The Future of Golf

[MrParr1Noid]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:12 AM, Soloman1 said:

Most people hate two things: the way things are and change.

 

“The Only Constant in Life Is Change.”   Heraclitus

[uitar9]

I'm 68 and I've only been golfing 10 years. In my area, we saw one muni close, one public close and turn into a subdivision and one in bankruptcy due to poor managemeant. Also seen two 18's built.

 

Pre covid, the economy was effecting the truly private courses as folks couldn't afford the private annual fees and so you could buy in to a private course on Kijiji for $2M-$6M a year without a share purchase.

 

JMHO-the boomer and Tiger effect created a lot of greed, including unsustainable residential housing courses. 

 

Golf isn't special. It isn't immune from supply and demand.

 

Its gonna benefit from covid...more rounds from existing golfers and bring in new blood. How long will that last. Until us boomers start dying off in greater numbers. Or another Tiger or Pandemic.

 

I know my wife and I and her BIL/partner are  helping the number of rounds.

[NoCalHack]

On 2/18/2022 at 8:08 PM, uitar9 said:

I'm 68 and I've only been golfing 10 years. In my area, we saw one muni close, one public close and turn into a subdivision and one in bankruptcy due to poor managemeant. Also seen two 18's built.

 

Pre covid, the economy was effecting the truly private courses as folks couldn't afford the private annual fees and so you could buy in to a private course on Kijiji for $2M-$6M a year without a share purchase.

 

JMHO-the boomer and Tiger effect created a lot of greed, including unsustainable residential housing courses. 

 

Golf isn't special. It isn't immune from supply and demand.

 

Its gonna benefit from covid...more rounds from existing golfers and bring in new blood. How long will that last. Until us boomers start dying off in greater numbers. Or another Tiger or Pandemic.

 

I know my wife and I and her BIL/partner are  helping the number of rounds.

 

That’s strange. In our area the game is booming I went the the local range twice last week during a warm spell in the east coast and had to wait for a spot. Even on a weekday afternoon. Pre-Covid half the spots were empty.  Some clubs have waitlists for the first time in 15 years 

 

Covid has made a big difference. We will see how sustainable it is.  But I see a lot of kids playing these days and they are the future of the game. More people are watching too and the purses, equipment earnings and other metrics bear that out. But it seems like the game is in good shape. But they should that advantage of the Covid bump and keep investing in programs to improve accessibility.  

[RoyalMustang]

A certain risk is selling of courses to developers. Land prices have become astronomical in urban areas!

 

Is golf expensive?  No, I wouldn't make that argument at all.  Where I live, the "blue collar folks either:

1) own several $15,000 snowmobiles, a $15,000 trailer to haul them, and a $60k truck to pull them with (gas-not cheap!)

2)own a $40-70k boat (mooring and gas)

3) own an expensive RV (gas and site/storage fees)

4) own a bunch of motorcycles (gas)

5) own a car that they track (tires/gas)

 

Seriously, golf is affordable compared to any of these.  In fact, the higher-income demographic people tend to participate in lower costs sports, such as 

-running (just shoes and calories)

-cycling (sure, you may buy a $2500 bike, but not much needed thereafter in terms of mainenance

-alpine skiing ($800 season pass and gas to get to the mountain-could spend a few hundred a year on gear unless you go crazy)

-nordic skiing (just gear and calories, $750 for top end gear)

-fly fishing (rod, flies, and waders)-maybe $1000 if you go big

 

Say you have the time to golf, and really want to play well (and live near a Muni)

yearly expenses:

play 6X a month at $25/pop, so $150, monthly, $1800/year

Buy a practice membership at $400/year

Buy some decent used clubs here for $750-they last for 3 years, so $250/year

8 lessons a year at $75/lesson, so $600

A pair of golf shoes yearly, $100

A nice pull cart that will last several years, amortized at $75/year

Muni, so no need for specialized clothes

 

At 72 rounds a year, that is $3,225 a year with all of the golf and instruction that one needs to get a GREAT handle on the sport.  

 

Sure, golf can cost tens or hundreds of thousands: a client I worked with flew his jet down to Bandon last summer.  It doesn't mean that you need a jet or to even play Bandon Dunes to be a golfer.  

