The Future of Golf

[akronswitness]

3 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

 

 

You sound bitter, like an old steel and iron worker or a woman scorned. 

You got family that worked in the foundries?   

 

There was a guy here that posted on the forum for a while.  He worked six days a week in a foundry to put food on the table and support his kids.  He loved golf and spoke highly of the courses in Ohio and Pennsylvania.  He told us he didn't have money to burn like the office workers and corporate magnates that posted here, and often complained about the cost of golf.  The difference between that guy and you is that he had a basis to his argument.  You're just pointing fingers and making outrageous claims. 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

What is your post even about? Did you read my post about ideas for course improvements to retain/grow golf at a sustainable rate or was that too much work?

 

The argument is about making golf more inclusive and easily accessible something that it clearly has a problem with--not entirely the cost (eventhough that is a huge problem as well). I also mentioned, by fact, that golf has been dying with decreasing participation for 20 years only to be saved temporarily by a global pandemic. There has already been a 4% decrease in golfers between 2020 and 2021. There are actual numbers to back that claim up--this is not a opinion since you clearly mistook it for one.

 

You cant say golf is growing and doing great when I can personally cite multiple examples of local courses going bankrupt and closing in the past 2 years along with golf participation dropping by millions since the 2020 pandemic high. Again, thats a fact--not a opinion. Im telling you whats actually happening, not what you think is happening. If you choose to ignore that and go full old man yelling at the clouds than that is a you problem and frankly, people who think like that are a part of the problem. 

If you dont think there is a real issue happening that can only be addressed by getting golf course operators out of the stone age of traditionalism and into the 21st century--then here are more facts:

 

Closures have exceeded 100 "18-hole equivalents" every year since 2006 and at least 150 every year since 2011, statistics that are seen as a "market correction". Since 2006, the cumulative reduction in the number of U.S. golf courses is roughly 8%. ... The trend of golf course closings continued in 2019.

 

If I do the math correctly, that means at a bare minimim 2,250 18 hole golf courses closed around the country since 2006. Realistically closer to 2,500+ with almost 5% of peoples precious pandemic golf community already out the door after 1 season.

 

So now we can start back at the beginning--what do you think of my ideas of having local courses partner with community schools and offer kids programs to get more people into golf at a young age? What about offering beginner only leagues 1 night a week where people can come and learn with people who are also starting out? What about taking a page out of TopGolf's 2 BILLION dollar book and start introducing night golf/glow golf in the summer? What about college ID night where its cheaper for college students?

 

The first halfway nice public golf course to incorporate ideas like this are going to be the wealthiest and most popular course in the area.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by akronswitness

[Kmagnuss]

2 hours ago, david.c.w said:

 

I understand what you are saying, but your comment is not just golf related, is is any sport related.  Muni par 3's are $15 ($18 on the weekends).  You are looking at a max of $75 a month to play once a week.  Cheap/used balls can be found.  Equipment can be found at goodwill or play-it-again sports.  You may need to keeps looking, but it can be found.  These costs are similar, if not cheaper, than football, baseball, soccer, volleyball, tennis.

 

So while agree that if you don't have $3 for milk or bread, you are not playing golf, but you are also not playing any other organized sport.

Sorry but this just isn't true at all.

You can join a pick up game of basketball in any city in the world and it doesn't cost you a cent.  You can play barefoot if you have to.  Same for soccer.  This is why these two sports absolutely dominate in less fortunate regions... cost of entry is zero dollars.

 

-Mag

[klebs01]

21 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

What is your post even about? Did you read my post about ideas for course improvements to retain/grow golf at a sustainable rate or was that too much work?

 

The argument is about making golf more inclusive and easily accessible something that it clearly has a problem with--not entirely the cost (eventhough that is a huge problem as well). I also mentioned, by fact, that golf has been dying with decreasing participation for 20 years only to be saved temporarily by a global pandemic. There has already been a 4% decrease in golfers between 2020 and 2021. There are actual numbers to back that claim up--this is not a opinion since you clearly mistook it for one.

 

You cant say golf is growing and doing great when I can personally cite multiple examples of local courses going bankrupt and closing in the past 2 years along with golf participation dropping by millions since the 2020 pandemic high. Again, thats a fact--not a opinion. Im telling you whats actually happening, not what you think is happening. If you choose to ignore that and go full tight pants boomer, than that is a you problem and frankly, people who think like that are a part of the problem. 

