What is the ruling here?

[kekoa]

So my son was playing in a jr tournament over the weekend.  A kid in the group hits his drive left of a cart path.  The kid is right handed and due to bushes/trees he had no swing at the ball.   He says he want to hit the ball lefty and is now standing on the cart path and wants relief.  Can he actually do this?

[Newby]

8 minutes ago, kekoa said:

So my son was playing in a jr tournament over the weekend.  A kid in the group hits his drive left of a cart path.  The kid is right handed and due to bushes/trees he had no swing at the ball.   He says he want to hit the ball lefty and is now standing on the cart path and wants relief.  Can he actually do this?

Yes. Providing that the stroke is not unreasonable in the circumstances. In effect the 'test' is that is what he would have done if the path was not there?

 

16.1a(3)/1 – Obstruction Interfering with Abnormal Stroke May Not Preclude Player From Taking Relief

In some situations a player may have to adopt an abnormal swing, stance or direction of play in playing his or her ball to accommodate a given situation. If the abnormal stroke is not clearly unreasonable given the circumstances, the player is permitted to take free relief under Rule 16.1.

For example, in the general area, a right-handed player’s ball is so close to a boundary object on the left side of a hole that he or she must make a left-handed swing to play towards the hole. In making the left-handed swing, the player’s stance is interfered with by an immovable obstruction.

The player is allowed relief from the immovable obstruction since use of a left-handed swing is not clearly unreasonable in the circumstances.

After the relief procedure for the left-handed swing is complete, the player may then use a normal right-handed swing for the next stroke. If the obstruction interferes with the right-handed swing, the player may take relief for the right-handed swing under Rule 16.1b or play the ball as it lies.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Newby

[rogolf]

3 hours ago, kekoa said:

So my son was playing in a jr tournament over the weekend.  A kid in the group hits his drive left of a cart path.  The kid is right handed and due to bushes/trees he had no swing at the ball.   He says he want to hit the ball lefty and is now standing on the cart path and wants relief.  Can he actually do this?

As Newby posted above.  However, in the circumstances that you have described, the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path for the left-handed stroke would be on the left side of the cart path, probably further into the bushes and trees.  The Rules provide relief from the cart path, they do not provide that the player will be able to make a stroke at the ball after relief is taken.  For example, the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path could be within the trunk of a tree.

[kekoa]

12 minutes ago, rogolf said:

As Newby posted above.  However, in the circumstances that you have described, the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path for the left-handed stroke would be on the left side of the cart path, probably further into the bushes and trees.  The Rules provide relief from the cart path, they do not provide that the player will be able to make a stroke at the ball after relief is taken.  For example, the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path could be within the trunk of a tree.

so sounds like he would be back to square one if he took proper relief.  Apparently he was able to make the drop to the right of the cart path allowing him to now make a proper right handed swing at the ball.  

[rogolf]

30 minutes ago, kekoa said:

so sounds like he would be back to square one if he took proper relief.  Apparently he was able to make the drop to the right of the cart path allowing him to now make a proper right handed swing at the ball.  

He probably played from a wrong place, incurring a penalty, with a potential serious breach of the Rules if he gained a significant advantage. A serious breach can result in disqualification if not corrected in time. 

[Newby]

9 hours ago, rogolf said:

As Newby posted above.  However, in the circumstances that you have described, the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path for the left-handed stroke would be on the left side of the cart path, probably further into the bushes and trees.  

It would depend on the width of the path of course.

[Mr. Bean]

44 minutes ago, Newby said:

It would depend on the width of the path of course.

 

And how far the ball was from the cart path.

 

It seems more plausible though that the NPOR would have been on the left side of the path if the path was of regular width. But this is pure speculation as we do not know the parameters needed.

[Colin L]

The OP said that the player hit his ball left of the path.  That means the ball was not on the path but with a left handed stance the player's feet would be on it.  It would be a remarkably narrow path for the NPCR not to be to the left 

[Newby]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

The OP said that the player hit his ball left of the path.  That means the ball was not on the path but with a left handed stance the player's feet would be on it.  It would be a remarkably narrow path for the NPCR not to be to the left 

That doesn't mean it isn't narrow. It may not be a cart path.

[Colin L]

 

46 minutes ago, Newby said:

That doesn't mean it isn't narrow. It may not be a cart path.

 No indeed.   A  ball just short of edge of the path  maximises the possibility of the NPCR being on the right hand side, does it not?  There will be point at which a path could be narrow enough that on taking a stance the player's feet are on the other side without interference.  I'm wondering - and this is entirely speculative - if the path is just that bit wider, enough for interference to start, would the NPCR inevitably have to be on the left side.   

