Rule question on lost ball

[Charlie1961]

I was playing a par 4 water down the left side. Pine trees beyond water. My t ball hit a pine tree solidly. 10 yards beyond the penalty area. The ground was clean under and around the pine trees. I did not see the ball off the tree however common sence says it rebounded back into the hazzard. What should be the ruling? Lost ball stroke and distance or play that it entered the hazzard by the pine tree?

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Charlie1961

[Abh159]

1 minute ago, Charlie1961 said:

I was playing a par 4 water down the left side. Pine trees beyond water. My t ball hit a pine tree solidly. 10 yards beyond the penalty area. The ground was clean under and around the pine trees. I did not see the ball off the tree however common sence says it rebounded back into the hazzard. What should be the ruling? Lost ball stroke and distance or play that it entered the hazzard by the pine tree?

 

 

It would be hard to play it as if it "entered the penalty area by the pine tree" considering you (nor anyone else?) actually saw it enter the penalty area by the pine tree.

 

Rule 17.1c - "if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2."

[596]

Tee up again, hitting three. 

[nsxguy]

44 minutes ago, Charlie1961 said:

I was playing a par 4 water down the left side. Pine trees beyond water. My t ball hit a pine tree solidly. 10 yards beyond the penalty area. The ground was clean under and around the pine trees. I did not see the ball off the tree however common sence says it rebounded back into the hazzard. What should be the ruling? Lost ball stroke and distance or play that it entered the hazzard by the pine tree?

 

 

As Abh pointed out, if it is known OR virtually certain the ball is in the PA you may take PA relief. If not, it's lost.

 

KVC is 95% sure.

 

Were you 95% sure it was in the PA ?  Doesn't sound like it.

 

[llewol007]

It is a lost ball. You said it yourself with not being able to see the ball enter into the hazard. Retee with the stroke and distance.

[Robert72]

How can anyone ever be sure a ball is lost in a hazard?  The ball is lost!

 

I would deem the ball lost in the hazard, keep the distance and drop with a one stroke penalty.

[nsxguy]

16 hours ago, Robert72 said:

How can anyone ever be sure a ball is lost in a hazard?  The ball is lost!

 

I would deem the ball lost in the hazard, keep the distance and drop with a one stroke penalty.

 

Sounds like you feel very strongly both ways.

[iknowbagu]

No idea where OP is, but up here in the Northeast where we're just happy enough to be out there in November, the governing bodies tend cut us some slack and that would be a hazard. April through October it's three off the tee.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, iknowbagu said:

No idea where OP is, but up here in the Northeast where we're just happy enough to be out there in November, the governing bodies tend cut us some slack and that would be a hazard. April through October it's three off the tee.

 

Huh ?

[iknowbagu]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Huh ?

 

Just being cheeky. My groups simply tend to grant a liberty here and there this late in the season. 

[iutodd]

I honestly think the lost ball rule needs to be updated - sometimes I simply can't see what happened to the ball.

 

Like - there is a difference between "the ball is in the middle of the forest and I have no chance of ever finding it" and "I hit this one a bit left and it went over the hill by that pine tree but I don't know exactly where it is" and then you search and you can't find it.

 

I don't know why I get extra penalized for not being able to see through physical objects or for not having the ability to 100% track a 1.68 inch ball traveling 100 miles an hour 225 yards away.  Especially as a solo golfer or a golfer who gets paired with people who aren't always fully engaged on helping me track my shots.  Like how often do pro golfers "lose" a ball that isn't OB or in a hazard?  I feel like ShotLink should have that data but I can't find it.  I'm guessing it's pretty rare.  I don't have marshals or fans watching what happens to my ball so they should give me MORE lenience and not less.

 

There is a local rule that's available now which is a variation on the usual "stroke and distance" penalty. It says you can estimate the spot where the ball is lost and then drop the ball on the nearest fairway edge for a two stroke penalty.  In essence it takes having to this "three off the tee" out of the equation so you're hitting four into the green from the fairway.

 

Why can't I just drop at the spot where I estimate the ball to have been lost for a one stroke penalty?  Or at least give me the option. 

[Wham49]

if you know the ball went into the tree and cant find it, it is virtually certain that you cant find it becasue it is in the hazard. Drop, hit 3 and move on. In the summer too, becasue unless your playing for big money or on tour nobody else cares.

