LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Archimedes65]

10 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The players are the ones at the table doing the deal. They are all represented by the same agents.

 

Between SSG PIF and the players, they’ll hammer out something everyone is on board with

 

Im just speculating that PIF will want the Aramco events since they were highlighted in the first agreement. They could all be in the US who knows?

 

There are only three players no the transaction committee and they won’t agree to something that they don’t believe the broader player group will support.  PGA Tour players have consistently said they don’t want to play regularly overseas.

 

I could see a few events in the U.S. with Aramco as the sponsor, just like Wells Fargo, RBC, etc.  But making any significant changes to the design of the PGA Tour would be a major mistake.  Fans don’t want international anything beyond the Open and the Ryder/Presidents Cups and nobody wants team golf, particularly clown show team golf.

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

It’s a testament to the pga tour that there only been a 20% drop in ratings. 
 

But that 20% is very likely the margin between running in the black…or in the red with deficits. 
 

Networks will forecast these ratings drops into revenue declines, the pga tours next media contact shrinks, and networks could even demand “clawbacks” on paying for what’s been negotiated til 2030 when the contract expires 

 

Then SSG has to cover the deficit or the purses shrink

 

That’s the critical mass point that SSG can’t tolerate because all the while, PIF will keep poaching top players

 

Thats why we are here doing a deal

 

I loathe PIF/LIV put I can’t watch a watered down field either. 

Do you honestly believe that the PGAT and the Masters all had a 22% drop in viewership based on comparison to 2023 which was one of the most successful seasons in recent memory?

 

Five guys on the decline left for SA and you claim that the field is watered down.

 

We're here doing a deal because PGAT players are greedy and want some of that Saudi cash for themselves. Plain and simple. They want $3B SSGmoney and $3B Saudi money and the $9B Media money. Good time to be the PGAT.

[bscinstnct]

1 minute ago, Titleist99 said:

Do you honestly believe that the PGAT and the Masters all had a 22% drop in viewership based on comparison to 2023 which was one of the most successful seasons in recent memory?

 

Five guys on the decline left for SA and you claim that the field is watered down.

 

We're here doing a deal because PGAT players are greedy and want some of that Saudi cash for themselves. Plain and simple. They want $3B SSGmoney and $3B Saudi money and the $9B Media money. Good time to be the PGAT.

 

Rahm and Cam were in decline? They both won Majors the year they left. Let’s be honest here, both top draws and elite guys.  BK was injured then came back and won a major last year. Bryson is enormously popular. DJ? He’s definitely gone out to lunch 🤣

 

Yes, a key talent drain caused a decline in ratings and the jacked up purses are not funded imo, I think SSG is the backstop. But not forever 

 

You take the cash or the tours purses are in jeopardy of going down. Then you got problems as LIV keeps poaching. 
 

Every guy out there has a price. 

 

 

[Titleist99]

34 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Rahm and Cam were in decline? They both won Majors the year they left. Let’s be honest here, both top draws and elite guys.  BK was injured then came back and won a major last year. Bryson is enormously popular. DJ? He’s definitely gone out to lunch 🤣

 

Yes, a key talent drain caused a decline in ratings and the jacked up purses are not funded imo, I think SSG is the backstop. But not forever 

 

You take the cash or the tours purses are in jeopardy of going down. Then you got problems as LIV keeps poaching. 
 

Every guy out there has a price. 

 

 

LIV signed a guy for over 1/2 Billion dollars and their rating is still on the decline.

 

Do you think another signing will help that?

 

I personally wouldn't care who they sign the format is unwatchable in my mind.

[jimecherry]

24 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

LIV signed a guy for over 1/2 Billion dollars and their rating is still on the decline.

 

Do you think another signing will help that?

 

I personally wouldn't care who they sign the format is unwatchable in my mind.

How do you know the ratings 😉

[pingbling23]

yeah dj isnt in his prime anymore but since joining LIV hes had 2 top 10's in majors, LIV player of the year, and 3 wins on the LIV tour.  tough crowd.

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Every guy out there has a price. 

 

 

 

My hope is that is why they are on the PGA Tour.  It's more lucrative than being a teacher, accountant, teaching pro, etc.

 

The guys who took money showed what they care about, money.  They either don't care or don't realize that everything in the pro sports world comes from the fans.

 

The ones who decided to stay on tour like money but they like earning it and feel pretty good about being able to make it by winning.

