Rogue st max ls vs standard paradym

[belh22]

Looking for comparisons between the two. Launch spin and forgiveness and dispersion. Also anyone with negative AOA with insight would be great. Tend to be high spin and slight toe strike. Thanks everyone! 

[BJG718]

Bump! Interested in this too.

[Mobert19]

Negative AoA at times and high spin off driver subsequently. I demoed the Paradym with my 1K shaft and it launched higher and spun about 300-400 RPMs more. Didn’t really notice all that much difference in forgiveness to be honest. Didn’t really like the crack sound either. Put the Max LS back in and carried on 

[Radeon962]

Trackman Range only for me and I am sticking with the Rogue Max LS.  Hit about 20 Callaway range balls each head, including a few old ProV1x’s from my winter bag. My final swings with potential clubs are always hitting some gamed balls to really see how a driver feels, sounds and flies.  
 

Standard Paradym vs Rogue ST Max LS.  Both 10.5*. Gamer shaft is a Fuji Ventus VeloCore TR Blue 5s and also tried a Kai’li White 60s.

 

Looks - Paradym.  Really a beautiful head.

 

Feel - Max LS.  Surprised by this but Max LS feels more solid.  Paradym felt a bit hollow and light.  Same swingweight at D3 at 44.75” playing length.  

 

Sound - Max LS.  More of a dull thud.  Paradym was more metallic/crack sound.

 

Distance - LS Max.  Avg 262 carry.  Paradym avg. 259 carry.  I would imagine on the course that distance would be a tossup over the course of a season of play. 

 

Ballspeed - both right around 155

 

Launch - around 15* for both

 

Dispersion - Paradym by a very slight margin. 

 

No spin #’s or club head speed with the Trackman range but seemed to be close between the two.

 

Paradym seems to retain a bit more ball speed on off-center hits but sound and feel  also changes more on off-center hits.  
 

Played the Max LS for most of last season and I am comfortable with it and I did not see enough improvement with the Paradym to keep it.  Max LS is forgiving enough, feels and sounds excellent and distance is a toss up.  
 

If you were fit into your current driver, I would not expect significant improvements unless you had a poor fitting previously.  We are past the point of huge gains year-to-year if you are playing a driver that was properly fit.  

IMO…. It comes down to looks, feel, sound and perhaps marginal dispersion improvements.  Distance will be a tossup.  
 

Or it may be if you just like shiny, new things then give it a go.  I am a buy and try type as other peoples opinions can get you in the ballpark but only you and your swing can really tell what works and what does not.

 

Good luck!
 

[pollock21]

I demo’d the standard Paradym as well and enjoyed it, but numbers were very similar to my max LS. I was launching both with similar ballspeed and same launch/spin. 13-14 launch around 2000-2100. Seem to perform very similar, although I was hitting the Paradym with the Kai-li 6x and my gamer with a Ventus TR blue 6TX

[KGolfCT]

Own the Max LS, hit a demo with the Paradigm and it couldn't beat my gamer. 6.5 RDX Blue shaft in my gamer and was able to put that in the demo. Similar ball flight, slightly more spin with the Paradigm, distance was better with the Rogue on carry and role out.

 

Paradigm is a nice club, and would potentially buy if I didn't already own the GOAT.

[roxald]

I tried the Standard Paradym and 🔶🔶🔶Paradym Vs my Max Ls and will not change.
The max Ls is more consistant than both, better feel than the standard but both the 🔶🔶🔶 Paradym and Max Ls feel and sound great.

The Max Ls spins a couple hundred less than on average than the 🔶🔶🔶, but launching lower too.

I stayed with the cheaper more consistent Max Ls.

I’m happy and no reason to upgrade.

I also decided to try the Hzrdus black Gen 4 6.5/70 gram in the Ls and it’s in the bag. low/Low with smoothness and some kick. I suggest more people give this one a try.

Different than the previous versions.

Just a great shaft!

 

Rox

 

[KevCannon]

I am still gaming my Rogue St LS as well, really thought Callaway built a great driver with those Rogue ST’s. My only complaint (and it’s sort of a big 1) is the stupid safety screws on the back weight ports. In today’s world of adjustable drivers, and fwys/hybrids, how can you release a series of drivers WITHOUT any way to quickly adjust swing weight. I had lead tape on bottom of mine (placed mostly down middle of sole towards face, and 1-2 grams toe side), finally got it hot melted and it sounds and feels even better. Also still love the matte black crown. That’s biggest difference with Paradym, being able to adjust swing weight and fine tune launch/spin. A lot of people found great numbers with using heavy weight in back on the triple diamond for example.

