LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[bekgolf]

I'm wondering how the PGA Tour could make more money besides charging more. The only thing that really comes up is merchandising.  A Tiger hockey shirt with the cat and "TIGER" on the back, hats, things like that.  There is already PGA approved apparel but nothing like the major sports have.

 

The sports group of investors has to have something in mind besides throwing money at it.

[stinger_gc]

3 hours ago, scotee said:

Is the deal off?

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/i-can-t-see-them-coming-back-together-agent-chubby-chandler-predicts-liv-and-pga-tour-to-remain-separate/ar-BB1iIJzh?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=6171ce0235ac4395981f8ced603e19bc&ei=29

 

No. The article just says that most likely outcome is the 2 entities will remain separate but won’t overlap on the calendar. 

[Cactus Jack]

4 hours ago, ahenderX said:

Where did this information originate? My google search for Ben Marlow OWGR turned up nothing. All I see is some twitter guy named duffer who is a LIV Golf stooge.

 

The trove of last year's leaked PGAT legal documents.  

[bcjim]

2 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

No. The article just says that most likely outcome is the 2 entities will remain separate but won’t overlap on the calendar. 

Geezing golf manager makes wild guess. 

I'm sure liv will be thrilled to play in the off/football season. Lol.

[Titleist99]

5 hours ago, bekgolf said:

I'm wondering how the PGA Tour could make more money besides charging more. The only thing that really comes up is merchandising.  A Tiger hockey shirt with the cat and "TIGER" on the back, hats, things like that.  There is already PGA approved apparel but nothing like the major sports have.

 

The sports group of investors has to have something in mind besides throwing money at it.

Right off the top of my head, I would say that the investors would procure property and investment tax credits. New startups i.e. TGL, etc... Investors rarely use their own money; their money is used to secure loans......

Investors usually buy property at low prices and then sell at market prices. Like TPC golf courses.

 

Who knows they may want to purchase that boat anchor (The Golf Channel) from NBC. They'd need enough content. I don't know if that's even possible.

 

Edited February 23 by Titleist99

[freeze16172002]

11 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

No. The article just says that most likely outcome is the 2 entities will remain separate but won’t overlap on the calendar. 

If PIF doesnt partner with the PGAT the whole LIV thing collaspes. This was never about building a league that created no interest and lost billions. This was a hostile takeover. The PGA is not publicly traded, so the next best thing is taking assets with unlimited funds to force a merger and eventually a takeover. Do you think LIV is going to go forever with this strategy when the target is no longer available. They might for awhile but the future is bleak for LIV

 

[dcmidnight]

30 minutes ago, freeze16172002 said:

If PIF doesnt partner with the PGAT the whole LIV thing collaspes. This was never about building a league that created no interest and lost billions. This was a hostile takeover. The PGA is not publicly traded, so the next best thing is taking assets with unlimited funds to force a merger and eventually a takeover. Do you think LIV is going to go forever with this strategy when the target is no longer available. They might for awhile but the future is bleak for LIV

 

 

I've said before, we'll see what direction they are going in the future when this first round of contracts comes up for renewal. Are they going to keep handing out $40M deals to mid pack, over the hill guys just because they are big names? Are they going to hand out one $500M+ deal every offseason just to get their names in the headlines again? They certainly *can* - money is not an issue. But how much longer are they going to keep playing this out if the end result is just more of the same. Every off season they sign a couple B-list guys and let it be that? They keep playing a schedule at the same very average list of courses - on average. I dont know, again, they've proven they have the money the question is at what point is enough enough.

 

 

Edited February 23 by dcmidnight

[bscinstnct]

27 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

I've said before, we'll see what direction they are going in the future when this first round of contracts comes up for renewal. Are they going to keep handing out $40M deals to mid pack, over the hill guys just because they are big names? Are they going to hand out one $500M+ deal every offseason just to get their names in the headlines again? They certainly *can* - money is not an issue. But how much longer are they going to keep playing this out if the end result is just more of the same. Every off season they sign a couple B-list guys and let it be that? They keep playing a schedule at the same very average list of courses - on average. I dont know, again, they've proven they have the money the question is at what point is enough enough.

