Danny Maude and Pete Cowen, role of the right arm

[nlk10010]

22 hours ago, Nickc said:

 

+👍

Just to put this thread back on its initial track

 

Well, there now seems to be two parallel tracks, I will stick with the non-technical one.

 

I love the video, like Cowen, but as others of all persuasions have said, find the phrase "spinning the forearm down" to be confusing and open to various interpretations. For me, I think of it as shorthand for Pete saying: "Use the trail shoulder and side to spin the hips around and automatically bring the forearm down". The forearm/wrist/body relationship stays more or less rigid (or as rigid as you can reasonably be in a golf swing).

 

The above is the interpretation I used to try it on the course, got mixed results. Mostly tops (I ALWAYS top the ball) but a couple or three good shots. Lower trajectory, which used to bother me, but not as much any more since Peter Cowen says it's OK. 🙂  Given the state of my game I have nothing to lose by trying to stick with this idea  (I love Cowen's "find it/lose it" speech). 

[Nard_S]

11 minutes ago, nlk10010 said:

I love the video, like Cowen, but as others of all persuasions have said, find the phrase "spinning the forearm down" to be confusing and open to various interpretations. For me, I think of it as shorthand for Pete saying: "Use the trail shoulder and side to spin the hips around and automatically bring the forearm down". The forearm/wrist/body relationship stays more or less rigid (or as rigid as you can reasonably be in a golf swing).

I had a different take and it was load the forearm and then release it aka "spin it down". The loading part inherently rotates shoulder externally. The spin down unloads everything. This worked great for one session. not so much for the following but I remain optimistic that I can work this into swing. My experience with other changes suggest it takes 500-1000 reps to gain full benefit and better compliance.

[nlk10010]

2 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

I had a different take and it was load the forearm and then release it aka "spin it down". The loading part inherently rotates shoulder externally. The spin down unloads everything. This worked great for one session. not so much for the following but I remain optimistic that I can work this into swing. My experience with other changes suggest it takes 500-1000 reps to gain full benefit and better compliance.

 

I see, that really is not so far from my understanding (interpretation). I just focus on the shoulder and trail side doing the unloading which opens me up automatically by spinning the hips. It makes sense to use the view that you feel best about, I need something to help me get my weight forward and around. Cowen is REALLY right when he talks about some people getting it visually (or by copying what they see), some by feel. Whichever way works best.

 

Only other thing I will say is that this idea is really a swing philosophy, so virtually no one will be able to judge whether it works or not by trying it a few times in practice or on the course. It's closer to the way I feel comfortable swinging, plus I have nothing to lose, so I'll keep going at it until, well,.....who knows? 🙂 

[Nard_S]

13 minutes ago, nlk10010 said:

Only other thing I will say is that this idea is really a swing philosophy, so virtually no one will be able to judge whether it works or not by trying it a few times in practice or on the course.

Yeah agree.This is not a "several try" thing, it's change of address for your swing to go to and to move from. The big tell that it is worth for me, is how my release (post impact) feels. 

 

It took me a year, 18 months to ingrain a superior hip motion, I think this is easier, but it's not 6 weeks. I can be patient.

[Nickc]

I was more inclined it was "spinning" the trail forearm through impact.

To look back at what someone was saying about supination and pronation ..it seems to me it is "spinning" the trail forearm from supination to pronation ?

But really don't think of the swing in these technical terms.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Nickc
Added "trail"!

[Nard_S]

So I worked with this today and fault that kept me from doing this is using too much hips too soon. An intent of, drop hands in front of thighs while hips feeling more square,. allows this to work a lot better. Just an intent, whether that happens, goodness who knows,but the syncing of things needs that simple solidity. My 1st 40 balls I was everywhere and ugly, the next 40 was so much better. This Cowen thing amplifies faults but also amplifies good stuff too. 

[nlk10010]

No offense, but this reminds me of a phrase my partner uses: "The blind leading the semi-sighted". 🙂 

 

Through experimentation I have found (duh) that if you don't turn your hips in the backswing the trail shoulder move will send you way out to in, OK, I took care of that. At the risk of playing anecdotal golf, I also found that I need to remember the "turning the face down" part; it's possible that this is what Cowen means when he uses the phrase "spinning the forearm". As the trail shoulder comes around I need to force myself to continue to rotate through the ball so that the face closes and squares up to the target line.

 

Next time I'm out (and for some reason I'm feeling down right now, perhaps it's the start of the Fall term, so I have no motivation) I will see how far these thoughts take me.

Edited August 20, 2023 by nlk10010

[Dewdman42]

Focus of the lesson was about achieving compression on the ball and eliminate various manipulations during the downswing.