 

I feel an obligation to measure  it out and see but have a stronger inclination to stay where I an and snooze in the warm sunshine.  It's somewhat academic.   😎

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

I feel an obligation to measure  it out and see but have a stronger inclination to stay where I an and snooze in the warm sunshine.  It's somewhat academic.   😎

Warm sunshine 😲  it's freezing rain here 😠

[kekoa]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

That doesn't mean it isn't narrow. It may not be a cart path.

It was an actual cart path.  I'm not sure if there is a regulation cart path width.

[rogolf]

13 minutes ago, kekoa said:

It was an actual cart path.  I'm not sure if there is a regulation cart path width.

I'm sure there is no such "regulation" on cart path widths.  However, it is quite logical to have them a foot or two wider than the width of the wheels of the cart!

[Krt22]

It sounds like an improper drop to me. The NPR for a left swing would have been further left of the path 

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-16.html

[jobin]

IMO, all cart paths must be paved.  Or at least covered with 'non-original' stuff, like wood chips.  But i'm not certain about crushed gravel stones. 

Anyway, we never bother: just get away far enough to take the next shot.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, jobin said:

IMO, all cart paths must be paved.  Or at least covered with 'non-original' stuff, like wood chips.  But i'm not certain about crushed gravel stones. 

Anyway, we never bother: just get away far enough to take the next shot.

Hopefully, "far enough away" is in accordance with the Rules?

[Newby]

7 hours ago, jobin said:

 But i'm not certain about crushed gravel stones. 

 

What's the difference between them and wood chips?

[jobin]

Well, wood chips burn, stones do not.  And wood chips will slowly be consumed by fungi and stones are totally inorganic.  Stones are hard, wood chips not so much. Wood chips may be 'made' from the tree next to the path, but almost always stones need to be quarried elsewhere and transported to the area.

 

And wood chips are never an ingredient in concrete, but stones certainly may be, as when the path is paved with concrete.

 

I only wanted to point out that the august Rules of Golf can be convoluted and well beyond our simple comprehension.

Quote

 

 

[Colin L]

5 hours ago, jobin said:

Well, wood chips burn, stones do not.  And wood chips will slowly be consumed by fungi and stones are totally inorganic.  Stones are hard, wood chips not so much. Wood chips may be 'made' from the tree next to the path, but almost always stones need to be quarried elsewhere and transported to the area.

 

And wood chips are never an ingredient in concrete, but stones certainly may be, as when the path is paved with concrete.

 

I only wanted to point out that the august Rules of Golf can be convoluted and well beyond our simple comprehension.

 

And whether the added material covering a path burns or not has what to do with the Rules of Golf?

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, jobin said:

Well, wood chips burn, stones do not.  And wood chips will slowly be consumed by fungi and stones are totally inorganic.  Stones are hard, wood chips not so much. Wood chips may be 'made' from the tree next to the path, but almost always stones need to be quarried elsewhere and transported to the area.

 

And wood chips are never an ingredient in concrete, but stones certainly may be, as when the path is paved with concrete.

 

 

From the Rules of Golf point of view a road or a path is artificially surfaced if ANY material has been brought onto it to create a surface.

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

From the Rules of Golf point of view a road or a path is artificially surfaced if ANY material has been brought onto it to create a surface.

I play regularly in the Pinehurst area in North Carolina, and the sandy soils lend themselves to forming un-surfaced roads and paths.  Generally, these are played as General Area, even though they are specifically used as roads, totally in keeping with the way the Rules are written.

[Abh159]

Out of curiosity... where would the border of the "path" end if it's made of something like loose stones or wood chips?

 

Is it where the majority of the material ends, where the last loose rock is, or somewhere in the middle?

 

Concrete paths have clear/clean lines, but not so much if you're using loose material.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Abh159

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, Abh159 said:

Out of curiosity... where would the border of the "path" end if it's made of something like loose stones or wood chips?

 

Is it where the majority of the material ends, where the last loose rock is, or somewhere in the middle?

 

Concrete paths have clear/clean lines, but not so much if you're using loose material.

 

The difference in cultures. Off the top of my head I can only remember one club that has asphalt paths. It's very likely it's not the only club but I can't remember others right now. Gravel paths do tend to spread out, and the grass likes to start growing over them but usually it really isn't that difficult to see where the edge of the solid path is. If uncertain, you can always use a tee or a pitch fork to check if there's gravel beneath the grass. Naturally a single pebble is a loose impediment and can be moved as long as the ball doesn't move.

