LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[vman]

Is it true that Greg is in talks with Lee Trevino?

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, pingbling23 said:

No and I wasn’t expecting them to win when they were playing on the pga tour right before they signed with LIV.  Can’t criticize one tour and not the other.  Both have filler.

Does LIV make stats available?  How many on that tour averaged under 70.0 strokes per round last year?  There were 72 on the PGA Tour.

 

Let’s face facts.  They went with name recognition above all else.

[stinger_gc]

2 hours ago, vman said:

Is it true that Greg is in talks with Lee Trevino?

We’ll sign him as a reserve. Have him play from 6200 and watch him tear up Jeddah next year

[pingbling23]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Does LIV make stats available?  How many on that tour averaged under 70.0 strokes per round last year?  There were 72 on the PGA Tour.

 

Let’s face facts.  They went with name recognition above all else.

I don’t know, you can search as easy a I can.  While true, they had to get the bigger names and most popular players on the pga tour for credibility but they have done a great job of getting many top 100 guys.  Of course your side craps on those players since they aren’t big names.  Liv can be criticized for many things but the strength of the league isn’t one of them.

[ahenderX]

LIV Golf withdraws OWGR application.

 

LIV Golf Gives Up Quest for Official World Golf Ranking Accreditation

 

"The LIV Golf League on Tuesday formally withdrew its application for Official World Golf Ranking accreditation, saying that the OWGR cannot be an 'official' ranking system because it has failed to recognize the performances of LIV golfers in recent years."

Edited March 5 by ahenderX

[SnowbirdTom]

12 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

We’ll sign him as a reserve. Have him play from 6200 and watch him tear up Jeddah next year

Pretty sure Lee’d just give them directions to someplace hotter’n SA.

[smashdn]

15 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Let’s face facts.  They went with name recognition above all else.

 

Given their event and league structure, how would not getting popular golfers have worked out?  What would be the point in that?  LIV would have been d-level PGAT players and KFT guys.

 

That said, there were guys I would not have recruited.  And certainly not signed to multi-year contracts.

 

Maybe the promotion and relegation aspect will get more robust as it matures and/if the fluidity between tours becomes a thing.

[idrive]

22 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I'd argue there are/were plenty of times on the PGAT when it was a millionaire battling another millionaire down the final few holes for a win, and one would pocket around 1m for the win and the other 750k or so for second (or more depending upon the event).

 

 

Yes, but how did they become millionaires?

 

They earned it on the golf course, not by signing their name on a piece of paper.

[MaineMariner]

So the last couple weeks of incessant chatter from LIV players and insiders about points... was that a last ditch PR effort to try to sway public perception of OWGR?

[TroyB123]

1 hour ago, ahenderX said:

LIV Golf withdraws OWGR application.

 

LIV Golf Gives Up Quest for Official World Golf Ranking Accreditation

 

"The LIV Golf League on Tuesday formally withdrew its application for Official World Golf Ranking accreditation, saying that the OWGR cannot be an 'official' ranking system because it has failed to recognize the performances of LIV golfers in recent years."

Also in the article

Quote

“Even if LIV Golf events were immediately awarded points, the OWGR system is designed such that it would be functionally impossible for you to regain positions close to the summit of the ranking, where so many of you belong.”

That always seemed obvious.   Even if they got included in the OWGR, it seemed unlikely any of them could maintain top 50 status with live events alone.   

 

I don't know how genuine liv was about wanting owgr points.   They seemed to be pretending to make an effort just to feign outrage about being denied, and also as a show to their players.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, ahenderX said:

LIV Golf withdraws OWGR application.

 

LIV Golf Gives Up Quest for Official World Golf Ranking Accreditation

 

"The LIV Golf League on Tuesday formally withdrew its application for Official World Golf Ranking accreditation, saying that the OWGR cannot be an 'official' ranking system because it has failed to recognize the performances of LIV golfers in recent years."