 

Golf with Liv as the future is the end of everything the players love, no more fan interaction and no more tv coverage.  Can't buy popularity or tv coverage.  I doubt that they realize the golfers who came before them and the fans in the correct demographic made it all possible for them to play golf for a living. 

 

Nothing the Liv players are getting is a result of their actions.

[smashdn]

19 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Sorry, TLDR, but I had to comment on this.  Wouldn’t make much money?  Do you know what they were changing for all access passes to the US Open at LACC?  I’ve paid less for cars.  The USGA did just fine at LACC.

 

I think I see part of your issue.  You read the words but don't take the time to understand the thought they convey.

 

I didn't say "make money", I said, "make as much money."  Those statements have different meanings.

Edited June 13 by smashdn

[Golferpaul]

16 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But in your analogy, it wouldn’t be Phil, Ernie, VJ, etc..  When the LIV defections started, there were only two LIV players in the top 15 OWGR, Rahm at 2 and Cam Smith at 6.  So it would have been like Phil and Padraig Harrington defecting, along with a bunch of decent players in the 15-50 range.  The top guys are overwhelmingly (80%) still on the PGA Tour.

And yet three of them finished in the top five at the masters that year.

[Shilgy]

21 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

🤣

 

So, we can go back in time (TV cheesy swirly screen special effect)….

 

Remember early 2000s? We had TW, Phil, Ernie, VJ. Then Sergio, Goosen, Furyk, Angel. Set TW aside since there is no TW now, but if you took Phil, Ernie, and a few more guys out…it just wouldn’t be as good

 

Ok, now fast forward to 2017, Rory, Spieth, Day, JT, Rickie, Stenson. Same thing, you take out Rory, JT, and a few more guys and it’s not as good.

 

Same thing applies now. It’s not a big mystery ratings are down big. It’s just not as good with 5 top guys out. 

Angel? You mean Cabrera? The guy that never finished a season ranked in the top 10? 🤯

 

Whether they move out because of poor play or going to LIV there is always going to be a changing of the guard.

[smashdn]

@Shilgy

 

What you confused about?  Want me to elucidate something for you?

 

[Titleist99]

13 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But it’s not down 20%.  The ratings have been back up since the early dip, and part of the decline has been due to an overall shift from TV broadcasting to online viewing across all sports.  The idea that golf fan support is truly down 20% is nonsense.  And tournament attendance has been really strong.

100%. LOL!   Especially if anyone believe that the Masters tournament is down 20% from last year is just a little too impressionable. (I kid)😄

 

Golf is strong and never been better......at least according to the USGA CEO Mike Whan.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

18 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

100%. LOL!   Especially if anyone believe that the Masters tournament is down 20% from last year is just a little too impressionable. (I kid)😄

 

Golf is strong and never been better......at least according to the USGA CEO Mike Whan.

 

I've read that beyond streaming such as YouTubeTV (not YouTube) that ratings don't include ESPN+, Masters.com, USGA etc.  These  streaming services for PGA golf content have increase significantly and very rapidly.  As example the PGA Tour digital assets have seen a 20% increase thus far in 2024 over just last year.  This shows fans are engaging in the PGA Tour but in different ways than traditional TV.  

 

With that said, TV revenue is very important so they've got to figure something out.  But I know one thing, that LIV is currently not draining a significant number of fans. LIV's ratings and its growth, both TV and digital, aren't getting out of the basement no matter how much money they throw at it. 

 

 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

@Shilgy

 

What you confused about?  Want me to elucidate something for you?

 

Nope….just didn’t agree.

 

This is what you wrote:

What is wrong with it not being economically stable or viable so long as it produces something interesting to watch?  I don't really care if the Saudis are seeing or will ever see a return on their investments so long as there is interesting golf to watch.

I enjoy watching the events held around the world at different courses, especially the Australian courses.  The PGAT is not going to do there and do that.  A major is not going to the sandbelt courses.  Best option we will get to the see the best players in the world on those courses is the exhibition President's Cup every once in a blue moon.

The PGAT needs to accept a "loss-leader" for the benefit of the fans across the globe.  That is one issue with being economically stable.  Not every tournament is going to be a money maker, nor does it need to be for the benefit of growth, history, fans,footprint, etc.  PGAT hasn't been to the Pacific Northwest in who knows how long.
 

