LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[BlackDiamondPar5]

3 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

Speith, Cantlay, Thomas, Finau, Burns, Fowler, Zalaroris, Matsuyama, Hovland, Young, Fitzpatrick, etc have become the poster children for not joining the PGAT. They look miserable, several hurt, and their games are in the toilet.  
 

The logic makes sense, right? Another interpretation could be professional golf is hard. 

So are you saying that LIV is a good place for underperforming and washed up players?

 

Maybe the guys you mentioned just want to be part of something that actually matters?

 

 

[freeze16172002]

4 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

Speith, Cantlay, Thomas, Finau, Burns, Fowler, Zalaroris, Matsuyama, Hovland, Young, Fitzpatrick, etc have become the poster children for not joining the PGAT. They look miserable, several hurt, and their games are in the toilet.  
 

The logic makes sense, right? Another interpretation could be professional golf is hard. 

Upset about your game and life decisions are different makes sense? Grass is always greener, pretty easy to make sense of it

[Archimedes65]

12 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Now you are changing the subject.  I never said they like team events.  I was responding to a post that said they don't play team events.  They do, and for years.

 

But they don’t ’play team events’.  They play individual rounds of golf and then someone adds their scores up at the end and calls their score a ‘team score’.  That does not make golf a team sport.

[Archimedes65]

9 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

Speith, Cantlay, Thomas, Finau, Burns, Fowler, Zalaroris, Matsuyama, Hovland, Young, Fitzpatrick, etc have become the poster children for not joining the PGAT. They look miserable, several hurt, and their games are in the toilet.  
 

The logic makes sense, right? Another interpretation could be professional golf is hard. 

 

What?  Half the guys you mentioned are Top 30 in the FedEx Cup rankings and the OWGR.  Their games are in the toilet?  😂

 

If you want to talk about toilets, just look at Cam Smith’s cool 80 today en route to coming in third from last against a field that’s 3/4’s stiffs.

[pingbling23]

never been an easier time to get in that top 30 of the owgr.

[Cactus Jack]

3 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

What?  Half the guys you mentioned are Top 30 in the FedEx Cup rankings and the OWGR.  Their games are in the toilet?  😂

 

If you want to talk about toilets, just look at Cam Smith’s cool 80 today en route to coming in third from last against a field that’s 3/4’s stiffs.

 

Whoops forgot a few names 😉 

 

 

Rham is ranked 7th. Golf is hard. 
 

Cam Smith? He’s barely a top 100 player and based on his rankings is getting worse every week. 😉. 

Edited June 10 by Cactus Jack

[freeze16172002]

8 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

Whoops forgot a few names 😉 

 

 

Rham is ranked 7th. Golf is hard. 
 

Cam Smith? He’s barely a top 100 player and based on his rankings is getting worse every week. 😉. 

Who on  your list is top 30? Who is miserable, If you're going to make a point stay on point

[Golferpaul]

11 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But they don’t ’play team events’.  They play individual rounds of golf and then someone adds their scores up at the end and calls their score a ‘team score’.  That does not make golf a team sport.

I never said golf was a team sport.  I said they played team golf for many years before entering the PGAT.  

 

You have to be blind to ignore all of the team events these guys have played for years.

[dcmidnight]

19 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

I never said golf was a team sport.  I said they played team golf for many years before entering the PGAT.  

 

You have to be blind to ignore all of the team events these guys have played for years.

 

Comparing the "team golf" these guys have played to LIV is like comparing oranges and cinder blocks.

[italianstallion]

36 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

Comparing the "team golf" these guys have played to LIV is like comparing oranges and cinder blocks.

 

Best ball, alternate shot, individual match play. That's way more interesting team golf. Completely eliminates any sort of individualism from the proceedings. Like someone else mentioned elsewhere, they just can't seem to get the execution right on anything they do. With OWGR rankings completely off the table now, why not switch the format up completely to make it all true team golf? 

[Golferpaul]

51 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

Comparing the "team golf" these guys have played to LIV is like comparing oranges and cinder blocks.

I don't recall comparing anything to LIV.  I was just highlighting how many years these guys have played team golf.