If you dont think there is a real issue happening that can only be addressed by getting golf course operators out of the stone age of traditionalism and into the 21st century--then here are more facts:

 

Closures have exceeded 100 "18-hole equivalents" every year since 2006 and at least 150 every year since 2011, statistics that are seen as a "market correction". Since 2006, the cumulative reduction in the number of U.S. golf courses is roughly 8%. ... The trend of golf course closings continued in 2019.

 

So now we can start back at the beginning--what do you think of my ideas of having local courses partner with community schools and offer kids programs to get more people into golf at a young age? What about offering beginner only leagues 1 night a week where people can come and learn with people who are also starting out? What about taking a page out of TopGolf's 2 BILLION dollar book and start introducing night golf/glow golf in the summer? What about college ID night where its cheaper for college students?

 

The first halfway nice public golf course to incorporate ideas like this are going to be the wealthiest and most popular course in the area.

 

You are claiming it’s temporary which may or may not be true. Your starting point is also at the height of the previous temporary boom. If you look back further, golf is in a fine spot. 
 

Looking at course closures, what are the demographic changes of those locations? Were the courses closing part of a housing development that couldn’t sustain the course? Your stats don’t provide enough information to understand the underlying causes. 
 

Finally, nothing proposed is new. It’s all been tried and failed or is in existence now. Plenty of cheap courses available to play barefoot, in jeans drinking a beer. Those places tend to be cheap too. 

[Ferguson]

28 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

What is your post even about? Did you read my post about ideas for course improvements to retain/grow golf at a sustainable rate or was that too much work?

 

The argument is about making golf more inclusive and easily accessible something that it clearly has a problem with--not entirely the cost (eventhough that is a huge problem as well). I also mentioned, by fact, that golf has been dying with decreasing participation for 20 years only to be saved temporarily by a global pandemic. There has already been a 4% decrease in golfers between 2020 and 2021. There are actual numbers to back that claim up--this is not a opinion since you clearly mistook it for one.

 

You cant say golf is growing and doing great when I can personally cite multiple examples of local courses going bankrupt and closing in the past 2 years along with golf participation dropping by millions since the 2020 pandemic high. Again, thats a fact--not a opinion. Im telling you whats actually happening, not what you think is happening. If you choose to ignore that and go full old man yelling at the clouds than that is a you problem and frankly, people who think like that are a part of the problem. 

If you dont think there is a real issue happening that can only be addressed by getting golf course operators out of the stone age of traditionalism and into the 21st century--then here are more facts:

 

Closures have exceeded 100 "18-hole equivalents" every year since 2006 and at least 150 every year since 2011, statistics that are seen as a "market correction". Since 2006, the cumulative reduction in the number of U.S. golf courses is roughly 8%. ... The trend of golf course closings continued in 2019.

 

If I do the math correctly, that means at a bare minimim 2,250 18 hole golf courses closed around the country since 2006. Realistically closer to 2,500+ with almost 5% of peoples precious pandemic golf community already out the door after 1 season.

 

So now we can start back at the beginning--what do you think of my ideas of having local courses partner with community schools and offer kids programs to get more people into golf at a young age? What about offering beginner only leagues 1 night a week where people can come and learn with people who are also starting out? What about taking a page out of TopGolf's 2 BILLION dollar book and start introducing night golf/glow golf in the summer? What about college ID night where its cheaper for college students?

 

The first halfway nice public golf course to incorporate ideas like this are going to be the wealthiest and most popular course in the area.

 

 

We must look at the inflection point. 

 

For many in the golf industry, it was unclear if the growth seen in 2020 was a function of the pandemic or a new inflection point for the sport.  Through the end of July — the peak of golf season in the U.S. — the number of rounds played in 2021 was up 16.1% compared to 2020, according to data from the NGF. While the July-specific figures were down 3.1% compared to 2020, a month in which nearly all golf courses had been reopened following pandemic closures in certain states, the 2021 numbers are significantly higher than previous year averages.  While those increases are being mainly driven by older, already passionate golfers — the average number of rounds played by golfers grew to 20.2 in 2020, an all-time high since NGF started tracking that statistic in 1998 — younger golfers, and especially female players, saw significant upticks.  Donald J. Rickerston states,  “New participants are increasingly younger; they’re hooked on the game and they want to get better,” David Maher, CEO of golf conglomerate Acushnet Holdings, said on the company’s second-quarter earnings call with analysts in August. “A lot of the energy is coming from avid dedicated players who are simply playing more and consistently; more juniors, more women, more younger [players], and more families.”

