Terrible money game/skin rule

[Golferpaul]

13 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Im no longer scratch but where can I get into a gross skins game with 12 caps?🙄

 

You would need to find some brain dead 12 caps.

[Golferpaul]

9 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Hmm, I know a unicorn then.  A 6 who is long. 185-190 8 iron and well over 300 on good drives.  Too many of his drives are also 50 yards offline leading to at least a couple doubles per round.  Even on his counting scores so a lot of good holes and a couple blow ups..  There are scratch guys averaging very few birdies.  They get killed in skins games while the erratic player cleans up. 

We can all come up with anecdotal evidence that supports our position.

 

For example, on my last golf trip our #2 capper (index 5.4) had the most NET birdies (23) of the whole group.  And our #8 capper (11.4 index) had the fewest net birdies (8) for six rounds.

 

 

 

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

We can all come up with anecdotal evidence that supports our position.

 

For example, on my last golf trip our #2 capper (index 5.4) had the most NET birdies (23) of the whole group.  And our #8 capper (11.4 index) had the fewest net birdies (8) for six rounds.

 

 

 

Agreed, I wasn’t saying they were common by any stretch. 

[nsxguy]

Bottom line is, if you don't like the game and feel it's unfair, you'll have to lobby to make it fair for all or, more likely(?), find another game.

 

I'm in one net game right now that when my handicap goes down by 4 shots in a single round I'll probably leave. 🤦‍♀️

 

I say probably because there are skins and closests as well and, as one of the lower caps, I have an advantage in those 2 games within the game to where I might be able to make a few $$$ while my cap creeps up and normalizes.

 

For now I guess I'll see how it goes.

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by nsxguy

[StudentGolfer4]

17 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Yes. Overall this is true. I “ average “ 2.81 birdies a round year to date ……. But it’s a hot or cold putting rollercoaster .  So it’s not alot of 3 birdie rounds.  It’s pretty equal 0-1 birdie rounds as many as 5-6 birdie rounds.  It just depends on putting.  The example was never meant to be taken as a literal daily occurrence.  I also make 2.87 bogeys a round on average.  Year to date.  For a scoring average of 73.88.  The scratch player who hits it well and has many days making zero putts exists.  I have the stats to prove it.  Can screen shot any of them. I use decade. It records everything.  

I’m not doubting you or trying to call your bluff but since you have the numbers I am curious. The stats above, 2.81 birdies and 2.87 bogeys means that you average 12.3 pars a round. Does that 2.87 number include doubles or just bogeys? If it’s the second, I’m guessing that you also make a small percentage of doubles. Maybe .5 a round or so? 

 

If we know your average is 12 pars a round how many rounds do you have where you make 16 pars or more? 
 

Of that number how many of those rounds with 16+ pars include 1 or fewer birdies? 

[Imp]

On 10/22/2021 at 11:27 AM, larrybud said:

Was talking with a buddy and he was mildly complaining about a rule in their league. They play Net and Gross skins at the same time. Net skins are off the low man (low man gets 0 shots) which he happens to be.

 

He makes an eagle one day, wins a gross skin, and is told that "if you win a gross skin, you cannot win the net skin on the same hole" even though all players are entered into both games. So your net skin just doesn't "count", as if it never happened.

 

I think I was more mad than he, because after thinking about it for a minute, I told him "That means there's NO MATHEMATICAL WAY" you can EVER win a net skin since he's the low man in the field, because the only way he would ever have the low net score on a hole is if he also had the lowest gross score on the hole!

 

Agreed. Should not be played off low capper. If the low capper was a 2, then he/she should be getting 2 net strokes and then let the chips fall where they may against the field. I'd love to hear why this rule exists in that league.

Gross and net are two different games and should be treated as such. Many cases in our league, while a gross would win the hole, the net would split among that player and someone else and push the skin (which would add more value to the net skin pot for fewer holes). If you had that good of a shot that you get both, the player should be rewarded, otherwise, it appears you're rewarding mediocrity. 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Imp

[denkea]

On 10/23/2021 at 11:28 AM, 2bGood said:

Why would any 18 want to play in that game? You have to accept that there is a reason someone is an 18 and you can't expect them to play a 0 straight up. Even in a skins game. 

 

Where did you get that the 18 would get no strokes?  