 

For me there is no doubt whatsoever that when Cowen was talking about "spinning it down" on this video, over and over again, he was referring to the trailing arm like a pinwheel, not like a screwdriver.   He demonstrated over and over again a trailing forearm that does not pronate at all prior to impact.   He said many verbal cues to clarify that and also demonstrated it at least 20 or 30 times using body rotation; and through functional tension keeping the trailing arm spinning like a pinwheel around the rotating body, which is what causes it to close it down.   He stated at least a dozen times NOT to manipulate the club during the downswing with forewarn rotation; as Danny was identified as having that tendency.

 

He mentions specifically, very early on, that the point is to keep the hands and trailing arm up with the rotation of the shoulders.  He talks about how it has to be setup in the backswing in order to avoid having to correct anything in the downswing.  You should not have to rotate the hands closed during the downswing.  He says this numerous times.   He talks from the outset about setting the trailing elbow at the top in the right position, and then spinning the trailing arm down (like a pinwheel)....  he keeps saying it over and over again because Danny wasn't getting it right away and danny has a strong tendency to use various manipulations during the downswing.

 

he also stated clearly this is not the only way to do it and how many guys on the tour are in fact using brilliant manipulations in the downswing.  He infers that they are talented and might even be winning but that they are doing it the hard way.  

 

But this lesson was about eliminating those  manipulations.  It was about setting a proper position at the top, specifically highlighting the trailing elbow..  (note also his leading wrist is flat).   Then he just explains repeatedly, over and over again, 20-30 times, how to turn the body and pinwheel the trailing arm without pronating it, to move the right arm down to the ball and achieve maximum compression.

 

My own interpretation and commentary, If you are in the proper position at the top, the club face is already closed relative to the swing plane.  if the trailing elbow is in closer, not out...then in the downswing you can simply lower the elbow to your side and make sure to pinwheel the trailing forearm around the rotating body.   zero pronation.  That will arrive you to the ball with a closed face, with extended right wrist so that you can achieve maximum compression on the ball.  It's actually all about getting to the right position at the top, and then making sure the trailing arm pinwheels around your torso as you come down to the ball and avoiding a lot of other manipulations that people do which compromise compression.  The reason people end up doing those other manipulations during the downswing is because they did not handle their backswing ideally and setting at the top in the right way.  Then it might be necessary to manipulate the club during the downswing to close the club face.  

 

there are other people out there saying you need to roll the left wrist into flexion (bowed wrist) at the top, in transition or somewhere along the line, in order to make sure the club face will be closed at impact.  That is not a twisting of the arm by the way.  Twisting of the club grip yes.  But we don't hear Cowen mention this ever in this video, he mentions repeatedly like a broken record about spinning the forearm down (like a pinwheel, not a screw driver, my words).  The assumption is that he is already happen with this wrist being flat and elbow in, so that such a manipulation is not needed.  There was no discussion in this video at all about trying to bow the left wrist by twisting the grip of the club and the words "spinning the arm down" had absolutely nothing to do with that idea.  In fact the entire video is about eliminating those kinds of manipulations.

 

 

[David K]

I wrote this to one person asking a particular question but thought this might be of interest to others as well so posting in the main thread.

 

⁠⁠Forget about the left hand. Concentrate on the right hand. PC talks about this right hand focus in the video he did with Danny a couple months ago where he introduced the cack handed drill. 

 

The entire purpose of all the instruction in that video and Danny’s follow up explanations is to take hand and wrist “ manipulation” out of the golf swing and replace it with the proper hand and wrist movement. Using Pete C’s method is going to be entirely different for virtually any amateur golfer I ever knew—including myself.  100 to 1 you currently rotate your entire right forearm counter clockwise coming down into impact. This is where the outside of your forearm is rotating over the inside of the forearm. 

 

You will see this clearly if you look at a video or still shot of yourself and see that the “inside” of your elbow is pointing more down the target line i.e. in the direction of the target — as your elbow comes down in front of you coming into the delivery position and impact—rather than the inside of the elbow pointing straight out away— in front of you— as if it was pointing at a friend standing directly in front of you. 

 

You will note when you do this in a static fashion— just stand up— bring your right arm down in front of you with your palm open—and fingers extended— in front of you so the back of your elbow— the elbow bone itself— is in front of your right hip— you will notice that the inside of your right forearm AND your right palm is pointing straight out away from you— again like it’s pointing at a friend standing directly in front if you. This is what a delivery position looks and feels like that has no wrist or hand rotation involved as the club has come down. 