 

 

 

SSG/The Tour may have some 💰 and other deals they will offer BK to come back 

 

Of course PIF can easily surpass anything they offer

 

But I think LIV is definitely going to see there is no loyalty in either direction 

 

Why shouldn’t BK ask for 500MM to re-sign?

 

Rahmbo got it ; )

[drn92]

56 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

I've said before, we'll see what direction they are going in the future when this first round of contracts comes up for renewal. Are they going to keep handing out $40M deals to mid pack, over the hill guys just because they are big names? Are they going to hand out one $500M+ deal every offseason just to get their names in the headlines again? They certainly *can* - money is not an issue. But how much longer are they going to keep playing this out if the end result is just more of the same. Every off season they sign a couple B-list guys and let it be that? They keep playing a schedule at the same very average list of courses - on average. I dont know, again, they've proven they have the money the question is at what point is enough enough.

 

 

I wonder if those signing bonuses will continue.  They were up front payments to get those guys to play (likely to offset the loss in endorsement $$$), then the increased prize money (plus fewer tournaments) likely balanced out to where they could make about the same from playing golf as they could on the PGAT. 

 

I only see the signing bonuses going down, especially if the team concept takes off and there are other revenue streams besides just prize money.

 

It will be very interesting if the PGAT does the same thing in reverse to attract some of those guys back.  BK and Rahmbo could make out like bandits!

 

drn92

[Shilgy]

On 2/20/2024 at 11:24 AM, pingbling23 said:

to you and others maybe.  hes still one of the greatest ryder cup members of all time and has many fans around the world.  people really need to think outside of their bubble.

So was this guy. He defeated Jack twice in one day.  Sergio’s appeal is past tense.

[Shilgy]

41 minutes ago, drn92 said:

I wonder if those signing bonuses will continue.  They were up front payments to get those guys to play (likely to offset the loss in endorsement $$$), then the increased prize money (plus fewer tournaments) likely balanced out to where they could make about the same from playing golf as they could on the PGAT. 

 

I only see the signing bonuses going down, especially if the team concept takes off and there are other revenue streams besides just prize money.

 

It will be very interesting if the PGAT does the same thing in reverse to attract some of those guys back.  BK and Rahmbo could make out like bandits!

 

drn92

Pretty sure the “if the team concept takes off” ship has sailed. This is year three and there has been very little interest in corporate investment.

[bekgolf]

57 minutes ago, drn92 said:

I wonder if those signing bonuses will continue.  They were up front payments to get those guys to play (likely to offset the loss in endorsement $$$), then the increased prize money (plus fewer tournaments) likely balanced out to where they could make about the same from playing golf as they could on the PGAT. 

 

I only see the signing bonuses going down, especially if the team concept takes off and there are other revenue streams besides just prize money.

 

It will be very interesting if the PGAT does the same thing in reverse to attract some of those guys back.  BK and Rahmbo could make out like bandits!

 

drn92

 

BK and JR can fade off in to obscurity.  They showed their former fans what they are made of, most don't want to see them again.  They won't be fan favorites on the PGA Tour again, it's pretty hard to come back without a huge act of contrition like donating Liv monies to charity and saying some nice words.

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, dcmidnight said:

 

I've said before, we'll see what direction they are going in the future when this first round of contracts comes up for renewal. Are they going to keep handing out $40M deals to mid pack, over the hill guys just because they are big names? Are they going to hand out one $500M+ deal every offseason just to get their names in the headlines again? They certainly *can* - money is not an issue. But how much longer are they going to keep playing this out if the end result is just more of the same. Every off season they sign a couple B-list guys and let it be that? They keep playing a schedule at the same very average list of courses - on average. I dont know, again, they've proven they have the money the question is at what point is enough enough.

 

 

The only other option is to make Rory an offer, bundled with the next Masters Champion.

 

Lately, Rory's been flip-flopping on his position regarding the leisure tour.

 

Will that finally crush the PGAT, I doubt it.