 

If golf is inaccessible, it is from a intimidation standpoint as a beginner (not knowing the rules, not understanding how to swing a club).  It isn't from a pricing standpoint

 

Now, how will golf move past the COVID boom? Nobody knows. The sport is crazy popular right now.  Everyone understands that.  But it is a time suck and, unlike bowling, something that takes a lot of time to be decent at.  A bowler can learn technique, bowl 5 lines a week, and probably be up around 200 consistently.  A golfer isn't going to be breaking 85 when playing 2 hours a week.  

 

I would say time is the biggest constraint, and as we get busier and busier and are asked to do more at work and in our personal lives, it may get worse, not better

 

 

[RichieHunt]

I think there's more hope and optimism for the game in a long time.

 

For starters, watching the PGA Tour, particularly on a Sunday from March thru August (non-football season) is a fairly acceptable and popular thing to do for males in households across the country.  It's an easy way to spend your Sunday afternoon.  

 

There are also more people working from home since COVID.  This is important because golf really got hurt when it became no longer a viable option to entertain customers in the sales/banking business.  

 

Lastly, I do believe that PGA Toru gambling will become more and more popular.  Not only do we have Fantasy Golf, but also outright gambling on golf with things like head-to-head matchups.  It's any easy way to gamble and probably even more difficult to lose large sums of cash than say gambling on football.

 

These are things that draw interest in participating in the game and make golf more mainstream.  

 

But some of the issues still persist such as slow play, the difficulty of the game and the expense.  

 

 

 

 

RH

[uitar9]

On 3/12/2022 at 8:08 AM, RoyalMustang said:

Say you have the time to golf, and really want to play well (and live near a Muni)

yearly expenses:

play 6X a month at $25/pop, so $150, monthly, $1800/year

Buy a practice membership at $400/year

Buy some decent used clubs here for $750-they last for 3 years, so $250/year

8 lessons a year at $75/lesson, so $600

A pair of golf shoes yearly, $100

A nice pull cart that will last several years, amortized at $75/year

Muni, so no need for specialized clothes

 

At 72 rounds a year, that is $3,225 a year with all of the golf and instruction that one needs to get a GREAT handle on the sport.  

The wife and I spend about $5,000 annually for golf. We play munis locally and when we travel. I played 67 times, she played around the same. (9's/18's) Thats relatively cheap entertainment, per hour.

 

A friend of mine told me he was going downhill skiing this past Saturday. Between gas , food and day pass, he was gonna spend $400. For him.

 

Taking a family of 4 to a movie theatre plus snacks...hello

 

Plus all the toy costs that #RoyalMustang mentioned. 

 

Yes, golf has a bad rap from historic standards (Private, white males, exclusivity, the dress code , etc) 

 

Locally there sure are a lot of young folks I've met , during the pandemic, who took up golf because they could.

 

The future of golf will be interesting as there are a lot of other interests trying to get your money today, with many not requiring physical movement from the chair.

[MaccaRayDudley]

There are a lot of reasons for the decline in golf.  I would agree that cost and the time it takes to play golf are significant barriers but I think golf is also up against social change.  We now live in a very child centric world.  Many people spend their weekends taking children back and forth from their activities and simply don’t have the time to play golf (or other hobbies for that matter).  I’m not suggesting that is good or bad, but I think it is true. I was a member of a Country Club for several years (it went bust and closed).  I used to joke with one of my playing partners that we were the youngsters at the club (I was heading for 50 at the time and my playing partner was heading for 60).  It wasn’t really as much of a joke as we thought.  The vast majority of the members were retired or almost retired.  They were of a generation where it was acceptable for men to abandon there families for 5 hours on a Saturday to play golf and their kids are now grown up and don’t need them anymore.  
 

Golf clubs would be well served to have an executive 9 hole course (in addition to 18 holes) where the pace of play is ensured to be 2 hrs or less.  That would enable a lot more people to enjoy golf more often.  A proper executive course with par 4s and par 5s not a par 3 course.  Floodlit to allow evening play all year round.  Good standard of affordable public options and private options for those that want that.  Make it more convenient, more accessible and more affordable and more people will play.