 

Contrast this now by doing the same thing with your arm— but rotate your right hand and wrist and forearm to the left— counterclockwise — as you come down. You will find that the inside of your forearm and the inside of your elbow is pointing much more towards the target— or even left of target—than it is your friend standing in front of you. 

 

This is hand “ manipulation”. This manipulation of the hand wrist and forearm is “around” rather than “down”— and hand manipulation requires some offsetting move to deliver the club face squarely to the ball with compression. 

 

Pete C’s point was clearly made that virtually all players including tour pros have some form of manipulation in their golf swings. Those with the best eye hand coordination make the best compensations. 

 

The point of that entire first video done by Danny with PC is that to get the club into the correct deliver position— without manipulating it— first requires that the club be loaded correctly on the backswing so you can “ unload” correctly on the downswing. This cack handed drill does just this— causing you to load the right shoulder and not let the right elbow fly out and away from you at the top of the backswing. This makes it much easier to move the club DOWN— NOT out and around rotationally as the downswing starts. 

 

Most amateurs— including me— do not do this— we are focusing on getting rotational because that’s what we have read and been taught ad nauseum for 2-3 decades now. There is rotational movement in the golf swing— but your arms and hands sb going down from the top with the shaft coming down at a 45 degree angle. AMG golf has shown this with images of tour pros in several videos now in fact. 

 

When you start rotating— more like a merry go round than a Ferris wheel— directly from the top of your backswing— with your shoulders and chest and the club is moving out and away from you— and you starting twisting your wrists and right forearm — you can pretty much figure that getting the club head to the ball in any kind of reasonable— consistent — repeatable fashion is going to be very complicated indeed. 

 

That’s all these videos are about—the ones Danny did with Pete and his follow up explanations and clarifications are about. Load it correctly— then unload it correctly by pressuring down rather than around. The unload piece is the “spin your forearms— hands— wrists”— different terms I think which have been used to describe how to get the club into correct impact position as you unload it correctly.

 

 I agree that Pete’s choice of terms to describe this aspect is unfortunate— because it conjures up the kind of movement that is precisely opposite of what it is intended to do— and is likely to cause most amateurs to exaggerate the incorrect moves they are already making. This is unfortunate— because what he is trying to convey is the exact opposite of those types of moves. 

 

To feel how this aspect is supposed to work— hang your arm in front of you again— back of elbow in front of and pointing to your right hip. Now— without rotating your forearm..ie keep that hollow part of the front of your elbow pointing straight out at your imaginary friend standing in front of you— push the heel of your hand (where it meets your wrist) DOWN— without losing the back bend in your hand— as you “ pressure down” on your hand like this ( pressure which starts up in your forearm—you’ll feel the pressure on the INSIDE of your forearm muscle)— as you do this you will feel your wrist start to “spin”— and your palm will turn down and your fingers in your right hand will point back down the target line— (as if pointing at an imaginary friend standing to your right behind you you). This move puts the club face into a position to be delivered squarely as your body rotates out of the way without having to further manipulate your wrist or hand. 

 

It forces pressure downwards into the head and ground at impact—rather than flicking at it. You hold the back bend in your hand/wrist as you go through impact and the club face squares as you continue to rotate your torso and hips through. Your torso is ROTATING out of the way— but your arms and hands are moving DOWN into impact causing compression into the ball. You are not using hand, wrist, forearm rotation around the axis of the shaft to generate speed or pressure. 

 

That’s all these videos are trying to get to. Load correctly—then “spin” the wrist and palm DOWN— not over and around. It is clear from these videos that Pete C and Danny Maude understand that as easy as it might be to grasp these two concepts— that executing is going to be a challenge. 

 

It appears as if the goal is not to eliminate this rotational hand wrist forearm manipulation—certainly not in three practice swings and three range ball shots. The goal is to gradually take as much hand manipulation out of the swing over time as possible. This is going to be a big challenge for many of us seeing as we have often been taught— and hit God knows how many golf balls in practice— the exact opposite of what this approach is designed to achieve.

 

I have Pete C’s full swing dvd. These lessons with from the dvd and this new video wit Pete C and DM and follow on explanatory comments from Maude fill in a huge gap between the dvd content and what most of us need to make such dvd content effective. 

 

Also— for the most part it is 180 degrees different than the content of the instruction I have received over the past 15 years— most of it from top notch instructors— and most of it totally ineffective. When I started to (very slowly) actually get on correct plane with my forearm and hand in the right delivery position coming down— I admit I was flabbergasted at the results and thought “so this is the what real compression is supposed to feel like”. 

 

With that said—It’s been very hard to take the dvd information and get it into repeatable format. I think these new videos provide some of the missing pieces—and make repeating the correct moves much more probable than simply struggling to get the wrong moves out of my golf swing after years of instruction and tens of thousands of range balls— with all the efforts and money and pain and frustration yielding marginal results. 