Funny, LIV the tour/corporation/Greg withdrew but not LIV the players.  They have got to be pissed are I would think would be less likely to sign back up when contracts expire.

 

For those that think this is awful…..

Let’s say they had signed #1 through #48 and got ranking points.  There would have been no way for anyone else to break into the top 48 because of their closed shop status.  The order would have changed but they would be top 48 until they died.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Given their event and league structure, how would not getting popular golfers have worked out?  What would be the point in that?  LIV would have been d-level PGAT players and KFT guys.

 

That said, there were guys I would not have recruited.  And certainly not signed to multi-year contracts.

 

Maybe the promotion and relegation aspect will get more robust as it matures and/if the fluidity between tours becomes a thing.

There will never be fluidity between tours as they feel it’s a one way street.  They want to play on PGA Tour but oops! No room for you as teams are full.

[betarhoalphadelta]

18 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Does LIV make stats available?  How many on that tour averaged under 70.0 strokes per round last year?  There were 72 on the PGA Tour.

 

 

Always tough to base anything on this, because we don't really have perfectly objective viewpoints on course setup.

 

Subtle things can affect scoring... I remember an interview with Phil after he had moved to the Champions Tour but came back to play a PGAT event on how different the pin placements are. On the Champions Tour, they're mostly benign, but on the PGAT, they're typically much more tucked and difficult making scoring harder. 

 

When LIV has fewer tournaments, smaller fields, and only 54 holes per tournament, statistically it seems unlikely that we would have seen rounds of 59 and 58 already. The PGAT has only seen 9 of those rounds since 2010, despite MUCH higher total number of rounds played each year. 

 

It's merely circumstantial evidence, but one might conclude that the setups are more amenable to scoring. Especially when you look at how much LIV promoted those rounds trying to get excitement for their league. 

[Shilgy]

12 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Always tough to base anything on this, because we don't really have perfectly objective viewpoints on course setup.

 

Subtle things can affect scoring... I remember an interview with Phil after he had moved to the Champions Tour but came back to play a PGAT event on how different the pin placements are. On the Champions Tour, they're mostly benign, but on the PGAT, they're typically much more tucked and difficult making scoring harder. 

 

When LIV has fewer tournaments, smaller fields, and only 54 holes per tournament, statistically it seems unlikely that we would have seen rounds of 59 and 58 already. The PGAT has only seen 9 of those rounds since 2010, despite MUCH higher total number of rounds played each year. 

 

It's merely circumstantial evidence, but one might conclude that the setups are more amenable to scoring. Especially when you look at how much LIV promoted those rounds trying to get excitement for their league. 

I agree with all of that.  But what little I’ve seen of their scoring it seems some players are not so “elite” these days. 

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, idrive said:

 

Yes, but how did they become millionaires?

 

They earned it on the golf course, not by signing their name on a piece of paper.

 

Are you excluding sponsorships?  Are you saying Dustin Johnson didn't earn his money and popularity on the golf course?  They are all making money off of what they do/did on the golf course.  

 

In the same way that their performance opens doors for sponsorships and endorsement deals, it opened up the opportunity of LIV for them as well.  Some chose to take it, others did not.

[CaseyC]

Without OWGR points, it appears the PIF/PGAT deal won't happen.

[Togatown22]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:11 AM, Cactus Jack said:

The love for a good story is a universal appeal across professional sports, of which LIV has plenty. For example, Bryson’s 58, Neiman vs Sergio pitch black playoff, Anthony Kim’s return etc. What LIV is missing is 50 years of historical context, which frankly is a weak criticism of a start up league. 
 

Also, the guaranteed money is a poor argument too. 99% of major professional  have guaranteed salaries and compete at a level few humans can comprehend. Brady, Jordan, you name it are ruthless competitors because that’s how they are wired. Yes, there’s 1% who mail it in after cashing in on a big contract, but that is exceptionally rare. More than anything that’s a character/priorities thing. Blanket statements like LIV guys play for nothing is simply false. Niemann is a perfect example of what it means to play for the love of the game. 
 