 

 

 

If you want to read a good book, please try:  

Foundry Work: A View of the Industry 

by Michael Schultz

 

 

[akronswitness]

15 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

You are claiming it’s temporary which may or may not be true. Your starting point is also at the height of the previous temporary boom. If you look back further, golf is in a fine spot. 
 

Looking at course closures, what are the demographic changes of those locations? Were the courses closing part of a housing development that couldn’t sustain the course? Your stats don’t provide enough information to understand the underlying causes. 
 

Finally, nothing proposed is new. It’s all been tried and failed or is in existence now. Plenty of cheap courses available to play barefoot, in jeans drinking a beer. Those places tend to be cheap too. 

 

Going by the evidence of there being a 5% down turn since the pandemic boom of 2020 in just 1 season, coupled with the fact that golf saw its first rise in participants in 14 years in 2020--its easy to see where this is headed by just following historical trends in the industry. I would be surprised is 3M of those 24M new golfers from 2020 are still playing golf in 2025. 

 

Golf boomed in 2000 thanks to 1 person. Tiger Woods. It has been a steady decline from that high ever since 2003-2005. Golf boomed again thanks to 1 thing in 2020. Covid-19. Its already declining in participation 1 year later.

 

My whole point of this thread was to make points on how the golf industry can better retain all of those new golfers and not let them slide into oblivion like the people from Tigers boom did.....and it starts with local golf courses changing how they do business or they can keep closing at a 6%+ rate every year around the country.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by akronswitness

[klebs01]

Just now, akronswitness said:

 

Going by the evidence of there being a 5% down turn since the pandemic boom of 2020 in just 1 season, coupled with the fact that golf saw its first rise in participants in 14 years in 2020--its easy to see where this is headed by just following historical trends in the industry. I would be surprised is 3M of those 24M new golfers from 2020 are still playing golf in 2025. 

 

Golf boomed in 2000 thanks to 1 person. Tiger Woods. It has been a steady decline from that high ever since 2003-2005. Golf boomed again thanks to 1 thing in 2020. Covid-19. Its already declining in participation 1 year later.

 

My whole point of this thread was to make points on how the golf industry can better retain all of those new golfers and not let them slide into oblivion like the people from Tigers boom did.

 

 

So, if you measure from 1980 or 1990, what does the trend do?  There are going to be ups and downs. The most likely answer is that there is nothing that can be done to retain a chunk of the COVID boom people. Chasing the new golfers or low round per year golfers at the expense of the avid golfers is probably a losing proposition 

[akronswitness]

21 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

So, if you measure from 1980 or 1990, what does the trend do?  There are going to be ups and downs. The most likely answer is that there is nothing that can be done to retain a chunk of the COVID boom people. Chasing the new golfers or low round per year golfers at the expense of the avid golfers is probably a losing proposition 

 

I would say that it is generational and golf popularity from 1960-2000 was a indicator of boomers who wont be physically able to play golf for much longer, which further emphasizes my point of needing the new generation of millennials/gen-z to take more of a interest and carry the sport on. Which judging by its downward trend the past 15 years, isnt happening.

 

Only 35% of active golfers are under the age of 40. So 10-40 years old make up 35% of golfers and 41-79 year olds make up 65% of golfers.

 

Notice the generation difference there? Thats my concern about whats going to happen in the next 5-10 years when the pandemic golfer boom is all gone and boomers retire from the sport. There is a cliff coming and golf is going to take a nosedive off of it. Again, going back to my point of golf courses needing to make it easier for new players to join and be creative with it.

 

It is far too difficult and intimidating to 'get into' golf. From cost, to course closings, to the traditionist mindset courses carry with themselves, to lack of GAF about getting young kids involved, ect.

Edited February 8, 2022 by akronswitness

[elwhippy]

Golf needs to look at its costs and who it is attracting to the game. Wages are going nowhere, cost of living rising and by some twist of fate golf clubs, especially irons and wedges jumping in price. Green fees now out of the reach of the average player (UK not US Country Club fraternity). Standards have slipped in a lot of clubs...visible tattoos, language, etiquette on the course, dress codes got too relaxed. My late father would weep at some of the members who play at my club in 2022.  

[david.c.w]

52 minutes ago, Kmagnuss said:

Sorry but this just isn't true at all.

You can join a pick up game of basketball in any city in the world and it doesn't cost you a cent.  You can play barefoot if you have to.  Same for soccer.  This is why these two sports absolutely dominate in less fortunate regions... cost of entry is zero dollars.