[Chunkitgood]

You’re supposed to play one ball, and play it as it lies.  All rules about penalties and even of distance should be considered boons the golf gods have given those unable to play that way.

 

Instead they b**** and moan.

[rogolf]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:02 AM, iutodd said:

I honestly think the lost ball rule needs to be updated - sometimes I simply can't see what happened to the ball.

 

Like - there is a difference between "the ball is in the middle of the forest and I have no chance of ever finding it" and "I hit this one a bit left and it went over the hill by that pine tree but I don't know exactly where it is" and then you search and you can't find it.

 

I don't know why I get extra penalized for not being able to see through physical objects or for not having the ability to 100% track a 1.68 inch ball traveling 100 miles an hour 225 yards away.  Especially as a solo golfer or a golfer who gets paired with people who aren't always fully engaged on helping me track my shots.  Like how often do pro golfers "lose" a ball that isn't OB or in a hazard?  I feel like ShotLink should have that data but I can't find it.  I'm guessing it's pretty rare.  I don't have marshals or fans watching what happens to my ball so they should give me MORE lenience and not less.

 

There is a local rule that's available now which is a variation on the usual "stroke and distance" penalty. It says you can estimate the spot where the ball is lost and then drop the ball on the nearest fairway edge for a two stroke penalty.  In essence it takes having to this "three off the tee" out of the equation so you're hitting four into the green from the fairway.

 

Why can't I just drop at the spot where I estimate the ball to have been lost for a one stroke penalty?  Or at least give me the option. 

You have an option of a one stroke penalty- play it from where you last played. Or, for two strokes, drop it equidistant from the hole from where you think it was lost, including moving out to the edge of the fairway on that equidistant arc. Actually quite a generous option. 

[iutodd]

The local rule literally makes you pick a spot where you think the ball was lost as a part of the process.  Why the extra step and extra stroke just because the ball was "lost"?

 

https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/stroke-and-distance-relief.html

 

I found that article from 2017.  They outline their concerns about estimating the spot where the ball was lost.  But now the local rule asks for the player to do exactly that!  They also admit that most players just drop where they think the ball was and take a stroke penalty.  They're being snooty about things and it's annoying.

 

It also says that it was at one point the case that distance was the only penalty.  Or at one point it was three strokes.  

 

I just think golf rules shouldn't go out of their way to penalize the golfer any more than they have to.

 

And IMO stroke and distance (or TWO strokes and no distance) is overly penal - because of course you can also take stroke and distance relief from water hazards too...BUT (essentially) NOBODY DOES THIS because distance is so penal.  You always take the closer option because it's ALWAYS fewer strokes to hole out from closer to the hole.

 

I would argue that water hazard penalties would be similar to the mandatory stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball if they allowed you to rehit the shot from the same spot with no stroke penalty at all - just distance.  Because dropping for one stroke by water hazards GIVES YOU the distance you hit the ball.  

 

I guess I just don't see why I get distance taken away from me when I can't find the ball even though it just went a little right and is in among some trees and some leaves.

[Newby]

31 minutes ago, iutodd said:

The local rule literally makes you pick a spot where you think the ball was lost as a part of the process.  Why the extra step and extra stroke just because the ball was "lost"?

 

https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/stroke-and-distance-relief.html

 

I found that article from 2017.  They outline their concerns about estimating the spot where the ball was lost.  But now the local rule asks for the player to do exactly that!  They also admit that most players just drop where they think the ball was and take a stroke penalty.  They're being snooty about things and it's annoying.

 

It also says that it was at one point the case that distance was the only penalty.  Or at one point it was three strokes.  

 

I just think golf rules shouldn't go out of their way to penalize the golfer any more than they have to.

 

And IMO stroke and distance (or TWO strokes and no distance) is overly penal - because of course you can also take stroke and distance relief from water hazards too...BUT (essentially) NOBODY DOES THIS because distance is so penal.  You always take the closer option because it's ALWAYS fewer strokes to hole out from closer to the hole.

 

I would argue that water hazard penalties would be similar to the mandatory stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball if they allowed you to rehit the shot from the same spot with no stroke penalty at all - just distance.  Because dropping for one stroke by water hazards GIVES YOU the distance you hit the ball.  

