Calculating breaks on putts

[Z1ggy16]

PSA - If you aren't interested in actually discussing this, that's fine with me... but don't waste your time commenting "don't over think it", etc.

 

I like to use aim point but I'm trying to develop a table or chart I can put in my yardage book to reference for determining how much break to play on putts.

 

I will post a photo below this to illustrate but essentially I'm trying to figure out, on putts that are not exactly right angles to the break line, how does one factor in the amount of break to add or take away, because when you're at an angle to that point, you're slightly up or downhill now and the effective stimp will change, causing more or less break.

 

For example, using a clock as a reference, you've got a putt at 6 o'clock that's on a 3% slope, from 10ft away, on a 10 stimp green. Math says that breaks 15" (see photo). Of course from 3 o'clock your putt breaks 0 inches because it is fully uphill, so you need to hit it harder because the effective stimp is now lower (7.2 to be exact). 

 

My question is... How much break do you now play from 7:30 and 4:30 (exactly 45* from full break and 0 break)? I'm specifically looking for how to do this mathematically because I'm making a large table in excel. 

 

My thought was divide slope by √2 of your at 4:30/1:30 or multiply by √2 if you're at 7:30/10:30 but that does not feel correct.

 

Any thoughts? @joostinyou're smart and love diving into details.... Help me ☺️

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Z1ggy16

[chollier986]

Math says the best players in the world make that putt 41% of the time.

[Z1ggy16]

18 minutes ago, chollier986 said:

Math says the best players in the world make that putt 41% of the time.

[getitdaily]

My stats 1 professor in undergrad was an adjunct...and she was a complete smoke show. 

 

I tried to fail out of my sophomore level business Calc.

 

That's all I got. 

[chollier986]

1 hour ago, Z1ggy16 said:

My point was, don’t over think it.  I’m an engineer and get all geeked out on analytics and such… but if I had all that in my head standing over a 10 footer, can’t be good for my game.  Of course I just play for fun.

[Z1ggy16]

52 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

My stats 1 professor in undergrad was an adjunct...and she was a complete smoke show. 

 

I tried to fail out of my sophomore level business Calc.

 

That's all I got. 

No calc needed, this is just trig.

[tatertot]

Golf is a sport. Try to be an athlete. This is why rounds take 5 hours.

[Z1ggy16]

1 minute ago, chollier986 said:

My point was, don’t over think it.  I’m an engineer and get all geeked out on analytics and such… but if I had all that in my head standing over a 10 footer, can’t be good for my game.  Of course I just play for fun.

I'm just asking for an answer to my question, not really interested in advice.

 

The purpose is not to have it in my head, it's to build a table I can carry with me. If I know 3 basic inputs (distance ball to hole, slope % between ball and hole, stimp) then I can look it up in a table how much break to play.

 

Most people have good putting strokes, but are horrendous at picking line and matching it to pace. Making this about inputs and outputs will remove any error that I add into the equation, hopefully helping me make more putts or get balls closer to the hole.

[Z1ggy16]

1 minute ago, tatertot said:

Golf is a sport. Try to be an athlete. This is why rounds take 5 hours.

Not sure I get your point. What's athleticism and reading putts got to do with one another?

 

[tatertot]

3 minutes ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Not sure I get your point. What's athleticism and reading putts got to do with one another?

 

You need some feel to be able to play golf. You shouldn't rely on a table every time you have a 10 foot putt. Being an athlete is more than athleticism, it's being able play your sport, not just reading stuff out of some book.

Edited July 27, 2023 by tatertot

[kb7]

I guess if you know the slope %, why not just stand at your ball and find your aim point?

 

This level of math is making my head spin.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Z1ggy16 said:

I'm just asking for an answer to my question, not really interested in advice.

 

The purpose is not to have it in my head, it's to build a table I can carry with me. If I know 3 basic inputs (distance ball to hole, slope % between ball and hole, stimp) then I can look it up in a table how much break to play.