 

-Mag

You are taking this to the extreme extreme.  Can you play basketball barefoot?  Yes, but only in a 3rd world country.  Go find me a person tonight playing hoops with no shoes on.  We are talking about youth sports in America (or at least I am).  Even church gyms have access or league fees.  There are very little totally no-cost options for any sport.  

[akronswitness]

24 minutes ago, elwhippy said:

Golf needs to look at its costs and who it is attracting to the game. Wages are going nowhere, cost of living rising and by some twist of fate golf clubs, especially irons and wedges jumping in price. Green fees now out of the reach of the average player (UK not US Country Club fraternity). Standards have slipped in a lot of clubs...visible tattoos, language, etiquette on the course, dress codes got too relaxed. My late father would weep at some of the members who play at my club in 2022.  

 

Agreed. The cost of golf clubs/equipment is absurd and Im not how anybody who doesnt make $250k+ per year can think otherwise. You can go buy used everything at Golf Galaxy and it will still cost you $2,000 to get your foot in the door with game improvement equipment. Whats the other option? Go rent clubs if courses even offer that and pay inflated green fees? Spend $120+ to go try something your not even sure you will like for the first time with no instruction from anybody?

 

I can deal with the visible tattoos and language--that doesnt effect me. In fact when I hear some 50+ year old hozelrocket their ball off a tree in their buddys golf league and yell **** its hilarious.  

 

The general golf etiquette things and the standard dress code need to be enforced, however. That goes back to nobody telling 1/2 these people or teaching half these people what to do. There should be a starter at every course that runs through the general rules before teeing off. That doesnt happen at 80% of courses.

 

It would take somebody 60 seconds to tell each group "Replace all divots, rake all bunkers, keep music to a minimum, let people behind you play through. ect "   But they dont.

Edited February 8, 2022 by akronswitness

[Kmagnuss]

26 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

You are taking this to the extreme extreme.  Can you play basketball barefoot?  Yes, but only in a 3rd world country.  Go find me a person tonight playing hoops with no shoes on.  We are talking about youth sports in America (or at least I am).  Even church gyms have access or league fees.  There are very little totally no-cost options for any sport.  

You're comparing apples and oranges.  Show me a kid in the usa that doesn't have shoes.  Now that that is done, let's stop comparing a kid trying to play golf for the first time to a kid playing in a league sport.  Two totally different things.  The correct comparison is a kid playing golf for the first time compared to one who goes to a local basketball court to shoot hoops with a friend.  Do you see the difference?  So yes, you can with 100% certainty go play basketball with zero dollars invested.  Hence, part of why the sport is so popular in some regions.

[MtlJeff]

1 hour ago, Kmagnuss said:

Sorry but this just isn't true at all.

You can join a pick up game of basketball in any city in the world and it doesn't cost you a cent.  You can play barefoot if you have to.  Same for soccer.  This is why these two sports absolutely dominate in less fortunate regions... cost of entry is zero dollars.

 

-Mag

 

Less fortunate regions yes, other places no. I would argue it's cheaper to get your son/daughter into golf than it is soccer TBH, at least here. Your kid isn't going to be happy playing barefoot in the park in Canada. And leagues are like the Mafia here, you have to start your kids at like 5, they play indoors, outdoors, registration fees, equipment, if they become decent and play intercity there are road trips and tournaments. I played regional soccer growing up, the cost of one away tournament would be more than the entire season's cost of golf.

 

You can get a 12yr old into golf here for the cost of an adult membership (3999$ ~ around here + the kids membership which will be ~1500$). Equipment can last a few years and there's no overnight tournaments at that age unless they are superstars. It's not nothing , it's not "cheap". But you can spend a few G notes on one away tournament in soccer even for basic intercity.

[aenemated]

20 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

I can deal with the visible tattoos

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, akronswitness said:

 

Edited out irrelevant material.

 

 

 

You are not quoting from current information in your original post and it is intentionally misleading. Premise is wrong, no reason to go further and the endless posts about solutions when you can't identify any real problem are pointless.

 

Some facts that are counter to your claims.  

 

For the fourth straight year the the total number of golfers increased. ('18,'19,'20,'21 - all increases, a couple of them at or near record levels).  I'm getting this from the NGF - I assume but don't know you are using NGF numbers from pre-2018 because they support the point you want to make, but that is misleading.  Your claim the total has decreased consistently every year is false.

 

Indicators for beginners (record last year of 3 million), youth (up 25% past three years), women/minorities (up significantly the past 5 years) all show overall positives in terms of recent trends. 