 

If the other way isn’t working— this approach may be just what many of us need. Of course Pete C made it perfectly clear that there is nothing wrong with the manipulation approach— only that it makes it harder to repeat consistent contact— especially for those who don’t have good eye hand coordination skills that professionals usually possess— or virtually unlimited time and motivation to develop compensations for bad loading and delivery positions.

 

For my money if the method someone is currently using is delivering satisfactory results— then there may be little incentive to futz around with it. 

 

Sorry for the length of this but sound bytes just raise more questions usually than they answer, hopefully this helps at least some.

[David K]

Btw—the “pinwheel” analogy in the earlier post (a couple above this one) is actually quite good. Hats off to the person—Dewd42–who posted that!!

 

I had to think about it for a few minutes but it accurately describes what it feels like when I do this Pete C move correctly in my BS and DS. The “Ferris wheel” feeling and the back of your right hand and fingers pointing back in towards you like pointing towards someone standing a little to the right behind you.
 

Back of your hand and finger positions look like this because you must maintain the back bend in your right wrist all the way down (while keeping your inner elbow pointing straight out away from you coming down and not “rotating it AT ALL around the axis of your forearm if at all possible—because that’s is “manipulating it” then using Pete C’s definition) and through impact and early follow through until it finally releases.
 

In fact if you “hold the shot off” as Pete C talks about in this video you won’t actually release all of the back bend in the wrist in your follow through—your follow through will be cut off and you will still be holding some of the back bend in the wrist at that finish point. In a full follow through the back bend finally comes out though and the wrist goes flat/neutral. 
 

Hope these comments help someone out there. I know I struggled for some time with these Pete C concepts. Much of the knowledge gap has now been closed and it’s really amazing how well I am hitting the ball on the range—and how hard I am hitting it. Hopefully can translate it all to on course performance now. DK

[vernon]

I guess this confirms that I'm a "visual" person as I still don't get it.........🤷‍♂️

[PracticeSwinger]

I'm intrigued, and would offer that the explanations of the movements would probably be easier to understand using : wrist ulnar deviation, radius bone, palm... rather than pinwheel it and spin the wrist down while the hollow part of your front elbow is pointing at a friend to the back of your side so it pressures the muscle inside... pretty much why everyone is trying to figure out what Pete C is trying to convey in the first place

[Zitlow]

40 minutes ago, vernon said:

I guess this confirms that I'm a "visual" person as I still don't get it.........🤷‍♂️

 

My take on most golf instruction. 

 

 

 

 

[Jajo]

Spin down in what direction? Also which part of the forearm, the hairy part or the smooth part?  Forearm goes clockwise or counter clockwise?  

[BdaGolfer]

Another instructor (Dr. Noel?) did a series of follow-up videos going into detail on the movement. Adds some clarity. 

[nitram]

5 hours ago, BdaGolfer said:

Another instructor (Dr. Noel?) did a series of follow-up videos going into detail on the movement. Adds some clarity. 

How about throwing a brother a LInk or two???

[leegee38]

 

[Carlito]

Part 2

8:00 „coming in with a strong face and reverse swivel for a stable club face“

Opposing force!

Edited October 21, 2023 by Carlito

[Nard_S]

24 minutes ago, Carlito said:

 

I'm finding success with this model when applying what's at the 7-minute mark. Come in with flexed wrist, turning it down but then hold hand open to target after impact. That counter move he describes, just that goal lends all this easier to execute. Part of that counter move is instinct to release trail shoulder down target line and have full extension in follow through. That works for me. If I'm too focused on "spin down ", I handle drag too often. 

[Nickc]

Related Cowen drill

 

Danny Maude incorporating it into his standard output of ideas!?

 

 

[nitram]

19 hours ago, Nickc said:

Related Cowen drill

 

Danny Maude incorporating it into his standard output of ideas!?

 

 

Tour Tempo immediately came to mind on the second video.

[gsrjc]

I don’t understand how to do the spin move of the right forearm being a right handed player versus rotating the wrist?  What is the feel that I should be having in the forearm?

[umamimami]

4 hours ago, gsrjc said:

I don’t understand how to do the spin move of the right forearm being a right handed player versus rotating the wrist?  What is the feel that I should be having in the forearm?

Check out the wording of your question. You actually nailed the difference. Pete is showing that there’s a way to use the rest of you body to swing the club. Not your wrists and hands. Versus indeed.