 

I think the fact that many (most?) of the LIV guys (save the auto-qualifiers) knowingly gave up the chance to compete in majors to take the bag flies strongly in the face of your second paragraph.  Ruthless competitors compete for history - to be the best ever.  In golf, that's majors man, not bank accounts.

[bscinstnct]

21 minutes ago, CaseyC said:

Without OWGR points, it appears the PIF/PGAT deal won't happen.

 

 

[Cactus Jack]

7 minutes ago, CaseyC said:

Without OWGR points, it appears the PIF/PGAT deal won't happen.

 

That is looking more likely with each passing day. Ultimately, time kills deals. 

 

Folk's shouldn't be upset about the OWGR. Their criteria transparently and properly recognize the top 25 - 50  PGAT players. OWGR is a proven system that works for its intended purpose. However, players from all tours have called into question their ability to identify the best players in the sport. As such, I wouldn't be surprised if a new ranking system that accounts for the shifting professional golf ecosystem emerges sooner than later.

 

In the meantime, this just elevated the DPWT and Open championships worldwide. There are plenty of ways to enter the majors outside of OWGR points. While points are the easiest way in, several guys, LIV guys for example, have played their way into the Open Championship. This could be a huge win for global golf. I do think this hurts the Masters. Outside of their invites, the Master's just became the signature PGAT elevated event, which is a bit of a bummer.     

[Cactus Jack]

24 minutes ago, Togatown22 said:

I think the fact that many (most?) of the LIV guys (save the auto-qualifiers) knowingly gave up the chance to compete in majors to take the bag flies strongly in the face of your second paragraph.  Ruthless competitors compete for history - to be the best ever.  In golf, that's majors man, not bank accounts.

 

Sorry, I disagree. There's not a single professional athlete that's playing for free. This is first and foremost a career that supports their family, and in some instances, multiple generations. Player salaries in all sports have skyrocketed, and many have formed unions for collective bargaining purposes to maximize every last benefit. Brady might be the most selfless example of a pro-athlete taking less than market to support a dynasty, but even he grabbed the bag at the end of his career. Professional athletes play to get paid. Period. 

[Shilgy]

14 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

Sorry, I disagree. There's not a single professional athlete that's playing for free. This is first and foremost a career that supports their family, and in some instances, multiple generations. Player salaries in all sports have skyrocketed, and many have formed unions for collective bargaining purposes to maximize every last benefit. Brady might be the most selfless example of a pro-athlete taking less than market to support a dynasty, but even he grabbed the bag at the end of his career. Professional athletes play to get paid. Period. 

So in a post where you admit Brady took less than he could have to build his legacy you claim no athlete would ever take less?

 

Got it.

 

Now that LIV has told the rankings to shove it we will see just who really wants to compete and who just wants to get paid.  And those signing bonuses and contracts will need to get a whole lot bigger for some to join or stay.

 

As you said no athlete is playing for free but many will willingly take less to chase titles.

[ahenderX]

29 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

Sorry, I disagree. There's not a single professional athlete that's playing for free. This is first and foremost a career that supports their family, and in some instances, multiple generations. Player salaries in all sports have skyrocketed, and many have formed unions for collective bargaining purposes to maximize every last benefit. Brady might be the most selfless example of a pro-athlete taking less than market to support a dynasty, but even he grabbed the bag at the end of his career. Professional athletes play to get paid. Period. 

The salaries of players in the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. are justified because the teams and leagues make lots of money. LIV is simply trying to destroy the PGA Tour product by poaching players with dollar amounts which aren’t realistic compared to all other sports. It’s time for a new lawsuit against LIV/PIF. This time by the Tour players. Tiger by himself could finance it.

Edited March 5 by ahenderX

[woahnelly]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Always tough to base anything on this, because we don't really have perfectly objective viewpoints on course setup.