I completely agree with the first paragraph….if the PIF wants to continue dumping oil money into a losing proposition I don’t care either.  But why should the PGA Tour accept a loss leader?  There not enough events to go to every state in the country and some will miss out. As for the PNW getting events to you recall the title of the Ben Hogan movie starring Glenn Ford?  “Follow the Sun”….which is a good description of the tour schedule.  When can you count on good weather in the PNW?  That’s one issue.  I would bet there is are good business reasons involved in why there is no longer a tournament there.  Lack of interest?  Lack of a viable interested sponsor?

[Holy Moses]

[smashdn]

56 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

But why should the PGA Tour accept a loss leader?  

 

For the reasons I already put forth.  Firstly, if the PGAT would have taken the steps to get golf into parts of the world that are interested in it, it might have squelched LIV before it got going.  I get that not everyone agrees with that.  Secondly, I think there is value in going to all of this country, before you saturate certain markets or certain areas of the country.  And certainly before you spend the time they do in Bermuda, DR and Puerto Rico.  Maybe they are spreading a bit of that around with the KF Tour?  I don't really know.

 

56 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

 

There not enough events to go to every state in the country and some will miss out. As for the PNW getting events to you recall the title of the Ben Hogan movie starring Glenn Ford?  “Follow the Sun”….which is a good description of the tour schedule.  When can you count on good weather in the PNW?  

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

That’s one issue.  I would bet there is are good business reasons involved in why there is no longer a tournament there.  Lack of interest?  Lack of a viable interested sponsor?

 

Which is why I am calling it a loss leader.  It might not make good business decision initially.  It might be for the greater good.  You get that initial agreement in place and you put on a good event and you secure a better sponsor down the line.  I have to think there are plenty of well-heeled companies in Seattle and Spokane and up that direction that would maybe be interested. 

Maybe Vancouver could be an option?  

 

(ETA - Looks like the Champions Tour goes to the PNW with the Boeing Classic.  There is a sponsor for a PGAT event I would think.  Starbucks Open?  Alaska Airlines Open?  T-Mobile Open?)

 

Right now there is not an opposite field event (or whatever those are called) against the US Open.  I wouldn't do that necessarily but there is an opening in the schedule.

 

If you wanted to have one of the "silly season" events in the PNW, I just checked the calendar feature on wunderground for both those places and the highs were upper 70's and the lows no lower than around 45.

 

As far as sponsors, how much have you purchased from or used Butterfield?  

 

There are year round golf spots in the continental US.  They don't want to, but they could jostle the schedule too.  Phoenix in March looks to be very similar to Phoenix in October temp-wise.

Edited June 13 by smashdn

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

For the reasons I already put forth.  Firstly, if the PGAT would have taken the steps to get golf into parts of the world that are interested in it, it might have squelched LIV before it got going.  I get that not everyone agrees with that.  Secondly, I think there is value in going to all of this country, before you saturate certain markets or certain areas of the country.  And certainly before you spend the time they do in Bermuda, DR and Puerto Rico.  Maybe they are spreading a bit of that around with the KF Tour?  I don't really know.

 

 

 

 

 

Which is why I am calling it a loss leader.  It might not make good business decision initially.  It might be for the greater good.  You get that initial agreement in place and you put on a good event and you secure a better sponsor down the line.  I have to think there are plenty of well-heeled companies in Seattle and Spokane and up that direction that would maybe be interested. 

Maybe Vancouver could be an option?  

 

Right now there is not an opposite field event (or whatever those are called) against the US Open.  I wouldn't do that necessarily but there is an opening in the schedule.

 

If you wanted to have one of the "silly season" events in the PNW, I just checked the calendar feature on wunderground for both those places and the highs were upper 70's and the lows no lower than around 45.

 

As far as sponsors, how much have you purchased from or used Butterfield?  

 

There are year round golf spots in the continental US.  They don't want to, but they could jostle the schedule too.  Phoenix in March looks to be very similar to Phoenix in October temp-wise.

Never heard of Butterfield…have they expressed interest in sponsoring an event?  Not all corps are ya know.  I don’t recall Microsoft ever sponsoring an event even with Gate’s interest in golf.  
 

 You likely know this but maybe forgot?  The weather in Phoenix may be similar in October as March but is not a good month for golf as most courses are over seeding at that time for the winter season and are unplayable.  And you may have forgotten but the PGA Tour is back to a January-end August schedule.  