[Shilgy]

Another week another “I’m so great “ quote by a LIV winner.  Poor Carlos Ortiz now says he “deserves” to be in the US Open field….even though he failed at qualifying.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/carlos-ortiz--wins-fhis-first-liv-golf-tournament--laments-that-?utm_medium=email&utm_source=061024&utm_campaign=newsandtours&utm_content=DM52662&uuid=8a0e6a26-43d9-4552-890f-cae660892c4e

[Archimedes65]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I never said golf was a team sport.  I said they played team golf for many years before entering the PGAT.  

 

You have to be blind to ignore all of the team events these guys have played for years.

 

And you have to blind to think that they really consider them team events.  Is a sprinter playing a team sport when they run the 100m at a meet and the points are added up at the end to determine a school winner?  I was a high jumper through Junior and part of Senior High.  I never once felt like I was playing a team sport.

[Archimedes65]

11 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

Cam Smith? He’s barely a top 100 player and based on his rankings is getting worse every week. 😉. 

 

😂  You mean the guy who won The Open Championship less than two years ago and that LIV paid over $100 million to get to jump ship to their traveling clown show, who now looks fairly lost on the golf course?  You’re gonna just gloss over that as not being a game in the toilet, but then pick at Cantly, JT, and Spieth, all of whom are still Top 25 players (ok, Spieth is 26).

 

I will concede that fewer LIV players have fallen way off, but that’s because most of their games had already fallen off before they left the PGA Tour. 

[freeze16172002]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I don't recall comparing anything to LIV.  I was just highlighting how many years these guys have played team golf.

If you're not comparing it to LIV what is your point? 

[Golferpaul]

14 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

Cam Smith? He’s barely a top 100 player and based on his rankings is getting worse every week. 😉. 

Smith doesn't play the PGAT so his rankings are silly and useless.  And yes, with no PGAT events he will get "worse" every week.

[Golferpaul]

51 minutes ago, freeze16172002 said:

If you're not comparing it to LIV what is your point? 

I'll shorten the thread trail.  Somebody posted that the PGAT players don't have team experience.  I  corrected that stat.  End of story.

[Archimedes65]

14 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

never been an easier time to get in that top 30 of the owgr.

Please.  In the OWGR that came out a few days after Mickelson announced his move to LIV in June 2022, exactly two guys currently at LIV were in the Top 15 in the world,  Rahm and Smith, and 7-8 in the next 15.  Smith and a number of those in the 15-30, like DJ, have basically fallen off the world.  The idea that LIV players would be filling up the Top 25 and pushing PGA Tour players down is a total joke.  Aside from a handful of players over there, most of the LIV’s defectors’ games were on the decline, hence why many of them took the money and ran.  You maybe have five guys over there that would be legit Top 25 guys today, which would make JT and Spieth still Top 30 players in the world right now.

[Danielson]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Another week another “I’m so great “ quote by a LIV winner.  Poor Carlos Ortiz now says he “deserves” to be in the US Open field….even though he failed at qualifying.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/carlos-ortiz--wins-fhis-first-liv-golf-tournament--laments-that-?utm_medium=email&utm_source=061024&utm_campaign=newsandtours&utm_content=DM52662&uuid=8a0e6a26-43d9-4552-890f-cae660892c4e

 

I'm sure this is a standard LIV talking point that Greg Norman wants to push... but maybe take a week off when you're talking about one of the majors that ANYONE is allowed to play in as long as they qualify. Best part about the Opens is that nobody who deserves to be there is left out and I'm not sure how anyone would argue that.

[Opie Taylor]

4 hours ago, italianstallion said:

 

Best ball, alternate shot, individual match play. That's way more interesting team golf. Completely eliminates any sort of individualism from the proceedings. Like someone else mentioned elsewhere, they just can't seem to get the execution right on anything they do. With OWGR rankings completely off the table now, why not switch the format up completely to make it all true team golf? 

Why is it that the Aramco Series which is basically LIV golf for women can operate flawlessly with Rolex World Rankings with their format of individual and team golf yet in your opinion LIV golf can not execute right on anything although it's basically the same as Aramco Series format created by the same people.

 

Had the DPWT embraced LIV Golf like the LET/LPGA embraced the Aramco Series then I don't think we would be having this conversation. 

