Learning To Hit A Draw Essentially Ruins Your Swing?

[Denny100]

I wanted to post this as i dont really understand the logic why coaches will want to teach amateurs a draw, OTHER THAN the fact amateurs tend to slice.

 

But thats SLICING, a SLICE isnt just a "big fade".

 

If you for example make a ploy to play a draw off the tee, you would have to shift the swing path significantly to the right (to account for the upward angle of attack of the driver), and then when it comes to the irons, the swing path would end up being massively inside out and lead to a very unstable ball flight.

 

In this example, the amateur then has to aim their clubface more and more AWAY from the target to accompany the drastically inside out swing path.

 

It makes very lttle sense to me. Its just asking for trouble and terrible shot patterns left AND right.

 

Anyone else think this?

[Righty to Lefty]

The difference between a draw, fade, and a straight flying shot are very small, especially from a math of impact perspective, and none of them require a significant shift in path.  I completely understand having a preferred ball flight, but I also believe that all golfers should be aware of how to execute all three ball flights as those skills are very necessary from shot to shot in a given round of golf.  If you are hitting hooks then yes, you should absolutely be trying to get into a fade orientation in relation to the ball to soften the hook and vice versa. These skills are mandatory in my opinion and they are dead simple easy once you understand the math of impact.  

 

This is a model representation of a straight flying shot being hit off the ground:

 

And this is a model representation of a straight flying shot being hit off of a tee: 

 

In either instance if you simply hold the face in place and then move your plane / shoulder line to the left a few degrees, you will create a fade, and if you moved it to the right a few degrees you would create a draw because you have created a difference between face and path required to tilt the spin axis the ball is rotating on.  These adjustments should not be drastic because it doesn't take much to  tilt the spin axis but most don't take the time to learn the fundamentals of impact and it greatly stunts their improvement.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by Righty to Lefty
Corrected Information

[caniac6]

Don’t you have to do just the opposite of what you said to hit a fade? Pretty tough to hit consistently straight shots.

[Ferguson]

Hitting it one way or another is not the opposite of the other.  It's also not the over manipulation of any one thing. 

[Righty to Lefty]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:56 AM, caniac6 said:

Don’t you have to do just the opposite of what you said to hit a fade? Pretty tough to hit consistently straight shots.

You are correct, too early in the morning and I didn't proof read the post well enough!  Hitting the ball straight is no more difficult than hitting a draw or a fade if you understand impact.  I can put up a video of me talkin my Son into hitting a straight shot within 2 shots because if you get into the right location to the ball a straight, draw, or fade ball flight will happen naturally. You can barely tell the setup difference between the  first shot that faded and the second one that flew straight.

On 4/13/2023 at 7:03 AM, Ferguson said:

Hitting it one way or another is not the opposite of the other.  It's also not the over manipulation of any one thing. 

Hitting an equivalent draw and fade are exactly opposite of one another.  I am not exactly sure what you mean by your second statement but the only variable to creating shot shape is your plane shoulder line as the face must point at your given start line and the low point of your swing arc must be in a certain location in relation to the ball or your strike will be compromised.  The only variable is how much of a difference between face and path you create and though you may feel like you draw or fade the ball more easily the math to create an equivalent draw and fade are the same. 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Righty to Lefty

[caniac6]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

Hitting it one way or another is not the opposite of the other.  It's also not the over manipulation of any one thing. 

What I meant was that if you aim right to hit a draw, you have to aim left to hit a fade. Both shots require aiming away from the target. 

[Ferguson]

33 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

What I meant was that if you aim right to hit a draw, you have to aim left to hit a fade. Both shots require aiming away from the target. 

 

I guess I never considered it aiming away.  Like the apex of a breaking putt, the apex is the target, not the hole.  Most AMs have a general idea of how much fade or draw but fail to be consistent.   I am lucky - at a young age, I learned to move the ball both ways. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

I would agree that a significantly inside to out club path isn't ideal but you don't need that to hit a draw. It's more about learning the proper delivery from which it is easier to make adjustments to hit different ball flights if desired. 

[Socrates]

The big issue is - is there a flaw in the swing?  If there is a flaw in the swing, it is usually better to fix the flaw.  What happens when you have corrected the flaw (or the best that can be done) should be the natural flight.  Whether it be straight, draw or fade.  You shouldn't mess with whatever that is.  Learn to hit it as good as you can with whatever swing you have.

 

Now learning how to hit a draw or a fade and only using it when there is an advantage to using it, is another thing.  I predominately hit a straight ball.  I also know how to create a fade or a draw.  95% of my shots are to hit it straight.