 

I guess I just don't see why I get distance taken away from me when I can't find the ball even though it just went a little right and is in among some trees and some leaves.

You have a fixed reference point if your ball is lost in a penalty area - the point at which it last crossed the margin. You don't have any fixed reference if your ball simply cannot be found.

[iutodd]

My point continues to be that the local rule allows the player to create a reference point for the "lost" ball.  Because you do have a reference - the last point at which you saw the ball combined with the expected area the ball should be in based on path and speed.

 

And we do basically the same thing with water hazards/penalty areas btw - we do our best to guess where it crossed and make our drop appropriately.  

 

I will just continue to think that the stroke and distance penalty is unnecessarily harsh, especially for solo golfers who only have one set of eyes.  But the USGA doesn't allow solo rounds to count for handicap so I guess they don't care that much.

 

I wonder if it's possible (or even a good idea) to create an easier to figure out and understand set of rules for "solo/casual" golf.  Has GolfWRX ever set out to create such a thing?  

[Colin L]

6 minutes ago, iutodd said:

I wonder if it's possible (or even a good idea) to create an easier to figure out and understand set of rules for "solo/casual" golf.  Has GolfWRX ever set out to create such a thing?  

Why would anyone spend their time writing rules for a bunch of people who want to disregard the official Rules?  They'd just disregard the ones you wrote as well. 

[Colin L]

7 hours ago, Colin L said:

Why would anyone spend their time writing rules for a bunch of people who want to disregard the official Rules?  They'd just disregard the ones you wrote as well. 

I think that must sound more acerbic than it was meant to be.  It was intended to be a serious point but expressed with a smile.  I should have added a 😃.

[antip]

14 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I think that must sound more acerbic than it was meant to be.  It was intended to be a serious point but expressed with a smile.  I should have added a 😃.

Sounded very sensible to me, no smiley warranted.

[davep043]

13 hours ago, iutodd said:

But the USGA doesn't allow solo rounds to count for handicap so I guess they don't care that much.

Solo rounds are not accepted for handicapping anywhere in the world.  You have the option to play any way you choose.

[Pastit]

On 11/15/2022 at 7:02 PM, iutodd said:

I honestly think the lost ball rule needs to be updated - sometimes I simply can't see what happened to the ball.

 

Like - there is a difference between "the ball is in the middle of the forest and I have no chance of ever finding it" and "I hit this one a bit left and it went over the hill by that pine tree but I don't know exactly where it is" and then you search and you can't find it.

 

I don't know why I get extra penalized for not being able to see through physical objects or for not having the ability to 100% track a 1.68 inch ball traveling 100 miles an hour 225 yards away.  Especially as a solo golfer or a golfer who gets paired with people who aren't always fully engaged on helping me track my shots.  Like how often do pro golfers "lose" a ball that isn't OB or in a hazard?  I feel like ShotLink should have that data but I can't find it.  I'm guessing it's pretty rare.  I don't have marshals or fans watching what happens to my ball so they should give me MORE lenience and not less.

 

There is a local rule that's available now which is a variation on the usual "stroke and distance" penalty. It says you can estimate the spot where the ball is lost and then drop the ball on the nearest fairway edge for a two stroke penalty.  In essence it takes having to this "three off the tee" out of the equation so you're hitting four into the green from the fairway.

 

Why can't I just drop at the spot where I estimate the ball to have been lost for a one stroke penalty?  Or at least give me the option. 

Why not carry a chainsaw, play with lumberjacks, fell the trees and call them loose impediments ?

[iutodd]

On 11/17/2022 at 4:41 PM, Colin L said:

Why would anyone spend their time writing rules for a bunch of people who want to disregard the official Rules?  They'd just disregard the ones you wrote as well. 

 

I could argue that this is already what the USGA does.  They have the official rules and then golfers get out to the course and they do what they do based on their knowledge of the rules and what they agree upon as a group.  Which means there is a difference from where most golfers are and where the USGA is at - in the article I posted from the USGA above they openly admit that most golfers, when the ball is "lost" just agree with one another that the ball was lost around this spot and they drop there for a one stroke penalty.