 

Sounds like golf is in good hands.  Plenty of good work to continue.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Hawkeye77

[MtlJeff]

28 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

Agreed. The cost of golf clubs/equipment is absurd and Im not how anybody who doesnt make $250k+ per year can think otherwise. You can go buy used everything at Golf Galaxy and it will still cost you $2,000 to get your foot in the door with game improvement equipment. Whats the other option? Go rent clubs if courses even offer that and pay inflated green fees? Spend $120+ to go try something your not even sure you will like for the first time with no instruction from anybody?

 

I can deal with the visible tattoos and language--that doesnt effect me. In fact when I hear some 50+ year old hozelrocket their ball off a tree in their buddys golf league and yell **** its hilarious.  

 

The general golf etiquette things and the standard dress code need to be enforced, however. That goes back to nobody telling 1/2 these people or teaching half these people what to do. There should be a starter at every course that runs through the general rules before teeing off. That doesnt happen at 80% of courses.

 

It would take somebody 60 seconds to tell each group "Replace all divots, rake all bunkers, keep music to a minimum, let people behind you play through. ect "   But they dont.

 

This is just not accurate. When i first became a member here in 2008 i made less than 1/3rd of that salary (in canadian dollars) and had some pretty nice stuff. I wasn't making it rain in the pro shops like i do now , but websites like Callaway Pre-owned you can get borderline new stuff for less than 1/2 price. Back then there was Ebay. You just have to know how to shop

 

Now if you made 60-70K with 3 kids and a wife who doesn't work...yeah maybe golf isn't for you. But you probably aren't doing much of anything other than yell and drink heavily.

 

But 250K? cmon. Maybe in San Francisco or San Jose. You can make 70K with a girlfriend and no kids and have a lot of disposable money.

[akronswitness]

16 minutes ago, aenemated said:

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

lol I mean I know a lot of people with tattoos and Ive never once thought 'oh man what are you going to do on the golf course?!"

[Pepperturbo]

I get tired of national stats being misused to manipulate the uneducated golfing population.  Golf and whether it is doing well or not is Regionally driven.  Golf economy expands and contracts.

 

If you're in an area that is economically weakened, public golf courses, restaurants, even some private clubs, and everything else that feeds off disposable income will be challenged in that region.  If you're in Southern California, as I am, where we see full tee sheets regardless of tee time spread, and private clubs running with 3/4 membership rosters, and people signing up - all is relatively good.  That means the local population count and jobs reflects disposable income.  Look to the region, NOT the implied baloney fluttered about by golf rag writers that haven't a clue as to proper measuring, or the article is driven by an unshared bias.

[aenemated]

3 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

lol I mean I know a lot of people with tattoos and Ive never once thought 'oh man what are you going to do on the golf course?!"

 

Heh One of my favorite times was the first time I played Spyglass back in 2014. Got grouped with 3 fellas; clearly old friends and super nice guys. Really had a blast with them that round. 

 

But yeah, don't tend to see a whole lot of folks that look like me somewhere like that. We were getting along and having a fun round (as fun as Spyglass can be ... man, that's a tough track) and one of them rolls up to me on I think #5 tee and says "We've got a bet going to figure out who you are."

 

I just laughed and was like "What's the bet?" "Either you're in some rock band we've never heard of or you're on one of those tattoo shows." 

 

"If you're all wrong, do I win?"

"Sure."

"I'm a software developer. Been playing golf since I was like 8 though."

 

Won a whole $15 on that. 😂

[david.c.w]

42 minutes ago, Kmagnuss said:

You're comparing apples and oranges.  Show me a kid in the usa that doesn't have shoes.  Now that that is done, let's stop comparing a kid trying to play golf for the first time to a kid playing in a league sport.  Two totally different things.  The correct comparison is a kid playing golf for the first time compared to one who goes to a local basketball court to shoot hoops with a friend.  Do you see the difference?  So yes, you can with 100% certainty go play basketball with zero dollars invested.  Hence, part of why the sport is so popular in some regions.

 

Will have to agree to disagree.  Shooting hoops with a friend is not "playing basketball".  A kid can get into golf for the same price as a baseball or soccer or basketball league.  

 

Ebay can get you full setup for under $200, and even under $100 (youth golf starter set in Golf Clubs | eBay).

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, akronswitness said:

 

Agreed. The cost of golf clubs/equipment is absurd and Im not how anybody who doesnt make $250k+ per year can think otherwise. You can go buy used everything at Golf Galaxy and it will still cost you $2,000 to get your foot in the door with game improvement equipment.