 

When Lexi Thompson was asked why she played on the Aramco Series her response was she would play wherever that would grow women's golf. There is no arguing like or hate LIV that it has grown professional golf and that's very evident by how many first-time PGAT winners we have in the last 2 years. It's also evident by the increases in PGAT purses, would these purses increase without some external pressure? 

 

I think Rory also agrees with the growth.

 

I think also Rory has now realized that maybe there was some impulsiveness in handling the whole situation.

 

 

I have no dog in this fight but the civil war and hate in the golf world seem counterproductive.

I have no intentions of changing anybody's mind no matter what side of the fence you're on but as a non-partisan looking in from the outside all I can say is the golf world division is in a very sad state and filled with propaganda by both sides. The vitriol in this thread is unfortunate and as a newcomer has prompted me to stay out of this thread going forward.

 

Peace and Cheers. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

I'll shorten the thread trail.  Somebody posted that the PGAT players don't have team experience.  I  corrected that stat.  End of story.

 

Except that’s not what I said.  I said…”Zero surprise.  Nobody wants to play team golf, outside of a few special events, usually associated with country.  These guys all grew up playing tournament golf as individuals.  You can’t throw them into teams and magically think they’re going to get along, much less build camaraderie.  It’s NOT A TEAM sport.”

 

And what I said is accurate.  They grew up playing tournament golf as individuals, not just as Juniors, but also if they played on their school team in high school and/or college.  They were playing and scoring as individuals, with an individual tournament competition.  The fact that someone adds up the scores of the players for team totals is irrelevant to what they were doing and/or what they cared about.  And it doesn’t make it a team sport, any more than adding up the final positions of the Kenyans in the Boston marathon and crowning Kenya the winner.  I’m sure the runners wouldn’t care much.

[johnseg]

3 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I'll shorten the thread trail.  Somebody posted that the PGAT players don't have team experience.  I  corrected that stat.  End of story.

The next event that LIV plays with team golf will be the first. Aggregating scores of players is not "team" anything. if LIV really wanted team golf they should have really doubled down and come up with a true team format. I think that could be interesting. Nothing they have done has moved the needle.

[Dutch1008]

3 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

Please.  In the OWGR that came out a few days after Mickelson announced his move to LIV in June 2022, exactly two guys currently at LIV were in the Top 15 in the world,  Rahm and Smith, and 7-8 in the next 15.  Smith and a number of those in the 15-30, like DJ, have basically fallen off the world.  The idea that LIV players would be filling up the Top 25 and pushing PGA Tour players down is a total joke.  Aside from a handful of players over there, most of the LIV’s defectors’ games were on the decline, hence why many of them took the money and ran.  You maybe have five guys over there that would be legit Top 25 guys today, which would make JT and Spieth still Top 30 players in the world right now.

 

Agreed, plus there's a better way to rank golfers. Datagolf is unbiased and purely performance based. We don't need to guess or even argue, here are the LIV guys in the top 25...

 

Rahm (7)

Bryson (11)

Nieman (12)

Hatton (16)

 

That's it. Expanding to the Top 50 we add the following...

 

Burmester (34)

Oosthuizen (35)

Koepka (36)

Gooch (39)

Reed (43)

 

First man out, Ortiz (51)

 

Folks are welcome to believe that Brooks is better than 39th or that DJ (56) or Cam (57) are underrated. That's all fine and dandy but their recent play doesn't support that at all. To paraphrase Bill Parcel's, "You are what your record says you are". 

[Golferpaul]

18 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

never been an easier time to get in that top 30 of the owgr.

Yes, using both OWGR and Data Golf gives you a better picture.

 

Data Golf agrees with most of the top rankings. But they have Rahm at #6, and DeChambeau at #10.  Clearly, those two would bump two current players from the top 30.

[bcjim]

4 hours ago, Opie Taylor said:

Why is it that the Aramco Series which is basically LIV golf for women can operate flawlessly with Rolex World Rankings with their format of individual and team golf yet in your opinion LIV golf can not execute right on anything although it's basically the same as Aramco Series format created by the same people.

 

Had the DPWT embraced LIV Golf like the LET/LPGA embraced the Aramco Series then I don't think we would be having this conversation. 