 

And then they spend the next 1000 words trying to explain why that is bad and they don't really have a strong argument for it.  The strongest argument is probably the idea that @Newby mentions: the lack of a fixed reference point. 

 

But as I keep mentioning - the newish local rule (as I understand things) allows the golfer to create that reference point.  So it's in the rules now that players can do this - they just need to take the next logical step and allow for a drop at that spot.

 

I just feel like the USGA rules are for a certain kind of golf.  I'm sure a lot of golfers play that way.  I don't and I'm sure a lot of other golfers don't.  Why not create a set of rules that is closer to where golfers actually are?

[sui generis]

10 minutes ago, iutodd said:

But as I keep mentioning - the newish local rule (as I understand things) allows the golfer to create that reference point.  So it's in the rules now that players can do this - they just need to take the next logical step and allow for a drop at that spot.

 

Here's a Local Rule example for you:

 

BALL LOST or OUT OF BOUNDS When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, provided there is not a provisional ball in play, the player may use the Local Rule for Alternative to Stroke and Distance.

 

1) Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds.

 

2) From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway.

 

3) Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc.

 

4) Add two penalty strokes.

 

It's based on E-5 from this:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=5

[davep043]

4 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Here's a Local Rule example for you:

 

BALL LOST or OUT OF BOUNDS When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, provided there is not a provisional ball in play, the player may use the Local Rule for Alternative to Stroke and Distance.

 

1) Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds.

 

2) From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway.

 

3) Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc.

 

4) Add two penalty strokes.

 

It's based on E-5 from this:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=5

Absolutely correct.  And the important part of this, the TWO stroke penalty provides a similar result to the standard Stroke and Distance rule for  ball Lost or OB.  I know you understand this, of course, but it falls short of the one stroke penalty many folks would like.  To me its a fair compromise for casual play, but not a rule I'd propose for truly competitive golf.

[T_Golf_23]

On 11/14/2022 at 12:04 AM, iknowbagu said:

 

Just being cheeky. My groups simply tend to grant a liberty here and there this late in the season. 

You can’t see where any of the balls go up here this time of year with the sun glare. Even if yon know where it landed….. bring the leaf blower. 
 

we keep all the balls we find all season and just drop them in the best guess area… 

Edited November 21, 2022 by T_Golf_23

[sui generis]

24 minutes ago, davep043 said:

not a rule I'd propose for truly competitive golf.

 

I see it differently, Dave, however, I can only offer an anecdote. After four years of use of E-5 at my club, no change in any competition would have resulted from the non-use of E-5. The player always has a choice to play a provisional or depend on E-5. While we may not see E-5 on TV anytime soon, I think that it is very useful otherwise. 🙂

[2bGood]

On 11/11/2022 at 9:54 PM, Robert72 said:

How can anyone ever be sure a ball is lost in a hazard?  The ball is lost!

 

You only have to be 95% sure and that it really no too tough. The most straight forward examples:

You see the ball go into the penally area

Someone else see the ball go into the penalty area

You find your ball in the penalty area.

[RCGA]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:32 PM, iutodd said:

I honestly think the lost ball rule needs to be updated - sometimes I simply can't see what happened to the ball.

 

It's a horrible rule.  

 

For example: Blind tee shot with water up there on the left. You hit your tee shot slightly left and can't find the ball walking up to it. You didn't see it go in the hazard (it's a blind tee shot after all), and you can't find it in the rough. 

 

Is it in the water? In the rough? Took a bad bounce and is somewhere completely different? Picked up by another group? 

 

My suggestion: Lost ball is treated the same way as a lateral hazard. 

 

"Hey guys, it's gotta be either in the hazard or somewhere in the rough and we can't see it. I'll drop one and hit my 3rd."  

 

[sui generis]

10 minutes ago, RCGA said:

Blind tee shot with water up there on the left. You hit your tee shot slightly left and can't find the ball walking up to it. You didn't see it go in the hazard (it's a blind tee shot after all), and you can't find it in the rough. 

 

Is it in the water? In the rough? Took a bad bounce and is somewhere completely different? Picked up by another group? 

 

Gee, your course management isn't so good on this hole. Perhaps you should have taken the 1 iron off the tee. But, no, you should blame the stoopid Rules instead. 🙄