 

LOL, this isn't close to true either.  Without even trying hard I could easily outfit someone with the whole "schmear" for less than $1000 who wants to get a start in golf with a really nice bag, clubs and balls.  Lots of cheaper and good options out there beyond what I would come up with that would do just fine. And plenty of folks buy new because that's their priority with their money and more power to them.

 

The $250k is so obviously wrong and pulled out of who knows where it's not worth discussing.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Hawkeye77

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, akronswitness said:

The cost of golf clubs/equipment is absurd and Im not how anybody who doesnt make $250k+ per year can think otherwise. You can go buy used everything at Golf Galaxy and it will still cost you $2,000 to get your foot in the door with game improvement equipment. Whats the other option? Go rent clubs if courses even offer that and pay inflated green fees? Spend $120+ to go try something your not even sure you will like for the first time with no instruction from anybody?

Do you even play golf? 

 

There's a prevailing belief that golf should be an every man's sport; that is baloney.  Like every man can't afford to own a P-car, but a used Toyota is in range.  If a person can't afford decent used equipment he/she probably can't afford range practice, teacher or to play golf.  Golf has always been comparatively expensive.

 

Yes, my full bag of clubs costs 5k+.  But buying used at the LGS is like buying a used car at a dealer... for lazy suckers.  There is far higher margin of profit in used at LGS than purchased privately on eBay.  I could put together a full set of slightly used irons, woods, and a bag for under 1k.  Just sayin...

Edited February 8, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[toddbournes]

I live in middle tn. Course here are packed. Prices are up. Cost of used clubs, golf carts, etc are high. Catch a 50° sunny day in February and you can’t get on a course. Hate to say it but the game doesn’t need any growing here. Courses near me aren’t really even doing winter or twilight rates anymore. They don’t have to. I don’t mind a little music while I’m playing but we keep it down low enough you have to be within 20 feet of the cart to hear it and always ask if it bothers any of our group. Pace of play with all the new golfers is the biggest issue I see. I don’t know if it’s because they see the pros on tv or what but it’s common for ppl to take forever once the reach the green. 

[bobfoster]

5 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

I get tired of national stats being misused to manipulate the uneducated golfing population.  Golf and whether it is doing well or not is Regionally driven.  Golf economy expands and contracts.

 

If you're in an area that is economically weakened, public golf courses, restaurants, even some private clubs, and everything else that feeds off disposable income will be challenged in that region.  If you're in Southern California, as I am, where we see full tee sheets regardless of tee time spread, and private clubs running with 3/4 membership rosters, and people signing up - all is relatively good.  That means the local population count and jobs reflects disposable income.  Look to the region, NOT the implied baloney fluttered about by golf rag writers that haven't a clue as to proper measuring, or the article is driven by an unshared bias.

Spot on correct. (I've got a minor in econometrics - and am continually awed at market statistics being poorly, or selectively used to prove a conclusion someone has already reached.) Pulling a handful of carefully chosen, often only partially defined stats, and declaring that as a result one's conclusion is a "fact" that can't be argued with is a well known rhetorical tactic that often works, but doesn't at all mean it is the truth. 

 

Anyone that really wants to understand a market (like golf) can certainly start with a hypothesis, and go out and find stats that verify the hypothesis - but an honest investigator (and any good scientist or businessperson in any realm) is one who looks equally hard for evidence that disproves their thesis. 

 

For instance, take the line "Only 35% of active golfers are under the age of 40. So 10-40 years old make up 35% of golfers and 41-79 year olds make up 65% of golfers."

 

Sounds dramatic right? Golf is in trouble! But unpack that. One group is 10 - 40, a total of 30 years. The other 41 - 79. 38 years. That simply is not comparing apples to apples. Out of a total of 69 years (10 - 79), he doesn't split younger/older in half at 34.5 ... the first group contains 55% of the population, the second group 45%. Of course one will have a larger number than the other. Almost a deliberate distortion to attempt to make a point.

 

Further, the remaining difference in age distribution is easily explained. Every sport has its average age. Golf has always skewed older, for several reasons. It is relatively more expensive - a 25 year old with an entry level salary, starting a family, and college debt will be less able to afford it than a 45 - 50 year old mid career guy who's salary is peaking and who's kids have moved out.