 

Most people have good putting strokes, but are horrendous at picking line and matching it to pace. Making this about inputs and outputs will remove any error that I add into the equation, hopefully helping me make more putts or get balls closer to the hole.

I hear you.  But. The issue I find with it all is - you can’t carry a level.  And i apparently suck at guessing slope.  Then you have the facts that most putts carry more that one break.  So it’s two slopes.  🤦‍♂️.  So your inputs are a guess at best.  At worst they’re simply Random , and will result in a less than educated guess. 
 

All that being said. I’m interested genuinely in the question.  Because I’d try it and chart the results. If it nets improvement.  I’d use it.  I’d use a magic 8 ball if it showed me improvement!😂

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Not sure I get your point. What's athleticism and reading putts got to do with one another?

 

I compare putts to say shooting free throws in basketball.  For a good shooter that’s pure feel and athleticism.  There is no measurement. No rigid setup. Just a solid pre shot routine and let it fly.    If you’ve ever been on a run doing that , you know that the moment you think about it. You’ll miss.  Badly.  
 

I naturally see putting as visualizing the line. Setup comfortable and let it fly.  There is no “ green reading “ save for the feel you get with your eyes and hands.  
 

but again. That being said. IF you could work an actual solid measurement , you could add that to the pre shot routine use it to aim and then feel it in the hole after . But that’s a busy deal.  It would have to be really condensed like you said.  In your head or small few lines on a card. 

[Z1ggy16]

39 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I hear you.  But. The issue I find with it all is - you can’t carry a level.  And i apparently suck at guessing slope.  Then you have the facts that most putts carry more that one break.  So it’s two slopes.  🤦‍♂️.  So your inputs are a guess at best.  At worst they’re simply Random , and will result in a less than educated guess. 
 

All that being said. I’m interested genuinely in the question.  Because I’d try it and chart the results. If it nets improvement.  I’d use it.  I’d use a magic 8 ball if it showed me improvement!😂

I have a greens books that has slope %'s on it. USGA Legal. You can pace off the distance from hole to putt... Stimp should be known or very close. (usually 8, 9 or 10 where I am, very rare to see 11+).

 

I totally get everyone's point... I'm not going to grind over a 6 footer that I know probably doesn't move more than a few inches, but this is for longer putts, and to help me go from course to course where I don't get several practice rounds to develop feel. Also, I like problem solving and figuring new things out.

 

This is also meant to be faster than aim point where you need to walk around like Adam Scott or Lydia Ko, putting fingers out, etc. All I need is a quick look at my book, pace the putt... check the chart. It should be fast. I am just not a feel putter.. I see straight lines and visualizing putts breaking over 20ft+ is not easy for me. I'd rather just aim to a point and try to hit it at the right speed.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

Isn't it a simple vector addition?  X and Y components.  Dividing by radical 2 makes sense for a coefficient.  So ~70% of the original vector.

 

Build some models for multiple breaks and changing velocities if you want.

 

I think you're just going to have to calibrate your eyes, feet, and stroke though to a given set of distances and breaks, note how much the ball actually breaks on that slope and putt, then use that information to harmonize your models predictions for other slopes and speeds.  Good luck!

[blades_are_life]

3 hours ago, Z1ggy16 said:

I'm just asking for an answer to my question, not really interested in advice.

 

The purpose is not to have it in my head, it's to build a table I can carry with me. If I know 3 basic inputs (distance ball to hole, slope % between ball and hole, stimp) then I can look it up in a table how much break to play.

 

Most people have good putting strokes, but are horrendous at picking line and matching it to pace. Making this about inputs and outputs will remove any error that I add into the equation, hopefully helping me make more putts or get balls closer to the hole.

Use the table to train your feel, don't view it as a long term solution.

 

 

[Z1ggy16]

3 hours ago, blades_are_life said:

Use the table to train your feel, don't view it as a long term solution.