 

I can’t say that I find courses to be over regulated.  In fact, the clubs I have been a member off actively didn’t regulate much at all for fear of losing members.  They didn’t do a good job of ensuring a reasonable pace of play (no more than 4 hours in my opinion) and allowed 5 ball groups at peak times, which would grind the course to a halt.  I think that’s more of an issue for most people in all honesty.

 

 

[ebitdaiquiri]

Time is the biggest problem. Life is too busy to find 4 or 5 hours to play 18 holes. 9 holes is usually hard to find too when juggling work, wife, young kids etc. 

 

Instead of offering 18 holes or 9 holes (1-9 or 10-18), I would like to see courses broken into rounds of 6 holes (1-6, 7-12, and 13-18). 6 holes is fast and if you have more time you could double down and play 12 holes.

 

It should also help keep a good pace of play if the course is managed in thirds instead of halves.

[seis]

We’ve got a local short yardage park district course that did a course redo several years ago. On the front nine they routed it so that the third, sixth and ninth hole ended at the clubhouse. So golfers had the option of paying for and playing 3, 6, or 9 holes. Don’t know how popular those options have been since it started that choice though.

[Juiceboxguy42]

That’s really interesting. There are some days I think I’d walk just a few holes if I had the option. Very cool.

[Jc0]

On 3/19/2022 at 5:58 AM, ebitdaiquiri said:

Time is the biggest problem. Life is too busy to find 4 or 5 hours to play 18 holes. 9 holes is usually hard to find too when juggling work, wife, young kids etc. 

 

Instead of offering 18 holes or 9 holes (1-9 or 10-18), I would like to see courses broken into rounds of 6 holes (1-6, 7-12, and 13-18). 6 holes is fast and if you have more time you could double down and play 12 holes.

 

It should also help keep a good pace of play if the course is managed in thirds instead of halves.

 

Personally I think 6 and 12 holes would be optimal now days. 6 holes take 90 minutes which is similar to most rec league sports, 12 takes 3 hours which falls in line with how long a typical professional sporting game takes (MLB, NBA, NFL).

 

Since 6 and 12 will probably never happen, I think there needs to be a better initiative on 9 hole rounds. Most people can find time lt break away for 2-3 hours for an activity, but for some reason golf culture seems to look down on 9 hole rounds, especially on the weekends, unless it's a nine hole course. I feel like I can play 9 and still have time for the rest of my day. 18 takes away options to do anything else that day during the day light.

 

[mj2936]

Anyone think maybe golf needs to go more virtual/digital? I know nothing beats going out to a 18 hole course and just enjoying it but the limitations listed above (time AND cost) are significant barriers that are not becoming easier to overcome. Additionally, something like a Sim may resonate more with the current generation of youngsters. I perasonally haven't seen courses close around me per say, but I have seen things like bar/golf sim establishments pop up.

Thoughts?

[aenemated]

1 hour ago, mj2936 said:

Anyone think maybe golf needs to go more virtual/digital? I know nothing beats going out to a 18 hole course and just enjoying it but the limitations listed above (time AND cost) are significant barriers that are not becoming easier to overcome. Additionally, something like a Sim may resonate more with the current generation of youngsters. I perasonally haven't seen courses close around me per say, but I have seen things like bar/golf sim establishments pop up.

Thoughts?

 

I took a couple lessons at a sim spot in Santa Monica, CA several years ago. They had a whole league going and that place was booked solid with kids pretty much all the time. I was on the email list and it was something like $100/mo for unlimited access - just had to get your "tee time" booked. 

 

There's one at Area 15 here in Vegas - never been but did see a news bit about it and it's about what you'd expect - buncha hitting bays and a full bar. 

 

Certainly is a thing that makes sense. Pretty cheap to get up and running and operate and you don't have to close when the sun goes down.

[MelloYello]

13 hours ago, mj2936 said:

Anyone think maybe golf needs to go more virtual/digital? I know nothing beats going out to a 18 hole course and just enjoying it but the limitations listed above (time AND cost) are significant barriers that are not becoming easier to overcome. Additionally, something like a Sim may resonate more with the current generation of youngsters. I perasonally haven't seen courses close around me per say, but I have seen things like bar/golf sim establishments pop up.

Thoughts?