 

Go to 26:10 min in the Pete cowen Danny video. Follow along. Grab the elbow like Pete does. NOT LIKE DANNY. Note the thumb position differs between them. Let your right/trail hand extend. Do some mock 3/4 at most swings. Please remember that your hand and forearms are travelling along and not leading the show.

 

No need to nail all the instructions in one swing. Just keep ‘em in mind and keep swinging. You’ll find something there.

 

Pressure is what a Pete calls it. 
Other people may use the term loading/unloading. 

 

 

I think Pete is teaching true fundamentals here. A “barebones” golf swing or “generic” swing. 
 

The motion is what your body should be striving to achieve as a baseline. Like on total level ground to a target in 0 wind and with no hazard or slope or anything. The shot goes directly towards the target to which you are exactly perpendicular. Baseline everything.

 

So because it’s a baseline there isn’t the involvement of the hands/forearms because there’s no need.
 

If you feel a lot of hand activity even with your best efforts, I think it may be telling you to investigate the rest of your swinging motion. Maybe with a mirror or video or friend. Perhaps check out Dr. Kwon stuff - he teaches a similarly barebones swing. Contrast what you watch with some recordings you make

for yourself.

 

 

 

 

Let me know how it goes!

 

 

[Nels55]

On 10/20/2023 at 11:28 AM, Jajo said:

Spin down in what direction? Also which part of the forearm, the hairy part or the smooth part?  Forearm goes clockwise or counter clockwise?  

The idea as I understand it is that this is a straight line motion and there is no rotation of the trail forearm.  The spinning is the arm moving down and the elbow straightening.  The pinwheel mentioned above. 

 

[Zitlow]

Ever heard  the term "hit it off the right side"? The right arm has to sync up with the right side if you want to hit the ball with power and consistency. 

 

He isn't getting out of sequence by flailing at the bag with an isolated right arm. He's getting his whole body into the punch from the ground up. 

 

 

You guys who cast or swing the right arm independently from the body would look like sissies throwing weak punches. 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Zitlow

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Ever heard  the term "hit it off the right side"? The right arm has to sync up with the right side if you want to hit the ball with power and consistency. 

 

He isn't getting out of sequence by flailing at the bag with an isolated right arm. He's getting his whole body into the punch from the ground up. 

 

 

 

You guys who cast or swing the right arm independently from the body would look like sissies throwing weak punches. 

 

We are not trying to move a heavy bag in golf.  

Maybe you would tell these guys that they look like sissies?

 

 

Cowen does not teach "cast or swing the right arm independently from the body" anyway.

 

Does this look like a sissy swing?

 

[parforme]

Whenever I see a video of Pete Cowen I feel like I am looking at Quint from the movie Jaws and am waiting for him to say "I'll catch this bird for you but it ain't gonna be easy.  Bad fish."

[Carlito]

On 8/20/2023 at 7:47 PM, Dewdman42 said:

My own interpretation and commentary, If you are in the proper position at the top, the club face is already closed relative to the swing plane.  if the trailing elbow is in closer, not out...then in the downswing you can simply lower the elbow to your side and make sure to pinwheel the trailing forearm around the rotating body.   zero pronation.  That will arrive you to the ball with a closed face, with extended right wrist so that you can achieve maximum compression on the ball.  It's actually all about getting to the right position at the top, and then making sure the trailing arm pinwheels around your torso as you come down to the ball and avoiding a lot of other manipulations that people do which compromise compression.  The reason people end up doing those other manipulations during the downswing is because they did not handle their backswing ideally and setting at the top in the right way.  Then it might be necessary to manipulate the club during the downswing to close the club face.  

I can not agree more....

But can somebody explain the pinwheel analogy? Dont get it in my head. Thanks. 

[AddinsonLoftIII]

I don't know what pinwheel means here either.

Good thread. So in the downswing is the trail arm 'loaded' (externally rotated) at the shoulder, upper arm 'relaxed, passive', the elbow is unfolding 'on plane'*, while the forearm is pronating, i.e. 'spinning down'? (* because of the 'loaded' shoulder?) Is that established now?

Pyramid of Learning and an article from 2010 in International Golf Magazine, helped me to understand the clip with Danny Maude a bit better.

In any case an interesting teacher:  the spiral concept, the axe drill, the opposing hands in the grip, balance - everything 'interrelated', as Dr Noel says above. Cowen seems like a fellow who has thought through his thoughts and in that regard I don't think he just says any old thing. Spinning it down is the spiral at work guys...(maybe)

Recently in a podcast I listened to he said he had given away 3000 instruction books, keeping but only 30. Be curious about those 30 titles. 

[AddinsonLoftIII]

Another question: does the axe drill rehearse the movements of the trail arm in the Danny Clip?