And I know quite a few 18s that would play a scratch getting 18 strokes.  

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

Where did you get that the 18 would get no strokes?  

And I know quite a few 18s that would play a scratch getting 18 strokes.  

That wasn’t the point of his reply. He was saying why would an 18 want to play a scratch in a gross beats net skins game. Not a match play.

[BIG STU]

On 10/26/2021 at 1:27 PM, bladehunter said:

Lol. Yep. I was asked to play on a game like that recently.  After listening to the description twice I said “ nah.  I’ll just be in the gross skins for half “.  They refused that.  It was pay into both or nothing.  So I bucked again and said I’m just out then.  I played with them and didn’t participate in the game.  During the round one idiot brings it up.  I explained it like this.  “ you have any sisters ? Or younger fragile brothers ?” He’s  like yep. Two sisters younger than me “ 

 

I said.  This is one of those times when your parents made you “ play nice “ with them.   Which means don’t beat them at whatever game .  Don’t hit them and make them scream and most of all - make them feel like they won. I’m grown up. I don’t have to do that now unless I choose to.  He said nothing else to me about it.  Lol.  I’m still shocked that people expect folks to play a game like that.  

Like Kenny Rogers said " Gotta know when to hold them and know when to fold them" Yep If I did not like the game I would pull out too and go home or elsewhere--- But you know as well as I do some folks are gullible and some flat do not know

One of the reasons I do not play in any of the Mens groups at my home course. I was asked before my accident and I was a solid 5 and more or less a 3 at that course. I was told my handicap was too low. Most of them tote like 15 or more but it is funny in the weekly scrambles these same guys shoot -7 -8. When we had our power team there were 2 of us with 5 hdcp and a couple with 15 hdcps-- And the 2 15 hdcps had honest handicaps. We usually shot around 9 or 10. Got those guys howling because we won or placed a lot. In fact those sandbaggers howled so much they were fixing to split our team up and then I got hurt. Still my old team with certain players can turn it and still win or place in the prize slots a lot. Right now still recovering and switching equipment I am about a 8 to 10 on that course. I have gotten lucky and done pretty well post accident and won a couple and placed in a couple post--- But being an ex gambler I know not to get backed into a corner. Those guys around my course know nothing about skins games etc

Edited November 13, 2021 by BIG STU

[Shilgy]

11 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Like Kenny Rogers said " Gotta know when to hold them and know when to fold them" Yep If I did not like the game I would pull out too and go home or elsewhere--- But you know as well as I do some folks are gullible and some flat do not know

Yep, and there are some that don’t really care about the $20 entry or whatever your group buy in is.

[BIG STU]

10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Yep, and there are some that don’t really care about the $20 entry or whatever your group buy in is.

I will agree--- With another certain group I used to play in it was that way and I did not mind it because all were good company and fun. All were either ex hustlers or mini tour players-- We also had a $20 cap but most of the retirees thought we were playing higher due to people involved and would have nothing to do with us LOL. But with the closing of our old course that group has split up due to some getting older and not able to play and somewhat geographical issues too. I think it is like 3 different groups--- I plan in the spring hopefully when I mend fully to split my time and play with them some. 

[larrybud]

On 10/27/2021 at 10:10 PM, StudentGolfer4 said:

I know we are specifically talking skins so not quite the same but...

 

The high end country clubs around me with good players only allow you to win net or gross during a competition. Not both. Example, 2 handicap getting 5 based on course rating shoots an even par 72. If 72 is the low gross and 67 is low net you don’t win both prizes. You win the one that is worth the most money. 

The problem is that if the gross money is > the net money, the low handicapper can NEVER win the Net prize EVER. Whereas other players can win either one.

[StudentGolfer4]

7 hours ago, larrybud said:

The problem is that if the gross money is > the net money, the low handicapper can NEVER win the Net prize EVER. Whereas other players can win either one.

Yeah I understand this complaint The low handicapper can mathematically win the low net though. So I don’t agree with the NEVER or EVER comments. Scratch player shoots 67. All of the net guys shoot above their handicap (which I believe they are designed to do the majority of the time).  Same thing with skins. Low cap makes birdie on the 17th handicap hole and no one else getting a stroke makes par, that’s a skin. 
 

