Worried that using line on ball when putting takes too much time

[MountainKing]

Not sure how it takes 60 seconds, once you find your line and a target to hit to (which hopefully you're doing while others are putting, assuming you're not away) it shouldn't be more than a couple seconds to get it lined up.   With that, if you feel you need that time on the greens then you better be rapid fire tee to green to make up for it.

[MountainKing]

15 hours ago, sui generis said:

Don't be fooled by the actions of the TV professional men and women. They are just pretending to use the line, you know, just going through the motions, because they are all paid secret millions by the Sharpie Company. 😉

 

The touring pros practice their methods 40+ hours a week.  They have it down to a usable science, most of us don't have the time needed to perfect it, or a lot of other things they do.  It's a learned skill they use to make money, much like most of us do day in and day out at our jobs.

[larrybud]

3 hours ago, st1800e said:

I dont worry and dont use it, doesn't help, its distracting, the target is the hole, not the ball.   

When the putt is breaking 2 feet, how is the hole the "target"? You're not aligning to the hole, line on the ball or not.

[nsxguy]

22 minutes ago, larrybud said:

When the putt is breaking 2 feet, how is the hole the "target"? You're not aligning to the hole, line on the ball or not.

 

Mr B ? Is that you ?

[dmecca2]

As a competitive golfer who uses a line, I've found 2 things helpful to ensure I still play fast.

1. When lining up the ball initially, I will use my shaft of the putter as a straight edge to see where the line is pointing while crouched over the ball. This helps line it up close enough while crouched.

2. Don't readjust the ball. If I know that I want to putt a ball straight, and the line is aimed at the left edge, then that is good enough to get me lined up correctly. I simply aim the putter a hair right of the line and trust that I'm aimed at the center of the hole.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

Not sure how it takes 60 seconds, once you find your line and a target to hit to (which hopefully you're doing while others are putting, assuming you're not away) it shouldn't be more than a couple seconds to get it lined up.  

 

Having refereed quite a few competitions I have a very different experience on that. But I do agree with you that it SHOULD not take more than a couple of seconds but unfortunately it most often takes much more than that.

 

It still puzzles me how this practice can help a person to sink more putts. I can figure out the mental part but the mechanical part beats me. As I wrote before an error of one degree in a 5-yard putt means a missed putt every time and nobody, and I mean NOBODY can line a ball with sufficient accuracy but just by chance every 50th or so times.

[Dpavs]

There is an interesting question in all this.

 

Do you all think that more puts are missed by amateurs because of poor alignment with the target line or making a poor stroke, either speed or failing to square the face at impact?

 

My guess is the later or in just not reading the green correctly to begin with but then nothing helps at that point.

[ThinkingPlus]

I think we need to look into our alignment likelihood estimate a bit more closely. A 1 degree error at 15 feet is ~3 inches. Aligning to within 1 degree sounds hard, but is it really?

 

Let's assume we have a straight putt so we are attempting to align our line to the center of the cup. Now how many folks would align the line more than 2 cups outside the left edge or right edge of the cup at 15'? That would obviously be a huge error that almost no one with decent eyesight would arrive at. Now that we have narrowed the set of reasonable alignments down to +/- 2 cups outside the actual cup, let's do some math.

 

Our solution set spans 5 cups or ~21". We need 1 degree to make our putt (more or less) which is ~3".  While it would be reasonable to use a normal distribution for our probability calculation, I will be conservative and use a uniform distribution giving equal likelihood to each alignment solution. Thus, our probability, under these assumptions would be 1/7 or 14% which is a bit better than 1 in 50. More realistic probability distributions using more of the visual cues available would result in a bit better result.

[MountainKing]

1 hour ago, Dpavs said:

There is an interesting question in all this.

 

Do you all think that more puts are missed by amateurs because of poor alignment with the target line or making a poor stroke, either speed or failing to square the face at impact?

 

My guess is the later or in just not reading the green correctly to begin with but then nothing helps at that point.