[freeze16172002]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

SSG/The Tour may have some 💰 and other deals they will offer BK to come back 

 

Of course PIF can easily surpass anything they offer

 

But I think LIV is definitely going to see there is no loyalty in either direction 

 

Why shouldn’t BK ask for 500MM to re-sign?

 

Rahmbo got it ; )

Why? Because he adds zero value. What value did Rahm or Brooks add to LIV? Nothing with ticket sales or viewership. If the PGAT deal doesnt good through. Brooks and everyone them can kick rocks

[dcmidnight]

44 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

The only other option is to make Rory an offer, bundled with the next Masters Champion.

 

Lately, Rory's been flip-flopping on his position regarding the leisure tour.

 

Will that finally crush the PGAT, I doubt it.

 

Theres a big difference between softening your very hardline stance and taking a billion dollar offer.

 

IMO Rory loves his image too much to ever do that. 

[bscinstnct]

6 minutes ago, freeze16172002 said:

Why? Because he adds zero value. What value did Rahm or Brooks add to LIV? Nothing with ticket sales or viewership. If the PGAT deal doesnt good through. Brooks and everyone them can kick rocks

 

Oddly enough 

 

Signing big names hurts the tour

 

But seems to add no value to LIV as far as commercial success thus far 🤔

 

But there is no question getting BK and even BD back would add value to the of a tour 

Edited February 23 by bscinstnct

[stinger_gc]

3 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

If PIF doesnt partner with the PGAT the whole LIV thing collaspes. This was never about building a league that created no interest and lost billions. This was a hostile takeover. The PGA is not publicly traded, so the next best thing is taking assets with unlimited funds to force a merger and eventually a takeover. Do you think LIV is going to go forever with this strategy when the target is no longer available. They might for awhile but the future is bleak for LIV

 

That all hinges on the PIF. Yasir could keep throwing money at a failed product or he could pull the plug tomorrow. The funding for LIV is the drop in the ocean for pif

[Titleist99]

11 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

Theres a big difference between softening your very hardline stance and taking a billion dollar offer.

 

IMO Rory loves his image too much to ever do that. 

I said the same thing about Rahm. Greed is a powerful thing.

[dcmidnight]

5 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I said the same thing about Rahm. Greed is a powerful thing.

 

True - but my personal opinion of the two is that Rory cares *a lot* about what people and his fans think about him, way more than Rahm.

 

But I've been wrong about 95 other LIV related things in the last couple years LOL

[CDM]

2 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

If PIF doesnt partner with the PGAT the whole LIV thing collaspes. This was never about building a league that created no interest and lost billions. This was a hostile takeover. The PGA is not publicly traded, so the next best thing is taking assets with unlimited funds to force a merger and eventually a takeover. Do you think LIV is going to go forever with this strategy when the target is no longer available. They might for awhile but the future is bleak for LIV

 

 

If we all had a dollar for every time someone said "LIV will collaspe"  🤣   Everyone said LIV will not last a month, a year, etc and her we are. 

 

If LIV folds it will because SA gets bored.  The monies spent has zero impact on them...sad to say given the amount. 

 

Compared to other investments SA has done though, LIV is a pittance.  Not talking sports, global investments not sports related.  

 

Sure a billion is a lot of money but in the realm of what they are playing with it is like $100 to you and I.  It is just a number on a spreadsheet that reflects trillons. 

 

"target is no longer available"  I dont think that is the case long term. 

 

Not knowing much about the SSG group, it is rather "interesting" on how the collective made thier money and who they do business with.

 

The one thing for sure the SSG collective are pretty smart at business and make no mistake they are business people first and foremost. They are not going to just throw away 1.5bn. 

 

SSG partners saw an opporutnity, advantage, could almost say a weakness in the PGAT and jumped on it. SSG were the ones pushing to get the deal done quicker. 

 

The part I can not pencil is golf has a growth cap as we know. It was declining, viewership was declining, etc.  So as @bcjim notes I am wondering where / how the return comes from?  What is this "for profit" and how the structure works?  