With that being said, I have never seen a scratch (or similar low handicap)  player win an 18 hole net event. 

[Imp]

8 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

With that being said, I have never seen a scratch (or similar low handicap)  player win an 18 hole net event. 

Likewise, I've never seen a higher handicap player win Gross. 

Most competitions (around here anyways) aren't simply just a net competition. They have different slots... gross, Net A, Net B. You can choose if you want to play in Gross, and then Net A or B. I've seen low cappers play and win in Net A. I've never seen Net B play in Gross, or those on the bubble in A. Net B would be a harder and almost impossible bet. Usually a cutoff around 14-17 hdcp between the two (evenly split by the hdcps in it). 

If it's just Net, you're screwed. 

But, Net/Gross skins? Different discussion yes. Everyone has a chance, with Net B, still, making a harder time trying to win a Gross Skin, but not impossible. 
 

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Yeah I understand this complaint The low handicapper can mathematically win the low net though. So I don’t agree with the NEVER or EVER comments. Scratch player shoots 67. All of the net guys shoot above their handicap (which I believe they are designed to do the majority of the time).  Same thing with skins. Low cap makes birdie on the 17th handicap hole and no one else getting a stroke makes par, that’s a skin. 
 

With that being said, I have never seen a scratch (or similar low handicap)  player win an 18 hole net event. 

 

3 hours ago, Imp said:

Likewise, I've never seen a higher handicap player win Gross. 

Most competitions (around here anyways) aren't simply just a net competition. They have different slots... gross, Net A, Net B. You can choose if you want to play in Gross, and then Net A or B. I've seen low cappers play and win in Net A. I've never seen Net B play in Gross, or those on the bubble in A. Net B would be a harder and almost impossible bet. Usually a cutoff around 14-17 hdcp between the two (evenly split by the hdcps in it). 

If it's just Net, you're screwed. 

But, Net/Gross skins? Different discussion yes. Everyone has a chance, with Net B, still, making a harder time trying to win a Gross Skin, but not impossible. 
 

 

With all due respect,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Balderdash !!! Not about either of YOU not ever seeing it but it certainly happens.

 

While I would normally suggest that Larry's "never" or "ever" weren't meant to be taken literally, he DID put the words in CAPS so I guess he meant it.

 

Of course that's wrong. Higher(?) handicappers CAN win low gross and low handicappers CAN win low net. I've seen both a fair number of times; though clearly both are against the odds.

 

My club had low gross and low nets prizes every day. Since there were roughly only 1/4 - 1/3 of the guys that could (normally) win low gross we had only 1 or 2 gross prizes and 2-4 net prizes depending on field size . Only ONE prize per player per day.

 

My best guess would be 1 round out of 4, maybe 5, a net prize would be won by a low cap and/or a gross prize would be won by a high(er) handicap.

 

We had a legitimate 12 capper shoot even par once. Round of his life (of course). That's the most obvious example but there have been many others, just not as obvious/drastic.

 

As for the low(er) handicapper being at a disadvantage in a low net game, the "Odds of an exceptional Round" table, linked to by the shilgster @Shilgy earlier in this thread, clearly shows that the larger the field the more likely it is a higher handicapper will win a net event.

 

Anecdotally I played quite a lot in SE Asia over 24 months or so in the last 9 years and, as either the lowest cap (~5), or 1 of the 3-4 lower caps in a field of ~ 20-30, I was probably in the money (usually 4 prizes) at least 1/3 of the time, with my fair(?) share of 1st place.

 

And the more difficult the course the better my chances. High handicappers tend to have more blow up rounds AND tend to "give up" far more easily than more consistent players.

 

 

Now as for net/gross skins, I have ZERO proof, anecdotally or otherwise, that low caps have just as good a chance as higher caps of winning a net skin BUT, I DO think that BOTH games should be optional with ANY player. 👍

[larrybud]

On 11/14/2021 at 12:00 AM, StudentGolfer4 said:

Yeah I understand this complaint The low handicapper can mathematically win the low net though. So I don’t agree with the NEVER or EVER comments. Scratch player shoots 67. All of the net guys shoot above their handicap (which I believe they are designed to do the majority of the time).  Same thing with skins. Low cap makes birdie on the 17th handicap hole and no one else getting a stroke makes par, that’s a skin. 