 

As a referee you mark the edge of the questionable areas as GUR and attach them to the path (with a local rule). The problematic areas are usually only the starts of the paths near greens. The need to mark the side of the path is pretty rare unless the path goes around the green and is in a bad shape. But, the more you mark them, the fewer calls you'll get from players and the faster they'll play.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Abh159 said:

Out of curiosity... where would the border of the "path" end if it's made of something like loose stones or wood chips?

 

Is it where the majority of the material ends, where the last loose rock is, or somewhere in the middle?

 

Concrete paths have clear/clean lines, but not so much if you're using loose material.

 

The Definition says "Artificially surfaced roads and paths, including their artificial borders."

 

So the foundation of the road/path is also part of the obstruction. Loose material outside the foundation is just LI. Sometimes it is difficult to say where the foundation ends and there one needs to use common sense and ask oneself whether a ball is meant to be played from there or not.

 

Most often it is not crucial where the NPCR is as there will be the 1 cl to work with.

[Abh159]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The Definition says "Artificially surfaced roads and paths, including their artificial borders."

 

So the foundation of the road/path is also part of the obstruction. Loose material outside the foundation is just LI. Sometimes it is difficult to say where the foundation ends and there one needs to use common sense and ask oneself whether a ball is meant to be played from there or not.

 

Most often it is not crucial where the NPCR is as there will be the 1 cl to work with.

 

Thanks. I can really only think of a handful of clubs I've played where they had non-paved cart paths so this isn't something I run into frequently. Curiosity was the primary driver behind my question. 

 

Sure you can move loose impediments, but when are the rocks no longer loose impediments and become part of the path from which you would get relief. 

 

Below is sort of what I was picturing in my head when I posed the question. Obviously with surfaces like these you'll get some run off of the material over time (from rain, wear and tear, and etc.). I was wondering if there was an actual rule defining the boundary or if it was more of a common sense situation.

 

[Colin L]

Firstly, stones are loose impediments and can be moved whether on or off the pathway.  The only restriction is that they cannot be moved if they are embedded in the ground such, for instance, that they would have to be prised out.

 

As to indistinct edges they can be problematic but it's really a case by case matter.  There's no rule and given the variety of situations possible there couldn't really be one.  The path in your photo actually looks quite well defined!

 

As a rough guide, I would tend to give relief if, for example,  gravel had been shifted beyond the possible edge of a path and trodden into the ground such that the player would not be allowed to move the stones.  That's not so  likely  to happen with wood chips.  Ideally, you want paths to have some kind of edging.

 

You have to make your best, honest judgement and if it's really difficult to decide and really important, play two balls, one as the ball the lies and the other having taken relief  and let someone else decide [Rule 20.1c(3)].  Be sure to let another player know which ball you want to count.

[puttnforthe8]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:06 PM, kekoa said:

So my son was playing in a jr tournament over the weekend.  A kid in the group hits his drive left of a cart path.  The kid is right handed and due to bushes/trees he had no swing at the ball.   He says he want to hit the ball lefty and is now standing on the cart path and wants relief.  Can he actually do this?

 

 

Just for a visual - this should be close to the scenario?  NPR, because of the switch to left, is dropping in the bushes versus getting to go all the way across. 

 

[davep043]

1 hour ago, puttnforthe8 said:

Just for a visual - this should be close to the scenario?  NPR, because of the switch to left, is dropping in the bushes versus getting to go all the way across. 

That's the way I picture it as well.  The path would have to be very very narrow for the NPCR to be on the opposite side.  

[kekoa]

3 hours ago, puttnforthe8 said:

 

 

Just for a visual - this should be close to the scenario?  NPR, because of the switch to left, is dropping in the bushes versus getting to go all the way across. 

 

That is exactly the scenario.  nice one!!

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, davep043 said:

That's the way I picture it as well.  The path would have to be very very narrow for the NPCR to be on the opposite side.  

 

Regardless of how narrow the path would be the NPCR would be on the left side if the ball is not on the path and the player's feet are entirely on the path. The distance to move player's feet on the left side of the path is always shorter than moving the ball (and the player) on the right side of the path.

 

Say, the distance between top of the player's heels and the heel of the club is 1 yard and the width of the path is 1 yard. If the player's feet are just barely inside the path then the player's clubface would be outside the path as well as the ball. If the player moves to left they will be off the path having moved that 1 yard. But if they move to the right they will have to move 1 yard + the clubface.

 

Situation is different if the path is so narrow that the ball is just outside it on the left hand side and only the player's toes are on the path. Then the NPCR would be on the right hand side.

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Mr. Bean