 

All of the above.

[Newby]

44 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I think we need to look into our alignment likelihood estimate a bit more closely. A 1 degree error at 15 feet is ~3 inches. Aligning to within 1 degree sounds hard, but is it really?

 

Let's assume we have a straight putt so we are attempting to align our line to the center of the cup. Now how many folks would align the line more than 2 cups outside the left edge or right edge of the cup at 15'? That would obviously be a huge error that almost no one with decent eyesight would arrive at. Now that we have narrowed the set of reasonable alignments down to +/- 2 cups outside the actual cup, let's do some math.

 

Our solution set spans 5 cups or ~21". We need 1 degree to make our putt (more or less) which is ~3".  While it would be reasonable to use a normal distribution for our probability calculation, I will be conservative and use a uniform distribution giving equal likelihood to each alignment solution. Thus, our probability, under these assumptions would be 1/7 or 14% which is a bit better than 1 in 50. More realistic probability distributions using more of the visual cues available would result in a bit better result.

Using my old  school protractor 1 degree is about 1mm. I tried to line up the 0/180 line (12cm) with various different objects about 4 or 5m away. I was between 0 & 3 degrees out in 10 attempts.

[MountainKing]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Having refereed quite a few competitions I have a very different experience on that. But I do agree with you that it SHOULD not take more than a couple of seconds but unfortunately it most often takes much more than that.

 

It still puzzles me how this practice can help a person to sink more putts. I can figure out the mental part but the mechanical part beats me. As I wrote before an error of one degree in a 5-yard putt means a missed putt every time and nobody, and I mean NOBODY can line a ball with sufficient accuracy but just by chance every 50th or so times.

 

Like anything, it only helps if you're able to really practice it.  If you're not constantly practicing alignment, it's just a guessing game.  Most people who claim it helps them, I'd be willing to bet if you had them play 5 rounds doing it, and then 5 rounds without the results would be identical.

[ThinkingPlus]

12 minutes ago, Newby said:

Using my old  school protractor 1 degree is about 1mm. I tried to line up the 0/180 line (12cm) with various different objects about 4 or 5m away. I was between 0 & 3 degrees out in 10 attempts.

I am not understanding.  You were between 0 and 3 degrees misaligned how many times in 10 attempts? How did you determine truth?

[DaveLeeNC]

11 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

Like anything, it only helps if you're able to really practice it.  If you're not constantly practicing alignment, it's just a guessing game.  Most people who claim it helps them, I'd be willing to bet if you had them play 5 rounds doing it, and then 5 rounds without the results would be identical.

 

IMHO, this is not a one size fits all solution. I see the line from my putting setup as well left of the hole. On a 10 foot putt if I alignm the line accurately (center of the cup using a straight edge) and then address the putt,  take the ball away, and assess from there where my putter is aimed, the answer will be about 4 inches left of the left edge of the cup. And I used to wonder why I could not consistently make 3-4 foot putts (I don't wonder any more). BUT ...

 

1) If I don't strictly 'putt to the line' (requiring me to learn to ignore this visual feedback) I actually putt worse. 

 

2) If you see the line reasonably accurately I would guess that adding the line to the equation would make your putting worse. 

 

So it depends on the golfer, but I don't see how someone who sees the line like I do could possibly putt well without some kind of aid (where intermediate point is a solid alternative). I have tried to find a head position that mitigates this visual problem without success. 

 

And it is quite likely that if you did a big test with a bunch of golfers, you might well show zero improvement (depending on how you aggregate outcomes), when the truth is that it helps one group significantly while hurting the other group. 

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It still puzzles me how this practice can help a person to sink more putts. I can figure out the mental part but the mechanical part beats me. As I wrote before an error of one degree in a 5-yard putt means a missed putt every time and nobody, and I mean NOBODY can line a ball with sufficient accuracy but just by chance every 50th or so times.