You're missing the point in this example though. If a player can only win 1 of the pots (the larger of the two) and the larger of the two is the gross game, that means the lowest handicap player can NEVER win the Net pot, not because he can't get the lowest net score, but because for the lowest handicap player to have the lowest net score, he would also have to have the lowest gross score.

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by larrybud

[Shilgy]

21 hours ago, larrybud said:

You're missing the point in this example though. If a player can only win 1 of the pots (the larger of the two) and the larger of the two is the gross game, that means the lowest handicap player can NEVER win the Net pot, not because he can't get the lowest net score, but because for the lowest handicap player to have the lowest net score, he would also have to have the lowest gross score.

 

Not if someone else had a lower gross score and he was then low net. Yes, the other guy would have a lower net but you can only win one prize.

[larrybud]

7 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Not if someone else had a lower gross score and he was then low net. Yes, the other guy would have a lower net but you can only win one prize.

If you're the LOW MAN IN THE GROUP you cannot have Low Net but NOT low gross. It's mathematically impossible.

 

[Shilgy]

49 minutes ago, larrybud said:

If you're the LOW MAN IN THE GROUP you cannot have Low Net but NOT low gross. It's mathematically impossible.

 

Let’s do the math and see if I am wrong. Scratch guy shoots 70 for a net 70. One handicap shoots 69. His net 68 DOES NOT MATTER because he can only win the larger pot which I recall was the gross game. Next best net is a 71.  Who wins net in that scenario?

Edited November 17, 2021 by Shilgy

[Purple Toupee]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Let’s do the math and see if I am wrong. Scratch guy shoots 70 for a net 70. One handicap shoots 69. His net 68 DOES NOT MATTER because he can only win the larger pot which I recall was the gross game. Next best net is a 71.  Who wins net in that scenario?

He’s talking about skins, not the overall score. And my understanding is there just wouldn’t be a net winner on that hole if it happened the way you described it. The net skin would carry over.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Purple Toupee

[Shilgy]

12 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

He’s talking about skins, not the overall score. And my understanding is there just wouldn’t be a net winner on that hole if it happened the way you described it. The net skin would carry over.

Pretty sure we were talking score for the round. But for a hole the same could be true couldn’t it? One handicap eagles #1 handicap hole and scratch makes birdie. No one else makes par the scratch gets net skin. That can happen on a difficult hole.

And why would the net skin carry over in your scenario? A player can only win gross or net and they are paying gross first and then net. Had a clear winner on both why would there be a carryover?

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Pretty sure we were talking score for the round. But for a hole the same could be true couldn’t it? One handicap eagles #1 handicap hole and scratch makes birdie. No one else makes par the scratch gets net skin. That can happen on a difficult hole.

And why would the net skin carry over in your scenario? A player can only win gross or net and they are paying gross first and then net. Had a clear winner on both why would there be a carryover?

 

Take a look at the title and the OP. Not sure about anyone else but larrybud seems to be ONLY talking about net and gross skins.

 

But let's see if I've got this right. Let's take that "1" you're talking about making birdie/net eagle on his only stroke hole.

 

Since it is his ONLY stroke hole AND everybody else is getting a shot there as well (#1 cap hole) his eagle would be a NET skin but his natural birdie would ALSO win the GROSS skin and he, nor anyone else, can win BOTH on the same hole.

 

Any other skin this "1" wins would also have to be a GROSS skin AND a NET skin,,,,,,,, but he can't win both.

 

So say he makes the only natural birdie on some other hole and 1 other person makes par/net birdie on the same hole. Our "1" wins the GROSS skin on that hole and the other guy wins the NET skin on that hole.

 

i.e. the LOW cap can ONLY win a GROSS skin; NEVER a net skin.

 

So since he can only win a skin on a hole where he has the SINGLE best GROSS score, there's no reason for him to pay to be in the NET skin pool.

 

A "2" in this same game can only win a NET skin on the hole where your "1" guy made birdie/eagle. The "2" makes par/net birdie and NOBODY else makes par there.

 

Q - If these 2 guys BOTH make birdie/eagle on the #1 'cap hole would 1 win the net and the other the gross ? Would they have halved both ? IDK. If they were both ONLY in the gross pool they would've halved that pool for sure. But if they're in both ?