 

I think the sticky point about simulator golf is that there's so much it doesn't replicate from actual golf:

 

- Putting

- Bunkers

- Rough

- Uneven lies

- Punch-outs

- Various weather conditions

 

So it's like comparing being in the real outdoors with virtual fishing, virtual cycling, etc. It's possible but it doesn't capture precisely what people are looking to experience.

 

And with every shot on a simulator being hit from the exact same lie, it would make more sense to do something like a long-drive contest or a full-swing game scored with some point system. 

 

Unfortunately, no such game exists that's been "universalized." If I go to a bowling alley for instance, I'm in a similarly artificial environment. However, with bowling I know exactly what the objective is and that's going to hold true no matter what bowling alley I visit across the world.

 

Conversely, there's no specific game established for simulators. So of course simulators fall back on being a simulation of real golf. And as I described above, they fail pretty terribly at that. 

 

 

Then there's the other elephant in the room--golf isn't really "too expensive" for those that play. It might be reserved for certain income brackets, but those brackets can afford it and they often build lifestyles around it (e.g. country clubs).

 

So the question remains, just who exactly are simulators for? 

 

Right now, simulators are just a way to hit balls indoors. They serve no real purpose to the consumer that a driving range couldn't. So as we stand, simulators haven't really found a niche worth very much. They're mostly the following:

 

- A work-around for golf enthusiasts on rainy days

- A tool for teaching studios

- A tool for social media content creators

- An cheap(er) alternative for golf enthusiasts stuck in expensive cities

- A temporary alternative for golfers is snowy / cold climates

 

None of those things create enough energy to power a revolution though unless people in cities really start to embrace the game a bit more. Of course, something can be said about why young people in cities are naturally going to prioritize getting their careers and families started as opposed to finding an outlet for golf which is more the pastime of middle-age and senior men. 

 

So even if simulators were an answer, who's asking for them and with how much enthusiasm? 

 

What's more Covid could actually hurt simulators. If college-educated, white-collar, high-earning, middle and upper-class Americans (i.e. golfers) are now mostly working from home, what's stopping them from simply relocating to golf-friendly climates and building lifestyles where they actually get to play rather than be stuck in the BS of a big city?  

 

.

Edited March 23, 2022 by MelloYello

[jholz]

If one sticks to the the municipal golf course or private club model, I don't think golf is hurting at all. Core golfers are going to show up. 

 

The simulator, 6-hole, gimmick crap is all about people who don't play golf normally, and wouldn't actually play golf if they could. Ultimately, those folks don't want to play golf. They want to do something resembling golf that is easier, more accessible, and offers easy access to food and drinks. 

 

Simply put, the folks who are going to be attracted to sim golf are people who don't actually like golf. They like the idea of golf. 

 

Real golf is hard. It takes time and commitment. You have to accept the fact that you kind of suck at it. If done properly, golf equates to 4+ hours of walking while carrying a heavy bag. Most people don't want to do that. Many people will try it and find out it isn't for them. 

 

This whole "growing the game" thing is absolute nonsense. Most people don't want to really play golf. Why do we try to keep forcing them to do so? 

[Feelingofgreatness]

I think the future of golf will be mostly sim based. As sims get better and better, and they are able to connect around the world, the majority of golf will be played virtually. This is probably good for the game because it furthers access, gets more people playing and makes "real" outdoor golf more desirable and special. Basically, the south Korean model. 

[mikedellgolf]

2 minutes ago, Feelingofgreatness said:

I think the future of golf will be mostly sim based. As sims get better and better, and they are able to connect around the world, the majority of golf will be played virtually. This is probably good for the game because it furthers access, gets more people playing and makes "real" outdoor golf more desirable and special. Basically, the south Korean model. 

 

My kids and I go to PGA superstore to practice golf indoor when the weather is cold and we absolutely hate it 😂.  Nothing beat being on the grass driving range and the actual golf course.

[MelloYello]

4 minutes ago, Feelingofgreatness said:

I think the future of golf will be mostly sim based. As sims get better and better, and they are able to connect around the world, the majority of golf will be played virtually. This is probably good for the game because it furthers access, gets more people playing and makes "real" outdoor golf more desirable and special. Basically, the south Korean model. 

 

The natural question from the American perspective is what exactly do South Koreans find so appealing about golf? 