[phizzy30]

Recently picked up a Paradym triple diamond and tested the entire Rogue ST line up last year.  Rogue MAX LS was slightly lower launch but same spin as my current setup but that may have to do more with the shaft.  Getting slightly higher ball speeds with the Paradym.  I prefer the feel and looks of my Paradym over the Rogue.  Spin numbers are more consistent across the face with the Paradym. 

[dmeeksDC]

9 hours ago, roxald said:

I tried the Standard Paradym and 🔶🔶🔶Paradym Vs my Max Ls and will not change.
The max Ls is more consistant than both, better feel than the standard but both the 🔶🔶🔶 Paradym and Max Ls feel and sound great.

The Max Ls spins a couple hundred less than on average than the 🔶🔶🔶, but launching lower too.

I stayed with the cheaper more consistent Max Ls.

I’m happy and no reason to upgrade.

I also decided to try the Hzrdus black Gen 4 6.5/70 gram in the Ls and it’s in the bag. low/Low with smoothness and some kick. I suggest more people give this one a try.

Different than the previous versions.

Just a great shaft!

 

Rox

 

Any way to tell which are the Gen 4 HZRDUS Black shafts? I read your review with interest as I gamed a HZRDUS Black a few years ago and really hated it. Felt dead and stout. Got rid of it. Then I had one late last year as the stock shaft in a Titleist 7 wood and it felt great, much different. I am guessing that was a later version. Is there any indication on the shaft as to which generation it is?

 

[me05501]

On 3/26/2023 at 12:04 PM, Radeon962 said:

Paradym seems to retain a bit more ball speed on off-center hits but sound and feel  also changes more on off-center hits.  

 

You know there aren't many areas where drivers can really be improved, but this is one I can imagine being super helpful. Getting clearly audible feedback on strike quality would help a lot of players, whether to reinforce the feedback from ideal swings or to let us know we're not finding the middle. 

 

With today's level of design and manufacturing control over faces it seems like it would be possible to "tune" the sound of contact between the sweet spot and the not quite as sweet spots. 

[jeffrey r]

2 hours ago, dmeeksDC said:

Any way to tell which are the Gen 4 HZRDUS Black shafts? I read your review with interest as I gamed a HZRDUS Black a few years ago and really hated it. Felt dead and stout. Got rid of it. Then I had one late last year as the stock shaft in a Titleist 7 wood and it felt great, much different. I am guessing that was a later version. Is there any indication on the shaft as to which generation it is?

 

 

The Gen 4 seem to have pretty distinctive graphics.  Should be easy to distinguish Gen 4 from the previous generations.  Off the top of my head, it went Black, Smoke Black, Smoke Black RDX, and now Gen 4.  I really enjoy the Smoke Black and RDX.  Firm, stable and consistent, but not overly stiff or boardy.  I am sure the Gen 4 is great, but I have not tried it yet.

 

HZRDUS Black Gen 4 Graphite Wood Shaft | True Temper Golf (truetempersports.com)

 

[roxald]

Thanks Jeffery R!!!

That’s the ☝️ 

 

Rox

[roxald]

On 4/25/2023 at 6:24 AM, dmeeksDC said:

Any way to tell which are the Gen 4 HZRDUS Black shafts? I read your review with interest as I gamed a HZRDUS Black a few years ago and really hated it. Felt dead and stout. Got rid of it. Then I had one late last year as the stock shaft in a Titleist 7 wood and it felt great, much different. I am guessing that was a later version. Is there any indication on the shaft as to which generation it is?

 

Jeffery has it posted below.

Great for a Lower ballflight and spin with out the Harshness of previous versions. More feel than the RDX model too!

 

Rox

Edited December 27, 2023 by roxald
Correct spelling error

[dmeeksDC]

35 minutes ago, roxald said:

Jeffery has it posted below.

Great for a Lower ballflight and spin with out the Harshness of previous versions. More fell than the RDX model too!

 

Rox

I’ll check it out. I like those kinds of shafts in 7 woods, which already have plenty of height and spin. I believe it was the Black RDX that came in the Titleist TSi2 fairway. That one felt better than the first one. 

[03trdblack]

From a technical perspective, the standard Paradym has an MOI that's around 500 points higher than the Rogue ST Max LS.  The Paradym has a lower and further back center of gravity but also has a slightly more draw biased COG (when the weight is in the neutral position) than the Rogue.  If you move the slider to the fade position, the COG location becomes very similar and you keep the higher MOI rating.  On paper the Rogue should spin a little less, especially for a downward angle of attack but you'd need to compare side by side to be sure.

[belh22]

what makes it spin less with a downward angle of attack?