 

But IF they're in BOTH pools, #1 wins the GROSS and #2 wins the NET (or vice versa) but on all the other holes the "2" has the same issue as the "1" against the rest of the field.

 

The next best guys by handicap would seem to have similar issues but do have at least a chance to win a net skin.

 

So net-net, it seems to me that as the handicap (& stroke holes) go up the more chances they (higher caps) have to win a net skin and the less chance the lower caps have to win a net skin.

 

Brought to you by the mind that thought "denial" WAS just a river in Egypt.

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Pretty sure we were talking score for the round. But for a hole the same could be true couldn’t it? One handicap eagles #1 handicap hole and scratch makes birdie. No one else makes par the scratch gets net skin. That can happen on a difficult hole.

And why would the net skin carry over in your scenario? A player can only win gross or net and they are paying gross first and then net. Had a clear winner on both why would there be a carryover?

If the scratch made eagle on par 5 not getting any stokes and then a player with a stoke made Bridie - they both score 'net' 3 so the net skin carries over.

 

The scratch would win the gross skin and no one would win the net skin.

[Purple Toupee]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Pretty sure we were talking score for the round. But for a hole the same could be true couldn’t it? One handicap eagles #1 handicap hole and scratch makes birdie. No one else makes par the scratch gets net skin. That can happen on a difficult hole.

And why would the net skin carry over in your scenario? A player can only win gross or net and they are paying gross first and then net. Had a clear winner on both why would there be a carryover?

He’s definitely talking about skins, not score for the round.  I don’t know how they’re playing it, but if the one handicap wins both net and gross skins on a hole, he’s going to take the gross if he can’t have both.  Why would they give the net skin to the second place person? He didn’t win it, it should just carry over.  But maybe they do, I don’t know.

 

Even if he could win a net skin that way, that is going to be a pretty rare event, and the low cap is still getting screwed overall.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Purple Toupee

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

If the scratch made eagle on par 5 not getting any stokes and then a player with a stoke made Bridie - they both score 'net' 3 so the net skin carries over.

 

The scratch would win the gross skin and no one would win the net skin.

I guess I was not clear……in the skins format discussed….where gross is paid first and net after with gross paying more…..it was asserted the lowest handicap player could NEVER WIN NET(not my shout by the way just quoting the earlier post😏) .  If another player eagles a hole and the low guy birdies it…..and no one makes net birdie to tie the net….wouldn’t the eagle win gross and the birdie get net?  So low guy CAN win a net.  Geez….it’s not even A far fetched example.

[2bGood]

30 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I guess I was not clear……in the skins format discussed….where gross is paid first and net after with gross paying more…..it was asserted the lowest handicap player could NEVER WIN NET(not my shout by the way just quoting the earlier post😏) .  If another player eagles a hole and the low guy birdies it…..and no one makes net birdie to tie the net….wouldn’t the eagle win gross and the birdie get net?  So low guy CAN win a net.  Geez….it’s not even A far fetched example.

Yes you are correct - they can win the net skin, by having the second lowest gross score on any hole. It is not going to be super common but is possible. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by 2bGood

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

Yes you are correct - they can win the net skin, by having the second lowest gross score on any hole. It is not going to be super common but is possible. 

So you’re saying’ there’s a chance?🤔. The “can’t win both” is the part that is really odd in the op’s game imo.  

[Purple Toupee]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

So you’re saying’ there’s a chance?🤔. The “can’t win both” is the part that is really odd in the op’s game imo.  

If you think they’re paying out skins to the person who came in second, then yes it is possible.  My experience has been you have to win the skin to get it.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

If you think they’re paying out skins to the person who came in second, then yes it is possible.  My experience has been you have to win the skin to get it.

Not if there is a gross and net on every hole.  Or do you think the low gross can cut the net….even though he cannot win it?  The way I read it the low gross guy cannot win net on the same hole. So he is eliminated from the low net on that hole.  If there is only one guy with the low net-after removing the other guy- does he not win the skin? 
In this case you can win a skin and not get it.

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So you’re saying’ there’s a chance?🤔. The “can’t win both” is the part that is really odd in the op’s game imo.  

Yes saying there is chance. I assume the OP did not run the scenarios as the reality is the low caper can win a net skin, but it is highly unlikely.