 

And ... you can play it until an advanced age. Few 55 years olds are going to be still playing basketball. 60 year olds don't play soccer. The number of people still playing tennis at 65 is much less than those playing at 25. The back, knees, and stamina decline with age. But I was still enjoying golf with my Dad when he was 80. I know quite a few people that didn't take up golf until middle age - many moving to it from other sports after they became physically harder to play. The average age of US golfers is around 54, and that number has stayed pretty consistent over time.

 

As for opposing stats? Around 24 MM people played at least a round of golf in 2011. Around 24 MM played at least a round in 2021. The number of people playing in their 30s is almost identical to the number of people playing in their 60s.

 

So the foundational numbers the OP used to assert that golf has to change to face a coming "crisis" were selectively picked, even distorted, and simply don't tell the truth of golf. 

 

I'm probably sounding a bit harsher towards the OP than is my norm, but my econ professors would be absolutely livid if they read this thread. As Mark Twain said, "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Edited February 9, 2022 by bobfoster

[Soloman1]

I really loved the snide remark from the OP about 50 year-old golfers.

 

You want some stats?

50+ year olds are 61% of golfers

They contribute 53% to all golf spending

They play 50% of all rounds.

 

You can pound sand with the snide remarks about 50+ year-old golfers.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Soloman1

[akronswitness]

16 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Do you even play golf? 

 

There's a prevailing belief that golf should be an every man's sport; that is baloney.  Like every man can't afford to own a P-car, but a used Toyota is in range.  If a person can't afford decent used equipment he/she probably can't afford range practice, teacher or to play golf.  Golf has always been comparatively expensive.

 

Yes, my full bag of clubs costs 5k+.  But buying used at the LGS is like buying a used car at a dealer... for lazy suckers.  There is far higher margin of profit in used at LGS than purchased privately on eBay.  I could put together a full set of slightly used irons, woods, and a bag for under 1k.  Just sayin...

 

1) No never golfed in my life I just love coming on niche message boards and chatting with a bunch of random guys about the sport.

2) Your second statement is literally my point in whats is clearly wrong with the sport.

 

A sport that recognizes itself as exclusive, traditional and generally not accepting to others...is a problem. This isnt 1962 anymore, the rules that applied 60+ years ago dont have to apply to today. Golf has lost 7M concurrent players since Tigers boom ended in 2006 and had dealt with over 2,000 course closures across the US in that same time, so the whopping 300k it gained from 2016-2018 without the help of a pandemic is a drop in a bucket. Thats like 100 customers walking out your door and getting excited that 5 of them came back in.

 

To use your analogy, this is like a Audi losing money every year over a 15 year time period and having to close 15-20% of their dealerships due to lack of demand in their vehicles only to receive a bailout by the government (covid) before their entire company goes under. After the government bailout Audi still wont change their business practice, philosophies, vehicle lineup as it relates to different audiences, ect.

 

How stupid would that be.....

 

3) If you want to go further into golfs outrageous pricing. It cost golf manufacturers on average $49 to make a set of irons, they sell that iron set for $1,200 retail. That is a 2,350% markup. It costs Porsche $33,000 to manufacture a lower end model vehicle and they sell them starting at around $55,000. That is a 66% markup. It costs Burton $150 to make a snowboard, they sell them starting out at around $400. That is a 166% markup.

 

Where does golf get away thinking they can mark their crap up over 2,000% and the majority of old head golfers will still buy it with a smile on their face and not ask any questions.

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by akronswitness

[akronswitness]

11 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

I really loved the snide remark from the OP about 50 year-old golfers.

 

You want some stats?

50+ year olds are 61% of golfers

They contribute 53% to all golf spending

They play 50% of all rounds.

 

You can pound sand with the snide remarks about 50+ year-old golfers.

 

Thats the problem I am referring to in my previous 12 posts!..............there are no new golfers. Is there a reading comprehension problem here?

Edited February 9, 2022 by akronswitness

[klebs01]

12 minutes ago, akronswitness said:

 

Thats the problem I am referring to in my previous 12 posts!..............there are no new golfers. Is there a reading comprehension problem here?

 

This statement is not true. There are new golfers. The quality of you analysis is very poor. It simply says that players left the game after one bubble and you propose that they will leave after this bubble. Nothing pointing to a longer term issue. You don’t address the 24% increase in courses from 1990 to 2000. It is likely they were over built in the last bubble and there is just normal correction occurring. You don’t address regional demographics which will greatly impact where courses are closing. You don’t address what type of courses were built and if it was ever a sustainable model or just a way to market lots and sell them at a higher price. You don’t address demographics impact on the number of people that have the time and resources to golf a lot (eg boomers retiring, millennials kids getting old enough to play as well, millennials moving out of cities to suburbs where access to golf is easier). You could also do a Pareto on rounds played or money spent golfing. There is likely to be a very long tail that really isn’t worth going after. Your seem to want to loose the 20% that keep the game going for the long tail that will never have much of an impact. 