 

SSG like any investor though has a cap on what they will provide based on returns.  If the return is not there no more money is going in.  Sad to say but I can see a future they will probably end up owning the PGAT assets in some form.  What pro golf in the US looks like after that who knows.

 

The only other thing we can see or we know is PIF (SA) can sadly wait out anyone....if they dont get bored.

[bscinstnct]

20 minutes ago, CDM said:

 

If we all had a dollar for every time someone said "LIV will collaspe"  🤣   Everyone said LIV will not last a month, a year, etc and her we are. 

 

If LIV folds it will because SA gets bored.  The monies spent has zero impact on them...sad to say given the amount. 

 

Compared to other investments SA has done though, LIV is a pittance.  Not talking sports, global investments not sports related.  

 

Sure a billion is a lot of money but in the realm of what they are playing with it is like $100 to you and I.  It is just a number on a spreadsheet that reflects trillons. 

 

"target is no longer available"  I dont think that is the case long term. 

 

Not knowing much about the SSG group, it is rather "interesting" on how the collective made thier money and who they do business with.

 

The one thing for sure the SSG collective are pretty smart at business and make no mistake they are business people first and foremost. They are not going to just throw away 1.5bn. 

 

SSG partners saw an opporutnity, advantage, could almost say a weakness in the PGAT and jumped on it. SSG were the ones pushing to get the deal done quicker. 

 

The part I can not pencil is golf has a growth cap as we know. It was declining, viewership was declining, etc.  So as @bcjim notes I am wondering where / how the return comes from?  What is this "for profit" and how the structure works?  

 

SSG like any investor though has a cap on what they will provide based on returns.  If the return is not there no more money is going in.  Sad to say but I can see a future they will probably end up owning the PGAT assets in some form.  What pro golf in the US looks like after that who knows.

 

The only other thing we can see or we know is PIF (SA) can sadly wait out anyone....if they dont get bored.

 

PIF watches every dime of what they spend. 
 

Otherwise they would have spent what was required to just move the top 12 golfers at the beginning 

 

McKinsey advised them that’s what would be required for success and 

 

McKinsey was right ; )

 

If money was really no object they could have simply spent 20 billion right off the bat and moved 80% of the top 20

 

But obviously they had no interest in spending that 

 

Now they are just bleeding a billion-2 billion a year and their expenses may ramp as BK DJ and BD need to be re-signed and they still need to pay 200MM or more…a lot more…for each star they sign

 

And SSG is fully aware of PIFs resources.

 

Its not like none of these guys says partaken in investing in Trillion dollar markets

 

Aramco has a published market of 2 trillion 

 

NVIDIA is just about to hit that just on its own. Steve Cohen (part of SSG knows all about it ; )

 

Steve Cohen's Point72 fund has likely scored a $100 million gain on Nvidia stock in 2 months as the AI craze persists

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-cohen-point72-nvidia-stock-portfolio-ai-tech-hedge-funds-2023-5?amp

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23 by bscinstnct

[stinger_gc]

51 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

Theres a big difference between softening your very hardline stance and taking a billion dollar offer.

 

IMO Rory loves his image too much to ever do that. 

Imagine if Rory announces he’s joining Stinger GC in butler cabin 😂

[wedgegame]

19 hours ago, ahenderX said:

Where did this information originate? My google search for Ben Marlow OWGR turned up nothing. All I see is some twitter guy named duffer who is a LIV Golf stooge.

Right?  My first reaction was "who is Ben Marlow, and why should we care what he thinks", then the only link to his findings is an image without a source.  Doing any more digging leads to the abyss that is LIV golf Twitter, with the same "golf media" talking points that have been played out ad nauseam.

 

The reality is the highest level of competition is found on the PGAT and DPWT. Players from the other tours have the opportunity to earn their way onto the elite tours just like anyone else. The fact of the matter is, they just aren't good enough and aren't competing against the same level of competition, hence they don't receive the same amount of points.  And if they were good enough, they would be already be playing on the more top tours and earning ranking points that those leagues would afford them.  