 

I know too many who have decided to get "better" and decided to hit a fade or draw when it's not their natural shot.  Many of them end up frustrated and losing their game and take up some other sport.

[ChipNRun]

 

Emphasizing draws or fades involves trade-offs. In general, draws spin less and tend to run out more, and fades have more spin and tend to land softer. This Draw vs. Fade link discusses other pros and cons.

 

3 hours ago, Denny100 said:

If you for example make a ploy to play a draw off the tee, you would have to shift the swing path significantly to the right (to account for the upward angle of attack of the driver), and then when it comes to the irons, the swing path would end up being massively inside out and lead to a very unstable ball flight.

 

First of all, I'm not sure why you use these rather imprecise adverbs in describing alignment. Aiming toes a few degrees to left (open)  for fade or a few to right (closed) for draw will get it done.

 

To left is a diagram of how Nicklaus lined up to hit a fade, his stock shot in early part of career. (He later used a draw in times when his hip was injured.)

 

In Nicklaus-style fade, align toes to left of target, clubface square to target, and work ball back to right.

 

For a Nicklaus draw you would do the opposite.

 

Modern takes on ball movement suggest for draw, aim to right and have clubface open slightly less to right, and get a curve that way. This gets into a lot of hair splitting and attempts at fine tuning for benefits I find are less than the risk.

 

And, moving ball position up or back can help in fine-tuning control of draw or fade. But, the Nicklaus scheme is basic set-up for stance-controlled shot shaping.

 

In the 1950s, some instructors such as Masters champ Doug Ford recommended grip-controlled shot shaping. For a draw, aim to right and take a strong grip with lower hand so hands rotate back to left. For a fade, aim left and take a weak grip so hands rotate back to right. This fell out of favor because it's hard to maintain consistency.

 

1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

What I meant was that if you aim right to hit a draw, you have to aim left to hit a fade. Both shots require aiming away from the target. 

 

Nicklaus method has you align toes to right for draw or left for fade, but have the clubface square to target line (red arrow). 

[Righty to Lefty]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:51 AM, caniac6 said:

What I meant was that if you aim right to hit a draw, you have to aim left to hit a fade. Both shots require aiming away from the target. 

Well sure you have to aim away from the target if you intend to hit a draw or fade to make the shot finish on the target line unless you intend to hit the shot straight.  Hitting the ball straight is not as difficult as many make it seem thus the stigma that hitting the ball straight is "hard" when it is no more difficult than hitting your start line on a draw or a fade, though I will agree that you can increase your margin of error because you can aim further left or right of the middle of the fairway, rather than splitting the difference trying to hit the shot straight. I often aim to the extreme side of a fairway with the notion that I am going to hit a straight shot, and the ball can go no further left or right of my given aim point depending on where trouble is, so I am using that same margin of error to my advantage while playing a straight ball factoring in a club face and path will move away from the trouble if I don't execute the straight shot instead. So instead of saying I'm going to "draw or fade a ball off a bunker," I aim at the edge of it and try to his a straight ball at that edge and if I don't get it quite right the ball will draw or fade away from the bunker. 

 

I found the best way to go about things is to start with hitting straight shots to a certain target with all clubs, and then move onward to playing draws and fades making them start at the same target and curve away from it so that you can gauge how much you have to move your plane to create a certain amount of curvature. Once you gain the desired amount of curvature you can then move your start line that amount right or left of the target line and try to make the shots finish on your target line but that is my process that I found worked best when I switched over from playing righty to lefty.  If your baseline is a straight ball then you are much closer to either a draw or a fade and the adjustments are much smaller, thus easier, than going from predominantly a fader or drawer to the polar opposite shot shape.  

 

Anyone believing that they have a "natural shot shape" is a false statement in my opinion because it shows a misunderstanding of impact.  My Son is a rank beginner and he never hits a slice. His ball flies dead straight unless he gets out of position to the ball and if he sees any type of curvature to his shot he immediately corrects it on the next shot.  His main flaw is not realizing that after he has hit 500 balls that he has to adjust his orientation to low point, so as he fatigues, he will start topping balls but he now knows that there is nothing wrong with his swing, it's that as he fatigues he has to move his low point progressively further in front of the ball to maintain leverage as we all must do when shot does not fly as expected or we begin to fatigue.  

 

On 4/13/2023 at 10:46 AM, ChipNRun said:

 

 

To left is a diagram of how Nicklaus lined up to hit a fade, his stock shot in early part of career. (He later used a draw in times when his hip was injured.)

 

In Nicklaus-style fade, align toes to left of target, clubface square to target, and work ball back to right.

 

For a Nicklaus draw you would do the opposite.