[Bad9]

17 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

 

Less fortunate regions yes, other places no. I would argue it's cheaper to get your son/daughter into golf than it is soccer TBH, at least here. Your kid isn't going to be happy playing barefoot in the park in Canada. And leagues are like the Mafia here, you have to start your kids at like 5, they play indoors, outdoors, registration fees, equipment, if they become decent and play intercity there are road trips and tournaments. I played regional soccer growing up, the cost of one away tournament would be more than the entire season's cost of golf.

 

You can get a 12yr old into golf here for the cost of an adult membership (3999$ ~ around here + the kids membership which will be ~1500$). Equipment can last a few years and there's no overnight tournaments at that age unless they are superstars. It's not nothing , it's not "cheap". But you can spend a few G notes on one away tournament in soccer even for basic intercity.

 

Our junior membership id about $300 for the year, unlimited golf. Even if any of them travel to tournaments they are still was, way under what soccer parents play. Way less than the swim team pay ( I was shocked at what swimmers have to pay for swimming bibs) and many times less than what hockey parents pay (which is the snob sport here not golf).

[akronswitness]

31 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

 

This statement is not true. There are new golfers. The quality of you analysis is very poor. It simply says that players left the game after one bubble and you propose that they will leave after this bubble. Nothing pointing to a longer term issue. You don’t address the 24% increase in courses from 1990 to 2000. It is likely they were over built in the last bubble and there is just normal correction occurring. You don’t address regional demographics which will greatly impact where courses are closing. You don’t address what type of courses were built and if it was ever a sustainable model or just a way to market lots and sell them at a higher price. You don’t address demographics impact on the number of people that have the time and resources to golf a lot (eg boomers retiring, millennials kids getting old enough to play as well, millennials moving out of cities to suburbs where access to golf is easier). You could also do a Pareto on rounds played or money spent golfing. There is likely to be a very long tail that really isn’t worth going after. Your seem to want to loose the 20% that keep the game going for the long tail that will never have much of an impact. 

 

Is that not how trends work in industries? Analyze historical data to predict future tendencies? One of the most major factors in the first boom you were referring to was economic stability of the country, which um...couldnt be further from the case now. Parks and Recreation Services literally cites the financial wellness of middle class America as one of the leading contributors to that boom in the 80-90s, which resulted in more people playing and more courses getting built.

 

I also think you can classify the demographics you mentioned in 1 bucket and get to the bottom line. When things lose popularity for numerous reasons, the industry starts closing. Looking at the bottom line in all of it is really what you need to know. Golf went from being mildly inclusive in the 80s-90s because of the middle class becoming involved and its pretty clear that same contingent that arrived in that era--left it in 2006 and now golf is reverting back to its old traditional status of wealthy old men with too much time on their hands making up over 50% of the playing community. 

 

The vast majority of the 24M people that showed up because of Covid in 2020 were not new faces. They were the same group of people who made golf boom in the 90s the first time around dusting off their old clubs. They were 30-50 year olds that havent golfed since that Tiger boom getting back into the sport because they had time again with business closings, work from home enviornments and stimulus checks to do it.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by akronswitness

[Poor Mans Ty Webb]

In the midst of heated debate, I'd like to throw out my $0.02 in a totally different direction...course yardages.

 

I'm trying to get my wife into the game but we struggle to find affordable courses for her that play to an appropriate yardage for her skill level.  There are a few nicer courses that offer tees in the sub 4,000 range, but they are pricey for a beginner ($50+ per round) and they're at more intimidating places where others are going to get frustrated with our pace of play, hit into us, etc.

 

The two solidly priced municipal options run at 4800 and 5200 yards, respectively, and I think this is a bit too long for her (and, honestly, some male/youth beginners as well), so there's not really a good spot for her to get time on a course and figure things out.  These courses max out at 6800/6900 yards, but I hardly ever seen anyone playing these back tees.  My assumption is that most players who are really at that skill level are playing at better courses.

 

If the future of golf is to grow the game and make it more inclusive (I know people come down on different sides of this debate), I really think there should be more options for the hacks out there to have a place to go and enjoy themselves with yardages that give them a better chance to do so while they're learning the game.