[780Chris]

I hit the 9° Paradym with the HZRDUS Black Gen 4 6.5 60g in a fitting and ended up ordering the Rogue ST Max LS 9° with the same shaft because I preferred the look (and price) of the Rogue. The numbers are very similar for me, maybe like 100 RPM lower spin with the Rogue LS but still good. I was launching both in the 14°-15° range. In my hands they are basically the same driver in different colors.

[phizzy30]

22 hours ago, 780Chris said:

I hit the 9° Paradym with the HZRDUS Black Gen 4 6.5 60g in a fitting and ended up ordering the Rogue ST Max LS 9° with the same shaft because I preferred the look (and price) of the Rogue. The numbers are very similar for me, maybe like 100 RPM lower spin with the Rogue LS but still good. I was launching both in the 14°-15° range. In my hands they are basically the same driver in different colors.

 I disagree.  I've tested the Rogue ST line and have the Paradym triple diamond.  They both feel different but I'd imagine it's from the forged ti for the Paradym.  Also saw 1-2* higher launch with the Paradym with the same spin.  

[Tampajoe3]

I tried the Paradym with the Kai li blue and just didn't like it as much as the LS.  It felt great, but I struggled with direction.  The LS has the Ventus blue shaft btw. 

I hit some good drives with the Paradym, but just never got the confidence with it like the LS.  I just struggled with my alignment.  

I do however have a Triple diamond on order.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Tampajoe3

[bvanlieu]

Bringing this topic back since its the exact two models when searching. 

 

How are folks getting along? Any new thoughts a few months later?

 

I'm testing out a standard Paradym over my Max LS which is a darn good head. I am not seeing much of anything other then aesthetics with the gamer 105-107 swing for me. The LS can more easily produce 2000-2200 spin rates, P tends to be a smidge higher (both 9d heads) but also doesn't get quite as high. Kind of what I expect, bit more spin stable. If I have to quibble with my delivery, my AoA is only a few deg up, and the 2000-2200 shots could use a bit more launch for optimal carry. Mid 2000's spin isn't bad for 12d launch. 

 

Where I see it be a bit more interesting is I am working on a few more MPH as we all are, and tend to not swing as hard on coure.

 

On range, when swinging 109-110 the LS can produce higher spin misses, heal/push misses for me.

 

Paradym seems to be a bit straiter (higher MOI for sure) and bit more spin consistent in the mid-upper 2K range for not so great strikes.

 

Last day of the Cally 2X trade in so I am at an inflection point. ST had done really nothing to deserve consideration to be punted, darn good head. But we all could use a bit more strait when we go after it. I will do another LM session outdoors today, get at least 9 holes in. 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by bvanlieu

[tipperi]

I owned both, ultimately went back to TSi2 as thats the head i score the best with.

We alternated Rogue/Epic for so long that IMO, these two releases are backwards for me.  Paradym with the sliding weight should be the "Epic" model year, and obviously Rogue ST the Rogue year, but i found them to be flipped.  The Paradym plays with more launch loft for loft and was more forgiving for me, while the ST Max LS could give me the "unicorn" ball similar to the OG epic line, with the sacrifice being the bad ones were pretty bad.

I think if you've always been a Rogue player(like me) then Paradym is the way to go, if you've leaned closer to the Epic heads, the LS is a better fit.

[bvanlieu]

thanks @tipperi. I try to avoid the unicorn shots when looking at data on the LM, but want a decent sampling with dispersion. the RST LS is so solid near middle...but miss the face a bit more and I see spin jumping a lot (as it should I suppose, bad swing :D)

 

I gamed OG Rogue (nice club, forgiving, tad spinny) Mavrik (loved most of it, but the tow misses could be brutal for me).

 

The RST line was a toss up between regular and LS, went LS more on shape and knowing it wasn't really a SZ style model (I did game the Rogue SZ weight back for a season as well) 

 

Going to try a P 10.5 head lofted down to 9.5 today see if it sits more similar to the RST LS, I don't want anything that looks shut at address...I am resisting all temptation to get numbers on the Paradym TD 🙂 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by bvanlieu

[tipperi]

12 minutes ago, bvanlieu said:

thanks @tipperi. I try to avoid the unicorn shots when looking at data on the LM, but want a decent sampling with dispersion. the RST LS is so solid near middle...but miss the face a bit more and I see spin jumping a lot (as it should I suppose, bad swing :D)

 

I gamed OG Rogue (nice club, forgiving, tad spinny) Mavrik (loved most of it, but the tow misses could be brutal for me).