 

When Lexi Thompson was asked why she played on the Aramco Series her response was she would play wherever that would grow women's golf. There is no arguing like or hate LIV that it has grown professional golf and that's very evident by how many first-time PGAT winners we have in the last 2 years. It's also evident by the increases in PGAT purses, would these purses increase without some external pressure? 

 

I think Rory also agrees with the growth.

 

I think also Rory has now realized that maybe there was some impulsiveness in handling the whole situation.

 

 

I have no dog in this fight but the civil war and hate in the golf world seem counterproductive.

I have no intentions of changing anybody's mind no matter what side of the fence you're on but as a non-partisan looking in from the outside all I can say is the golf world division is in a very sad state and filled with propaganda by both sides. The vitriol in this thread is unfortunate and as a newcomer has prompted me to stay out of this thread going forward.

 

Peace and Cheers. 

 

 

 

 

 

Women's golf is nowhere near as lucrative as men's golf. They will play wherever they get paid. Whether they like or or not. 

 

Also,  if it's so great how come I had to Google basic facts about it and I follow ladies golf more closely than 99% of the population?

[notsohard]

At the end of the day, the opinions of those on the internet are irrelevant. 

LIV will continue, and the PGAT has to do the deal.

There is plenty of noise going on at the moment which the public don't know and don't hear.

The landscape has changed. Sponsors are now looking to get their piece of the pie, as they were. 

 

[Archimedes65]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Yes, using both OWGR and Data Golf gives you a better picture.

 

Data Golf agrees with most of the top rankings. But they have Rahm at #6, and DeChambeau at #10.  Clearly, those two would bump two current players from the top 30.

 

But not Spieth or JT, who are 25/26 respectively.

[CDM]

23 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

What?  Half the guys you mentioned are Top 30 in the FedEx Cup rankings and the OWGR.  Their games are in the toilet?  😂

 

If you want to talk about toilets, just look at Cam Smith’s cool 80 today en route to coming in third from last against a field that’s 3/4’s stiffs.

 

Sorry but using the OWGR for context is prettly lame in today situation now. 

 

Considering any tour (world wide) that gets OWGR points gets peanuts compared the PGAT.  Funny how the Euro tour gets low points and yet how many are now on the PGAT and doing well.   Yet before they got cards on the PGAT everyone would say "they are just not good enough" and then come over and win events early in the season.  Now some are playing back on the Euro tour too support that  and home events. 

 

The best part of the OWGR now is how the PGAT used it to the structure control with elevated events.   Play a few elevated events and you will never drop out based on how many points they give in those now.  Near double... but if you finish in the bott0m 15% of the 70 man fields you get no points...........so 10 players.... HAHAHA...... 60 of this playes get near double points and only 10 do not.  Pretty hard to make to move up the list if your not in those events.

 

Having players and PAC members openly stating that last week as Memorial  "its the worst thing they have done" is not good.   I do agree with the players, the more you play VS...the harder it is to win.  Right now it is just looks like "hand outs" to keep the image of the PGAT so they can say they can say we have "xx number of players in the world rankings" 

[Archimedes65]

10 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Another week another “I’m so great “ quote by a LIV winner.  Poor Carlos Ortiz now says he “deserves” to be in the US Open field….even though he failed at qualifying.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/carlos-ortiz--wins-fhis-first-liv-golf-tournament--laments-that-?utm_medium=email&utm_source=061024&utm_campaign=newsandtours&utm_content=DM52662&uuid=8a0e6a26-43d9-4552-890f-cae660892c4e

 

😂  Dude was 112th in the world when he joined LIV, with exactly one win, three years prior.  What a dip. 

[CDM]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But not Spieth or JT, who are 25/26 respectively.

 

Honest question......... IF not for the elevated events would Jordan or JT  even be near those rankings.   

 

Jordan, in his last 20 events has crakced the top 10 twice I think, maybe 3 time. IF you look at the points he got in the elevated events compared to none elevated events  it is "bolstering" his OWGR  and doing it VS 70 man fields.... not full fields which would make it harder as we all know.  

 

JT at least, adid well in a few elevated events and jumped up.  His game is at least coming back.  Last year he could not hit anytihing.