 

Subtle things can affect scoring... I remember an interview with Phil after he had moved to the Champions Tour but came back to play a PGAT event on how different the pin placements are. On the Champions Tour, they're mostly benign, but on the PGAT, they're typically much more tucked and difficult making scoring harder. 

 

When LIV has fewer tournaments, smaller fields, and only 54 holes per tournament, statistically it seems unlikely that we would have seen rounds of 59 and 58 already. The PGAT has only seen 9 of those rounds since 2010, despite MUCH higher total number of rounds played each year. 

 

It's merely circumstantial evidence, but one might conclude that the setups are more amenable to scoring. Especially when you look at how much LIV promoted those rounds trying to get excitement for their league. 

 

Niemann played lights out, nobody was even close to him that day. Circumstantial indeed

 

 

[Togatown22]

44 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

Sorry, I disagree. There's not a single professional athlete that's playing for free. This is first and foremost a career that supports their family, and in some instances, multiple generations. Player salaries in all sports have skyrocketed, and many have formed unions for collective bargaining purposes to maximize every last benefit. Brady might be the most selfless example of a pro-athlete taking less than market to support a dynasty, but even he grabbed the bag at the end of his career. Professional athletes play to get paid. Period. 

No one said anything about playing for free.  You used the term 'ruthless competitors' with Brady and Jordan as your examples.  Two guys who have said over and over it was about the rings, about the championships, about being the best.   Take all of the money out of it - where would competitive golfers who are ruthless competitors, competing to be the best ever want to compete?  The majors, obviously. 

The fact that these guys are taking a route that avoids a path to majors torpedoes your argument. 

[jdl]

Niemann gets a PGA Championship invite.

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2024/03/05/liv-golf-joaquin-niemann-2024-pga-championship-valhalla/?taid=65e74fae372ad400018b245f&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

[wedgegame]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

 

Wonder how Rahm is feeling right now? I feel like he took the deal with LIV fully expecting the merger to go through.  

[jdl]

3 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

Wonder how Rahm is feeling right now? I feel like he took the deal with LIV fully expecting the merger to go through.  

[RobS]

4 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

Also in the article

That always seemed obvious.   Even if they got included in the OWGR, it seemed unlikely any of them could maintain top 50 status with live events alone.   

 

I don't know how genuine liv was about wanting owgr points.   They seemed to be pretending to make an effort just to feign outrage about being denied, and also as a show to their players.

Agree.  It's apparent that LIV felt they could strongarm their way into their desired outcomes be it player access to the PGA and DP World Tours, Ryder Cup or rankings.  Their ability to effectively negotiate outside of writing big checks and litigating has been non-existent.  Threats and insults aren't the most effective ways of doing business.  Makes me wonder if the outcomes could have been different if they had hired someone with some diplomacy and likeability instead of Norman.

[betarhoalphadelta]

18 minutes ago, woahnelly said:

 

Niemann played lights out, nobody was even close to him that day. Circumstantial indeed

 

 

Exactly. And Niemann seems to be absolutely on top of his game right now. 

 

It's the problem with small numbers. LIV has 2 rounds under 60 out of 3 (short) seasons. That could be random luck and Niemann and DeChambeau were just completely "on" those days. Statistically 2 is still a small enough number to "seem large" and yet still be randomness.

 

Hence "circumstantial". 

 

My apologies. I wasn't saying that I have ironclad proof that the LIV setups are easier to promote scoring. But I was using that as one example of why comparing scoring across the two leagues might not be valid. Something as subtle as 5-6 feet different pin placements on every hole could make a pretty decent change in how aggressively players go after the course, and could lead to different scores. 

[bekgolf]

31 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

Wonder how Rahm is feeling right now? I feel like he took the deal with LIV fully expecting the merger to go through.  

 

So the PGA finally told Liv to buzz off?  The Liv players are going to expect even more money on the next contract, so is anyone who jumps over to Liv.

 

How long will PIF listen to the marketing people at Liv?  The marketing people need Liv to live to keep getting a salary.