to make par.  I’d say a great amount of the time he makes net birdie on 2 of those holes an makes his bogeys elsewhere 

Edited October 31, 2021 by bladehunter

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Of course my anecdote isn’t meant to be an all encompassing explanation of what happens every time. . There’s always exceptions to every rule.   It’s just to show that your idea of these guys not making net birdies is wrong. And that a 3 handicap isn’t relying on shots on the three hardest holes to make par.  I’d say a great amount of the time he makes net birdie on 2 of those holes an makes his bogeys elsewhere 

 

Who said these guys aren't making net birdies ?

 

Good grief blade, the handicap system and the strokes given for handicap purposes and skins are "most likely" events.

 

Nobody's said nor suggested everybody's going to make bogie on stroke holes and pars on non-stroke holes.

 

That's how the matches are made and that's how the course is rated and that's how the game is played.

 

You got a fairer/better way of doing it ? I'm sure the WHS will be all ears.

[bladehunter]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Who said these guys aren't making net birdies ?

 

Good grief blade, the handicap system and the strokes given for handicap purposes and skins are "most likely" events.

 

Nobody's said nor suggested everybody's going to make bogie on stroke holes and pars on non-stroke holes.

 

That's how the matches are made and that's how the course is rated and that's how the game is played.

 

You got a fairer/better way of doing it ? I'm sure the WHS will be all ears.

I thought that was what we were taking about.   Shilgy and I agreed that 5-12ish guys make A lot of net birdies , possibly more than scratch players make real birdies.  You responded to the contrary.  No? 
 

 

there is no  FAIR way to do it.  It’s always going to favor somebody , and it’s always going to be riddled with people who are bending the rules to make sure they get that favoritism.       Example I’m fighting now in our club.  Guys who don’t post hole by hole. They post total front and back scores.  Well guess what.  They’re posting 9s and 10s etc. driving their cap up.   if they posted hole by hole it will auto kick out those huge scores. It impossible to know how much it’s happening.  I just know that I have several guys who post whole rounds.  And having played with them I know they have some big numbers in there.  But the rules allow this bending.   Otherwise the app wouldnt  allow posting unless it’s hole by hole.  
 

 If it’s a large enough field , flights would be about the only solution.  But I know that causes issues for higher caps when people cheat on their handicap to get into the higher flights. .  It’s impossible to cheat for the lower flight.  Which is why I favor that.  

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I thought that was what we were taking about.   Shilgy and I agreed that 5-12ish guys make A lot of net birdies , possibly more than scratch players make real birdies.  You responded to the contrary.  No? 
 

 

there is no  FAIR way to do it.  It’s always going to favor somebody , and it’s always going to be riddled with people who are bending the rules to make sure they get that favoritism.       Example I’m fighting now in our club.  Guys who don’t post hole by hole. They post total front and back scores.  Well guess what.  They’re posting 9s and 10s etc. driving their cap up.   if they posted hole by hole it will auto kick out those huge scores. It impossible to know how much it’s happening.  I just know that I have several guys who post whole rounds.  And having played with them I know they have some big numbers in there.  But the rules allow this bending.   Otherwise the app wouldnt  allow posting unless it’s hole by hole.  
 

 If it’s a large enough field , flights would be about the only solution.  But I know that causes issues for higher caps when people cheat on their handicap to get into the higher flights. .  It’s impossible to cheat for the lower flight.  Which is why I favor that.  

 

Wasn't your and shilgy's observations opinions ?

 

Assuming so, no, I didn't post to the contrary. Maybe youse guys are right. IDK. But I only suggested that the handicap system suggests it is equally likely that, for ANY handicap. golfers make bogies on their stroke holes and pars on their non-stroke holes.

 

THAT is the way the handicap systems works(?). Your, my, or the shilgsters experience notwithstanding. It's there to make a fair game. Does the match/game always come out in a tie ? Of course not.

 

CHEATING is an entirely different thing and no, the handicap system does NOT "allow" players to cheat. Perhaps the way it's reported does but the handicapping rules don't.

 

Is it possible they don't know ? Maybe they need to be edumacated ?

 

If you know guys are posting the wrong score by not taking strokes off via "net double bogey" you need to report them. Call them out - it's the exact same thing as somebody not reporting (good) scores or batting around a 3 footer for par, to take a double or triple and inflate their score.

 

If you choose to not try to stop it, you're not protecting the field,,,,,,,,,,,,, NOR yourself.