 

This is not particularly complicated. There are several mostly uncorrelated errors that generate some kind of error in the outcome (that is by how much did you miss the putt). There is error in how you establish your intended line for the putt (call this A), there is the error in how much your stroke caused you to miss your intended line (call this B), and then there is the read (combination of slope and speed) and we'll call this error C. Note that quantities A, B, and C are aggregate variations across a big sample set, and not the outcome of a single putt. And ideally you would define errors A, B, and C as the distance from the absolute center of the cup and they will be signed numbers (+ for off to the left, and - for off to the right, for example). 

 

The total error (aggregate across a big sample set) is the sum of A+B+C, although depending on exactly how you define these error quantities it may not be simple 2nd grade addition. Regardless if you make any of these errors smaller, then the total error will be smaller. So if the 95th percentile of your total error is 7 inches (where the effective size of the hole is more like 3 inches and an absolute error of 1.6 inches is a missed putt), then I can see why you might say a made putt is luck. But if you can reduce your total error (parameter A for example) and your total error becomes 6 inches, then you will be lucky more often. 

 

dave

 

ps. I believe that the line helps me. I do NOT believe that it will help everyone or even most golfers. But in my case it helps reduce parameter A and, interestingly, FORCES me to reduce parameter B. 

 

pps. Those two paragraphs seem terribly long for something "not particularly complicated". Sorry about that. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[klebs01]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Having refereed quite a few competitions I have a very different experience on that. But I do agree with you that it SHOULD not take more than a couple of seconds but unfortunately it most often takes much more than that.

 

It still puzzles me how this practice can help a person to sink more putts. I can figure out the mental part but the mechanical part beats me. As I wrote before an error of one degree in a 5-yard putt means a missed putt every time and nobody, and I mean NOBODY can line a ball with sufficient accuracy but just by chance every 50th or so times.

do you really think people line up more accurately with a line on the putter looking at it from the side or with no line on anything at all? Those are really the only valid comparisons. Do you think from a pure starting line perspective a person has less than a degree of error? The line is better than those other methods, but people need to think of it as a guide, not something that needs to be perfect. 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Let's assume we have a straight putt so we are attempting to align our line to the center of the cup. Now how many folks would align the line more than 2 cups outside the left edge or right edge of the cup at 15'?

 

Oh I think you'd be surprised at how badly people align a very short line on the ground below them on a curved surface to a spot 15' away.

[DaveLeeNC]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Oh I think you'd be surprised at how badly people align a very short line on the ground below them on a curved surface to a spot 15' away.

For those that have that problem there is an easy fix. Just use your putter shaft aimed directly down the line on the ball. If you are a 'bad line aimer' you will find that out pretty quickly. I do it out of habit. 

 

dave

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

For those that have that problem there is an easy fix. Just use your putter shaft aimed directly down the line on the ball. If you are a 'bad line aimer' you will find that out pretty quickly. I do it out of habit.

 

I think you'd be surprised at how badly you're still aiming a short line on a curved surface. And what you're saying takes even more time.

[Rosco1216]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I think you'd be surprised at how badly you're still aiming a short line on a curved surface. And what you're saying takes even more time.

But aiming only using the top line to an invisible high point of the arc of said curve is more consistent and accurate… 

[Rosco1216]

Isn’t the percentage of tour pros who align their ball 80% plus? They must not have the resources or data to justify it and would probably putt much better if they didn’t. Someone should ask Eldrick if he realizes he could have hit his line much more consistently without lining it up. 

[DaveLeeNC]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I think you'd be surprised at how badly you're still aiming a short line on a curved surface. And what you're saying takes even more time.

 

Not in my case where I have tested it multiple times with consistent results. But that is me - I cannot speak for others. And it takes some care in the learning process. 

 

dave

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Oh I think you'd be surprised at how badly people align a very short line on the ground below them on a curved surface to a spot 15' away.