 

What I find particularly unbecoming is LIV and their supporters are using these other tours and their players as pawns for their own selfish agenda under the guise of growing the game globally.   They could care less whether or not players on the Asian Tour have a better path the majors, they just want to exploit that tours existing OWGR eligibility to buy legitimacy for their own uncompetitive league.

[ahenderX]

Saudi Arabia is running out of cash according to the Wall Street Journal. The first link (Business Insider) references the WSJ article (which is behind a paywall). Back in Sept., PIF cash reserves were $15B. PIF/Saudi Arabia are now selling bonds, Aramco stock, etc. to get more cash.

 

Business Insider - Saudi Arabia's futuristic megaprojects are so expensive that even its oil riches may not be enough

 

For some reason the above link is now behind a paywall. Googling Saudi Arabia cash will provide other sources.

 

WSJ - Megaprojects in the Desert Sap Saudi Arabia’s Cash

Edited February 23 by ahenderX

[Titleist99]

19 hours ago, bekgolf said:

I'm wondering how the PGA Tour could make more money besides charging more. The only thing that really comes up is merchandising.  A Tiger hockey shirt with the cat and "TIGER" on the back, hats, things like that.  There is already PGA approved apparel but nothing like the major sports have.

 

The sports group of investors has to have something in mind besides throwing money at it.

Just a little insight into what a real Golf investor can do:

Good read......

 

Golf-Loving Investor Behind Tiger Woods Deal Seeks More M&A (msn.com)

 

 

[Pops99]

Would be shocking if Rory went to LIV. Would be one of the biggest heel turns in history. We are living, apparently, in the darkest timeline, though, so it'll probably happen.

 

If he does sign with the exhibition tour, my opinion goes from defending and stating how good he is to "he's a bum. Haven't won a major in a decade. Overrated. Washed up."  lol

 

Just another day of drama in As the LIV Turns. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

17 hours ago, bcjim said:

Geezing golf manager makes wild guess. 

I'm sure liv will be thrilled to play in the off/football season. Lol.

 

Hey, you want to build a global golf tour? The CFB/NFL season is probably a good time to play since Americans won't notice anyway 😉

 

[CDM]

5 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Aramco has a published market of 2 trillion 

 

Not sure where 2 trillon came from?   Try like 4 times that. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=aramco+market+cap&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS988US988&oq=aramaco+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDwgCEAAYChiDARixAxiABDIGCAAQRRg5Mg8IARAAGAoYgwEYsQMYgAQyDwgCEAAYChiDARixAxiABDIPCAMQABgKGIMBGLEDGIAEMg8IBBAAGAoYgwEYsQMYgAQyDwgFEC4YChivARjHARiABDIPCAYQLhgKGK8BGMcBGIAEMg8IBxAAGAoYgwEYsQMYgAQyCQgIEAAYChiABDIPCAkQLhgKGK8BGMcBGIAE0gEINTU2NmowajeoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Edit: link was not working

Edited February 23 by CDM

[stinger_gc]

This has to be up their with Tiger’s cut streak!

[CDM]

3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Just a little insight into what a real Golf investor can do:

Good read......

 

Golf-Loving Investor Behind Tiger Woods Deal Seeks More M&A (msn.com)

 

 

 

Great read. 

 

When TM was bought I wondered who MGCCC was.  Intresting how they are spinning it though.  6-8 months ago MGCCC was going down.

 

When TM sold I wondered who they are. Honestly thought it was just the governement. 

 

I found it interesting is how they use the money of people in the cooperartives to buy assets with a projected rate of return. I guess more so it sounded like a pension fund but I dont specfically know.  Could an investment index fund type. 

 

Regardless last summer the South Korea government asked banks to be prepared for $4 Billion as the investments were not performing, loosing a ton of money and there was a "run" per se with people taking as much money out as MGCCC as they could unitl it was stopped so they did not collapse.   

 

Similar to the US, I think MGCCC is one of those cases of "to big to fail".  I think in the end between the government / banks stepping in it saved them. It went "silent" which would be expected in those countries. 

 

I hope it works as Jinhyoek Jeong is interesting person to say the least.   Crazy how little people they have for a group that manages that much money, made me think of Buffet/Berkshire.