[smashdn]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Never heard of Butterfield…have they expressed interest in sponsoring an event?  

 

They currently sponsor a tour event.

[Shilgy]

9 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

They currently sponsor a tour event.

I didn’t recall that. Thank you. Like Butterfield many sponsors do not sponsor an event in their home city.  For example Buick sponsored the event at Torrey for years…not an event in Detroit.  And we don’t know…maybe they have an agreement with the tour to eventually bring an event to Portland or Seattle or???

[NormanFan]

2 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

 

I'm sure if you included streaming, that number would widen as well.

 

I've said this a bunch but golf is a niche sport.  There's not enough of an audience to support two tours in the U.S.  So people are basically voting over and over again for the PGA TOUR.

[Danielson]

3 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

 

It looks bad without streaming but once you add in the 3.4M totally real viewers on caffeine TV (a service everyone has obviously heard of and uses often), the picture looks much better for LIV.

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

There has got to be some mistake. Are you sure that the number isn't 1.48 Million?

 

They just signed a guy for over a half billion dollars......WTF?

[NormanFan]

6 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

There has got to be some mistake. Are you sure that the number isn't 1.48 Million?

 

They just signed a guy for over a half billion dollars......WTF?

 

The Saudis have shown they don't care about the basic principles of economics.  They are just throwing tons of cash around at various ventures in hopes of getting leverage and getting into certain markets by making it uneconomical for others to compete.  I mean Rahm is obviously not worth $500 million to play golf by any measurement (nor is anyone else).  I mean they reportedly threw $1 billion at Tiger Woods and he can't even play decent golf anymore.  But LIV's model isn't predicated on what actually makes market sense.

Edited June 13 by NormanFan

[Titleist99]

16 hours ago, jimecherry said:

How do you know the ratings 😉

Liv ratings are not hard to get. seems theirs is down 20% as well.

[Titleist99]

34 minutes ago, NormanFan said:

 

The Saudis have shown they don't care about the basic principles of economics.  They are just throwing tons of cash around at various ventures in hopes of getting leverage and getting into certain markets by making it uneconomical for others to compete.  I mean Rahm is obviously not worth $500 million to play golf by any measurement (nor is anyone else).  I mean they reportedly threw $1 billion at Tiger Woods and he can't even play decent golf anymore.  But LIV's model isn't predicated on what actually makes market sense.

Is that legal?

[cdnglf]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

For the reasons I already put forth.  Firstly, if the PGAT would have taken the steps to get golf into parts of the world that are interested in it, it might have squelched LIV before it got going.  I get that not everyone agrees with that.  Secondly, I think there is value in going to all of this country, before you saturate certain markets or certain areas of the country.  And certainly before you spend the time they do in Bermuda, DR and Puerto Rico.  Maybe they are spreading a bit of that around with the KF Tour?  I don't really know.

 

 

 

 

 

Which is why I am calling it a loss leader.  It might not make good business decision initially.  It might be for the greater good.  You get that initial agreement in place and you put on a good event and you secure a better sponsor down the line.  I have to think there are plenty of well-heeled companies in Seattle and Spokane and up that direction that would maybe be interested. 

Maybe Vancouver could be an option?  

 

Vancouver had an event for a several years in the late 90s/early 2000s, the Air Canada Championship. Also has hosted the Canadian Open.

 

 

[NormanFan]

6 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Is that legal?

 

In the U.S. it is technically under our market system.  Nothing says you can't undercut a competitor.  It's how Rockfeller built his monopoly in the oil industry at the end of the 19th century, for example.  Only thing stopping the Saudis from entering the NFL, NBA, and others are their rules against national investment funds from investing in franchises but that could seen change as teams become more expensive.

[notsohard]

9 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Is that legal?

Yes...Capitalism. 

[Titleist99]

57 minutes ago, notsohard said:

Yes...Capitalism. 

I don't think that capitalism includes a foreign nation undercutting to either destroy or completely overtake an American business. Not to get political but isn't that what the DOJ is looking at?

[notsohard]

20 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I don't think that capitalism includes a foreign nation undercutting to either destroy or completely overtake an American business. Not to get political but isn't that what the DOJ is looking at?

DOJ is looking at the "alleged antitrust behaviour" of the PGAT.

It's why it has taken time for the two parties to come to an agreement recently.