 

Here in the US, people that want to play golf find plenty of courses and ranges at which to do so and those that don't play generally wouldn't do it if you paid them to. It's vary binary in that way. 

 

Why do the South Koreans seem so particularly attracted to the sport I wonder? 

Edited March 23, 2022 by MelloYello

[Feelingofgreatness]

3 minutes ago, mikedellgolf said:

 

My kids and I go to PGA superstore to practice golf indoor when the weather is cold and we absolutely hate it 😂.  Nothing beat being on the grass driving range and the actual golf course.

I can't speak to your experience but my buddies and I really enjoy it. We play 1 to 2 times a week in the winter. Being able to hang around, drink beers, get numbers when you smack a drive... The camaraderie, the jokes and being able to take out your stress on the golf ball are all healthy and fun. The experience is also getting much better, the graphics, the sound, the different turfs and lies. It will never be what real golf is but it's a lot of fun. I've read that the majority of golfers in Korean don't ever play outside. I'm sure it's mainly a cost and availability thing but in North America and Europe, many of us can't play outside 5 to 6 months a year due to weather. Another benefit is you can play 18 holes in 45 minutes per man so the time commitment is less, especially with 2 to 3 people. 

[Feelingofgreatness]

15 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

The natural question from the American perspective is what exactly do South Koreans find so appealing about golf? 

 

Here in the US, people that want to play golf find plenty of courses and ranges at which to do so and those that don't play generally wouldn't do it if you paid them to. It's vary binary in that way. 

 

Why do the South Koreans seem so particularly attracted to the sport I wonder? 

That's hard to say. 

 

I love playing outside... My course is a 550 arce natural preserve with lots of trees and no houses so the walk is amazing and there are many health benefits. But, I also love the act of just smacking a ball and trying to make the ball go where i intend it to go. 

 

I'm not sure why Koreans love golf so much but even in the USA places like Top Golf seem popular with casual and non golfers. I think there is something addicting about hitting a ball pure. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Feelingofgreatness

[klebs01]

4 minutes ago, Feelingofgreatness said:

I can't speak to your experience but my buddies and I really enjoy it. We play 1 to 2 times a week in the winter. Being able to hang around, drink beers, get numbers when you smack a drive... The camaraderie, the jokes and being able to take out your stress on the golf ball are all healthy and fun. The experience is also getting much better, the graphics, the sound, the different turfs and lies. It will never be what real golf is but it's a lot of fun. I've read that the majority of golfers in Korean don't ever play outside. I'm sure it's mainly a cost and availability thing but in North America and Europe, many of us can't play outside 5 to 6 months a year due to weather. Another benefit is you can play 18 holes in 45 minutes per man so the time commitment is less, especially with 2 to 3 people. 

I’ll go to a sim in the winter occasionally to meet up with people and have a beer. It’s ok at best for some hit and giggle time and really just an excuse to get out of the house when it’s snowing. It’s in no way a replacement for the real thing. 

[Feelingofgreatness]

1 minute ago, klebs01 said:

I’ll go to a sim in the winter occasionally to meet up with people and have a beer. It’s ok at best for some hit and giggle time and really just an excuse to get out of the house when it’s snowing. It’s in no way a replacement for the real thing. 

I agree. It's not a replacement, it is something different but related. I think the experience is getting better and better. It's less of a time commitment, cost commitment and the younger generation love virtual things. I imagine the tech is only going to get more immersive in time. 

[david.c.w]

Digital/Simulators//Trackman/TopGolf are enhancements to golf, not replacements.  Even if the digital/sim experiences exceed real golf in numbers, it is still not the future of golf, it is the future of entertainment.

 

 

 

[mikedellgolf]

33 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

I’ll go to a sim in the winter occasionally to meet up with people and have a beer. It’s ok at best for some hit and giggle time and really just an excuse to get out of the house when it’s snowing. It’s in no way a replacement for the real thing. 

 

I purchased $150/year practice bays for my kids and I so we get 90 minutes to use the practice bays at PGA SS.  We used it a few times and hated it, especially my kids but he didn't have choice because the nearby university is in in-person so he can't go to Florida during the winter.  The same goes with my 17 years old HS son.  I, on the other hand, can travel to FL because I am 100% working remote but it is no fun if I go by myself to stay in FL during the winter season.  To me, it is much more, I like the smell of real grass on the driving range and the golf course.  I love every minute of it.  Not so much at the PGA SS practice bays.