 

Modern takes on ball movement suggest for draw, aim to right and have clubface open slightly less to right, and get a curve that way. This gets into a lot of hair splitting and attempts at fine tuning for benefits I find are less than the risk.

 

And, moving ball position up or back can help in fine-tuning control of draw or fade. But, the Nicklaus scheme is basic set-up for stance-controlled shot shaping.

 

In the 1950s, some instructors such as Masters champ Doug Ford recommended grip-controlled shot shaping. For a draw, aim to right and take a strong grip with lower hand so hands rotate back to left. For a fade, aim left and take a weak grip so hands rotate back to right. This fell out of favor because it's hard to maintain consistency.

 

 

Nicklaus method has you align toes to right for draw or left for fade, but have the clubface square to target line (red arrow). 

Well Jack is wrong in this diagram and also so many details are left out that are very important.  First off if you hit a shot like this diagram shows you will NEVER hit the target line and the ball will ALWAYS miss to the right of the target because the ball will start along the target line and move away from it. You must aim away from the target line to make a ball finish on it if you are playing shot shape. Also the club does not follow the line of the feet in any case, it follows the line of the shoulders as the club is being held in the hands and the shoulder plane is the line that should be monitored. The old drop your back foot advice with driver is only useful if the shoulder line changes as you drop the foot back.  That is also a diagram for a ball being hit off the ground with a negative angle of attack as a ball being hit up on with a positive angle of attack would have the shoulder plane/ line right of the target line for both draws and fades.  Jack was describing what he was "feeling" and was doing the best he could with the information he had at the time, but it was incorrect. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Righty to Lefty

[ChipNRun]

25 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Also the club does not follow the line of the feet in any case, it follows the line of the shoulders as the club is being held in the hands and the shoulder plane is the line that should be monitored.

 

RtoL's statement seems to summarize the conventional wisdom of golf instructors in the pre-2000 era. Research published by Trackman(c) in its January 2009 newsletter showed different. Data analysis indicated that for horizontal launch angle (fade-straight-draw continuum) roughly 15% was determined by club path and 85% by clubface angle.

 

Although Nicklaus was describing feel rather than results of data analysis, his diagram is compatible with the Trackman report some 35 years later. The link to the Trackman report, however, has been deactivated. However, you can scare up some post-2000 discussions by googling Ball Flight Laws. 

[Krt22]

OP yes you are correct for the most part, especially when trying to force a draw with the driver.
 

There are two ways to create a draw and most amateurs play would I would consider an “improper” draw by manufacturing the inside out path/shallowing the shaft with their body via excessive tilt from the target. This comes from the swing to right field, hit the inside of the ball type school of thought. When over done this creates low point issues, strike issues, improper pressure shift, overly right swing direction/path, shanks, tops, etc. Literal swing killer

[Chunkitgood]

The degree of effort spent in straightening out basically flawed swings, in which the ball is not struck first, is remarkable, tragic, and useless.

 

Learn to hit the ball first.

[betarhoalphadelta]

Is there some big issue with instructors trying to force novices / bad players into a draw pattern? 

 

I figure most instructors are dealing with golfers who are severely OTT and with majorly flawed swings. They happen to slice because of that. Fixing the slice doesn't necessarily entail the student hitting a draw. 

[Blaiser]

I find that teaching a "draw" swing to beginners helps them get into better positions and improves their overall move at the ball.

 

Most beginners don't use their lower body correctly in the swing, and it essentially forces them to have a steep out/in swing that produces a weak spinny fade at best.

 

So while I'll tell them hitting a fade is actually the preferred shot by most high level/great players, the feeling of hitting a correct draw will more quickly improve their overall swing and get them to actually compress the ball. They can then go back to fading all they want if they prefer it.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Blaiser

[darunia484]

On 4/13/2023 at 1:39 PM, Blaiser said:

I find that teaching a "draw" swing to beginners helps them get into better positions and improves their overall move at the ball.

 

Most beginners don't use their lower body correctly in the swing, and it essentially forces them to have a steep out/in swing that produces a weak spinny fade at best.

 

So while I'll tell them hitting a fade is actually the preferred shot by most high level/great players, the feeling of hitting a correct draw will more quickly improve their overall swing and get them to actually compress the ball. They can then go back to fading all they want if they prefer it.

 

my coach is teaching me to hit a push draw even though I didn't really have a preference on shot shape

 

 

[moptop]

Coaches are just trying to fight fire with fire.  By trying to have you hit a draw they are neutralizing your slice.  There is a great chance you will never play a draw on the course, but you will maybe have a fade instead of a slice.  