You are correct. Grab any old schmo on the putting green and they are more likely to hit themselves in the ankle than line up correctly on a 15 footer. However, that is true whether using a line or not. We were discussing theoretical limits for folks well practiced and dedicated to aligning using a line on the ball.

[Schulzmc]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

It still puzzles me how this practice can help a person to sink more putts. I can figure out the mental part but the mechanical part beats me. As I wrote before an error of one degree in a 5-yard putt means a missed putt every time and nobody, and I mean NOBODY can line a ball with sufficient accuracy but just by chance every 50th or so times.

You are assuming the line is to help me make more putts. It isn’t. It is to help me get closer to the hole. I’ve found that from 20 ft. or so away my alignment without using a line might be as much as 2 feet off. Even if my line is off by a couple degrees if I putt it on that line it gets me much closer. Oh, and if I am closer that means I do actually find the bottom of the hole more often.

 

BTW - I do not use the line inside 10 ft. as I can usually get aligned pretty well on shorter putts without it.

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

You are correct. Grab any old schmo on the putting green and they are more likely to hit themselves in the ankle than line up correctly on a 15 footer. However, that is true whether using a line or not. We were discussing theoretical limits for folks well practiced and dedicated to aligning using a line on the ball.

I’ve tested “well practiced” folks too.

[byoshio82]

On 7/17/2023 at 5:10 PM, MBAndrews21 said:

I have been experimenting with using a line on my ball when putting. I have found that it has helped my putting (so far). However, I am concerned that it takes too long for me to line the ball up correctly. Today I timed myself on the practice green, and it was taking about 60 seconds for me to hit each putt (includes reading the putt and lining it up). It always takes me a few attempts to get the ball perfectly lined up. I will try to do this when others are putting, but it is not always possible.

Does anyone have any advice on how to get the balled lined up correctly without taking so long? Is 60 seconds to hit a putt acceptable?

Personally I don’t like seeing anything but a blank spot on the ball when I putt. It helps me focus on line and break without fixating on the line on the ball and lining it up perfect. I

like to visualize if the hole was a clock and where the ball will enter the hole and imagine the line it would need to take to enter at that point. 

[rogolf]

This thread was started to discuss the time it took a player to use the line on his ball; it was not meant to discuss the merits of using/not using the line on the ball.  The usual digression......perhaps a new thread should start?

Edited July 20, 2023 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, klebs01 said:

do you really think people line up more accurately with a line on the putter looking at it from the side or with no line on anything at all? Those are really the only valid comparisons. 

 

As I have described earlier there is a faster and better way and that is to take an aiming point some distance from the ball towards the hole. Trying to line up a really short curved line is very inaccurate. And in the end it is the movement of the putter that determines which direction the ball will start to move.

 

Despite of Dave's excellent description of sum of variables I still say that it is virtually impossible to line up a ball with sufficient accuracy.  Btw, if that method were superior why there is only a fraction of top players using it?

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

This thread was started to discuss the time it took a player to use the line on his ball; it was not meant to discuss the merits of using/not using the line on the ball.  The usual digression......perhaps a new thread should start?

 

It sure has side-tracked but if the OP would not use the line-up method they would not have the time issue, right..? 😉

[Newby]

10 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I am not understanding.  You were between 0 and 3 degrees misaligned how many times in 10 attempts? How did you determine truth?

More than 50% were off by more than 1 degree.

By using a fine cotton thread on a short pile carpet.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

More than 50% were off by more than 1 degree.

By using a fine cotton thread on a short pile carpet.

 

You sure have dedicated to this. Respect.

 

And you sure have proved my point as 1 degree error is enough to miss the hole.

 

Also I believe a 12 cm protractor is way easier to line up than a 2 cm curved line on a ball.

 

I do not mind people using this method but I have seen way too many players that are slow on the green because of it. For some it really takes a long time to align the line and when you combine this with other unnecessarily long routines you have yourself a player who confronts massive problems in competitions. Not to mention they create problems for the other members of their group as well. One really slow player means a slow group and that group will be timed.