 

The RST line was a toss up between regular and LS, went LS more on shape and knowing it wasn't really a SZ style model (I did game the Rogue SZ weight back for a season as well) 

 

Going to try a P 10.5 head lofted down to 9.5 today see if it sits more similar to the RST LS, I don't want anything that looks shut at address...I am resisting all temptation to get numbers on the Paradym TD 🙂 

 

 

I hit TD at a demo day with a Ventus Red TR 6X and was surprised at how forgiving it was.  I prefer the flatter/shallow drivers over deep faced/rounded but could easily game the TD.

I agree on setup, the Max LS and I didnt get along but at address its one of the best looking heads i've ever sat behind a ball.  So much so that the one I owned came from picking one up and setting it down at DSG, never buy drivers like that but the matte crown and the flat and open look at address was amazing.  

[dabohammer]

Any feedback on how the reg. Paradym stacks up to the Epic Max LS and the Rogue ST Max? I gamed the Epic LS for quite a while and could absolutely bomb it, but some mishits would be punishing. The RST Max has helped consistency but it's a little bit of a left machine. 

[bvanlieu]

RST line is very good. very very good. The Max LS is a good match for me spin wise in general, but the paradym in my week of testing shows a bit better forgiveness. Little here, little there. I do like how its pretty neutral, the Max LS is a smidge open but nothing like a TD model in how those sit.

 

Looking at just the speed numbers, for me they are so close. On course, I felt I could go after the Paradym a bit more and not suffer as much. 5 yards left/right on a bad strike kind of stuff. Less spin up bad blocks (still blocks, just less block-y if you will)

 

Having a few older clubs collecting dust with the 2X trade in motivated me to give them a test and well, I likely will pull the trigger before midnight 🙂

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by bvanlieu

[dmeeksDC]

Very similar performance. I still have the Rogue ST LS and I had a standard Paradym. The Paradym offers incremental improvement in ball speed retention on mishits and I found it a little easier to hit straight. Misses are improved a notch with the Paradym. I did see slightly higher spin with the Paradym, not a big difference and strike is likely the biggest factor there. It’s a very nice driver, looks and sound are fine with me. It’s not loud. 
 

I think both heads are great but to try to beat the Rogue ST LS I have sold the standard Paradym and am awaiting delivery of a Triple Diamond. 

[Rbsiedsc]

Has anyone compared the std paradym to the epic max ls? Miss is toe side and the max ls can really hook on me. 

[roxald]

On 3/26/2023 at 10:04 AM, Radeon962 said:

Trackman Range only for me and I am sticking with the Rogue Max LS.  Hit about 20 Callaway range balls each head, including a few old ProV1x’s from my winter bag. My final swings with potential clubs are always hitting some gamed balls to really see how a driver feels, sounds and flies.  
 

Standard Paradym vs Rogue ST Max LS.  Both 10.5*. Gamer shaft is a Fuji Ventus VeloCore TR Blue 5s and also tried a Kai’li White 60s.

 

Looks - Paradym.  Really a beautiful head.

 

Feel - Max LS.  Surprised by this but Max LS feels more solid.  Paradym felt a bit hollow and light.  Same swingweight at D3 at 44.75” playing length.  

 

Sound - Max LS.  More of a dull thud.  Paradym was more metallic/crack sound.

 

Distance - LS Max.  Avg 262 carry.  Paradym avg. 259 carry.  I would imagine on the course that distance would be a tossup over the course of a season of play. 

 

Ballspeed - both right around 155

 

Launch - around 15* for both

 

Dispersion - Paradym by a very slight margin. 

 

No spin #’s or club head speed with the Trackman range but seemed to be close between the two.

 

Paradym seems to retain a bit more ball speed on off-center hits but sound and feel  also changes more on off-center hits.  
 

Played the Max LS for most of last season and I am comfortable with it and I did not see enough improvement with the Paradym to keep it.  Max LS is forgiving enough, feels and sounds excellent and distance is a toss up.  
 

If you were fit into your current driver, I would not expect significant improvements unless you had a poor fitting previously.  We are past the point of huge gains year-to-year if you are playing a driver that was properly fit.  

IMO…. It comes down to looks, feel, sound and perhaps marginal dispersion improvements.  Distance will be a tossup.  
 

Or it may be if you just like shiny, new things then give it a go.  I am a buy and try type as other peoples opinions can get you in the ballpark but only you and your swing can really tell what works and what does not.

 

Good luck!
 

You pretty much nailed my thoughts!

Tried the standard Paradym and did not like It.

 

Continued with the Rogue Max Ls for another year in '23 and had a great year off the Tee.

 

I really like the flatter face and straighter topline of the Rogue-reminds me if the Old Ping G20.

 

Only thing that would tempt me to test is a new Callaway Max Ls model.

 

Rox