[Three_Jack]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:27 AM, Ferguson said:

 

I guess I never considered it aiming away.  Like the apex of a breaking putt, the apex is the target, not the hole.  Most AMs have a general idea of how much fade or draw but fail to be consistent.   I am lucky - at a young age, I learned to move the ball both ways. 

 

Well... technically, if you aim at the APEX you would miss low every time.. You gotta aim outside of the apex lol

[Ferguson]

29 minutes ago, Three_Jack said:

 

Well... technically, if you aim at the APEX you would miss low every time.. You gotta aim outside of the apex lol

 

I never said "aim at the apex", I referenced the apex as the target.   

 

Now go get your shine box. 

 

[GungHoGolf]

34 minutes ago, Three_Jack said:

 

Well... technically, if you aim at the APEX you would miss low every time.. You gotta aim outside of the apex lol

More technically, the ball is sitting on the apex of the curve at address on every single-breaking putt. It starts falling to the low side immediately after contact. 

[Three_Jack]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

I never said "aim at the apex", I referenced the apex as the target.   

 

Now go get your shine box. 

 

 

You said the apex is the "target".... wtf does that mean then lol.

[SNIPERBBB]

If you have to go to extremes to hit a shot constantly, yes you will wreck your swing.  You shouldn't have to go to extremes to hit a fade or draw it unless you were already extreme to hit your current stock shot. 

[Pepperturbo]

Not sure where the OP heard that.  It's NOT what I have encountered at multiple clubs.  At the clubs I frequent, Golf instructors either follow a student's tendency or they may teach a fade; otherwise they teach fundamentals with idea being to hit the ball relatively straight.  But there's this: Most people hit slices or fades as those flight paths come naturally to the majority.  It's also the other way around, those that hit natural draws tend to want a natural fade, as they can talk to it.

 

I hit the ball straight, but move the ball right or left if the shot requires.  Once someone knows how to consistently hit the ball, adjusting setup to accommodate a certain flight-path should NOT be mentally debilitating or destructive.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[MountainKing]

If you're hitting a slice, the goal should be to fix the swing mechanics that cause the slice.  Generally better mechanics naturally create a draw flight, so maybe where that thought comes from?

 

If you want to hit a fade or a draw, if you're swing mechanics are decent enough, it's just a matter of ball position.

[naval2006]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:29 AM, Denny100 said:

I wanted to post this as i dont really understand the logic why coaches will want to teach amateurs a draw, OTHER THAN the fact amateurs tend to slice.

 

I think you expect that a coach teaches how to curve the ball and the reason why the ball goes right or left this or that way.  There are a lot of kids and some beginners with enough potential to learn and control the ball. 

[PracticeSwinger]

Considering the fact that most amateurs early stages are :

• Why can't I hit that little f***er?
• Ah, there you go, well that was not very far.
• That was a bit further but why is it curving right like that.
• Let me smack the sh*t out of that stupid ball sitting there. Damn, that's right of the planet

That results from a spinny, OTT, compensatory EE to not come in steep as a Jeep : path going left and face wide open at impact. One would think teaching a 'draw' move is more then welcomed. Now, if you become aware of the pattern and turn it into a possible snap hook, that's on you

[joekloo]

Searching Youtube and based on my experience with 4 instructors over the past 10 years, most of them talk about the "baby draw" as the pinnacle of perfect golf shots.  Over the past 10 years (55 now) I my knowledge of the golf swing has improved significantly and with my current coach, whom I have been with for 3 years now, I said that I wanted to hit a fade as that is what my minds eye see's after so many years of fading/slicing.  But get to the point where it was a little more fade and less slice.  That has drastically changed the narrative of the lessons.  For many years I had 2-3 pull hooks in the bag as I was trying to do something that my body would not cooperate with so my hands just took over.  Now I no longer have any "pressure" to move the ball R to L and lessons are going much better.

 

I agree with your post.  Skilled players who want to go single digit should really learn to work ball in both directions and understand swing intricacies.  Average Joes just wanting to shoot in 80/90's and not loose 6 balls a round need to understand their body and minimize extremes.  

[ShortGolfer]

I exhibit roses, which means I work on roses every day it isn't raining and practice my swing in my back yard until after the June rose shows. 

Last week I did a presentation at the local rose club to encourage more members to bring roses to our show this weekend.

Which means 2 months of swing practice after winter.

Third season of doing this.  This year I worked on working the ball.  I watch the filght path as well as how the ball moves after it hits the ground.

I also worked on ball first contact.  Real balls work better for this as I can hear the click before the club hits ground if I swing slow.

 

Every year my practice drills get harder.

Edited June 10, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[Foxx]

Deleted.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Foxx