 

I can have a beer with my golfing buddies at the bar, LOL... PGA SS wouldn't let me take beer into the practice bays. 

[vtpachyderm]

Here where I live (Trondheim, Norway), golf is very affordable from a monetary sense. Given the outdoor season is fairly short, I pay the equivalent of $700 for a year unlimited play, and I can access a full indoor simulator center for about $400 if I choose to.

 

But where it gets difficult is from a time perspective especially if I want to play 18. Door-to-door on the weekend, I'm looking at 5-6 hours (drive, warmup, 18, and back) depending on how the course is playing. Most of the delay's on the course are looking for balls in the rough as it's pretty brutal (1 m off-line, and you just hit a provisional no questions asked).

 

But my golf course has a nice short 9 hole setup which has cut down the rough so you can actually find your ball, and even when packed, a 9 takes 90mins. Alone, I can walk it in just under an hour and I spend the bulk of my season there during the weeks in the evenings. Last year I played 12 18 hole rounds that went towards my handicap, but the rest were all 9's or I just walked off after about 90 mins regardless and this works fine for me. I use the range only for driver practice during the outdoor season, preferring instead to go walk the 9 and practice that way.

 

So for me - if golf is more time friendly it becomes more accessible to those of us that have other commitments as well - i.e. golf can't be the one and only thing you do.

[Mcnulty]

About to join my local muni for $900 for the year.  I don't walk a lot so a pass for 10 carts is $140.00 

 

The private-ish club I was at before after the restaurant minimum is going to be $3,300 for the year and no cart plan included in that.  You can see paying that if the course is in great shape, but it isn't.  

 

It's outrageously overpriced. 

[DArnie]

OK my prediction for what it is worth. (some would say NOTHING!)🙃

 

Inflation and shortages could very well throw our economy for a loop . Since golf is mostly a discretionary income business, it will probably be affected fairly significantly.  Food, gas, housing, electricity etc. are and will be climbing to new heights and golf will probably simply be a lower priority for many. Maybe not all, but I would think it will become more of a luxury 

item to quite a few people.

 

When most people's nest eggs decrease from the downward financial markets and with less purchasing power from inflation on all things, golf will most likely take a back seat for many. I would even say that the golf business is a fairly good indicator of the overall economic cycle. And I think this boom cycle we have now is about to come to an end. Like I said, this is what my crystal ball is predicting, hopefully it is wrong. 

[Golfer4Life]

I'm going to be that guy. As long as I can play, I really don't care what happens to it. 

 

I can't control the golf industry, but I can definitely control what I do.

 

I play 4 days a week sometimes 5. I have a weekday membership at my club because I'll never play on weekends and 5 hour rounds.

 

I say my state of golf is solid. 🙂

[Bonneville85308]

On 3/23/2022 at 8:47 AM, klebs01 said:

I’ll go to a sim in the winter occasionally to meet up with people and have a beer. It’s ok at best for some hit and giggle time and really just an excuse to get out of the house when it’s snowing. It’s in no way a replacement for the real thing. 

 

This is how I looked at it when I lived in the northeast. During winter, when there was snow on the ground for a month or two and we couldn't play outside, my usual playing partners and I would meet up at the club late Saturday mornings to use the simulator and have lunch after. Really was just an excuse to get out of the house and be social/have something to do, we weren't trying to actually work on our swings or take it seriously. If the course was open and the temperature was above freezing with calm wind, we'd play outside instead.  The club leased a few simulator setups and put them in a large unused storage room from November through March. They didn't get much use from the membership, though the pro did use them for giving lessons.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Bonneville85308

[Fairway14]

On 2/6/2022 at 1:22 PM, akronswitness said:

Can it be saved and reverse the trend and gain more popularity?

 

 

1) more driving ranges are needed.

2) more par 3 courses are needed.

3) the golf industry organizations (USGA, PGA, major equipment manufacturers) need to promote instruction. Let players know the game is most fun

    when participants can consistently strike decent shots and shoot lower scores. This comes from instruction and practice.