 

 

I think after long enough, yes it will become more instinctual. Even when I use aim point, I find myself always "guessing" wrong on slope... And we have a few pretty severe greens. 

[Itsjustagame]

The chart isn't going to tell you how hard to hit the putt?

 

[joostin]

8 hours ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Any thoughts? @joostinyou're smart and love diving into details.... Help me ☺️

I got u z1ggy!

 

Did a quick search for the equation you're using, and found it but not how it was derived, but let's just use it.  First take the fall line (your 3 o'clock) as 0°, then most break (your 6 o'clock) as 90°.  The trigonometry works out to sin(angle) as the multiplier.  So the equation becomes:

 

Break distance per foot = sin(angle) * slope% * stimp/20

 

In Excel you'd have to convert degrees to radians, so the equation is shown.

 

 

4:30 is 45°, and the calc above is 1.06" per foot, so on a 10' putt you'd break about 11".  Not sure how close this all is to reality, but hopefully a close approximation.

 

I'm mostly a feel guy so wouldn't use this myself, but if it helps and it's quick go for it.  IMO it's just helping pick start line, then over the putt it's feel because the break distance was already estimated.

[blades_are_life]

4 hours ago, Z1ggy16 said:

I think after long enough, yes it will become more instinctual. Even when I use aim point, I find myself always "guessing" wrong on slope... And we have a few pretty severe greens. 

I think aimpoint probably promotes the development of that skillset less, because its more about using a special system than this would be. If you want to calculate the adjustment with any more accuracy than @joostin and @Jayjay_theweim_guy collectively gave you you would need to use a physics equation which translated stimp to a coefficient of friction and described the path of ball through space as a function of time given that, the angle of the slope, the starting angle relative to the slope, and starting power of the putt. Probably better to see if the simple approach works well as an approximation first 😛

Edited July 28, 2023 by blades_are_life

[Z1ggy16]

7 hours ago, joostin said:

I got u z1ggy!

 

Did a quick search for the equation you're using, and found it but not how it was derived, but let's just use it.  First take the fall line (your 3 o'clock) as 0°, then most break (your 6 o'clock) as 90°.  The trigonometry works out to sin(angle) as the multiplier.  So the equation becomes:

 

Break distance per foot = sin(angle) * slope% * stimp/20

 

In Excel you'd have to convert degrees to radians, so the equation is shown.

 

 

4:30 is 45°, and the calc above is 1.06" per foot, so on a 10' putt you'd break about 11".  Not sure how close this all is to reality, but hopefully a close approximation.

 

I'm mostly a feel guy so wouldn't use this myself, but if it helps and it's quick go for it.  IMO it's just helping pick start line, then over the putt it's feel because the break distance was already estimated.

This is what I thought too... I have notes all over my desk and this is also what I came up with but wasn't confident, thanks. 

 

The only thing I want sure about was if "effective stimp" needed to be taken into account - as you move at an angle away from max break point, not only does the slope effectively change, but the green becomes effectively faster or slower. Example, if you're at 9 o clock there's 0 break... let's say you move to 8 o clock now and using your equation, break is now let's say 3 inches (I didn't do the math yet, just an example). Aim point says something like on a 10 stimp green, when you're at 9 o clock at 3%(fully down hill) that putt is actually like putting on a flat green of stimp 15.5. So at 8 o clock, it's like putting on a green that's got an effective slope of say .5% but now 15.5 speed vs 10, so break might change by 8 inches over 10ft.

 

Not sure if that makes sense or not. Let me know your thoughts.

[joostin]

19 minutes ago, Z1ggy16 said:

This is what I thought too... I have notes all over my desk and this is also what I came up with but wasn't confident, thanks. 

 

The only thing I want sure about was if "effective stimp" needed to be taken into account - as you move at an angle away from max break point, not only does the slope effectively change, but the green becomes effectively faster or slower. Example, if you're at 9 o clock there's 0 break... let's say you move to 8 o clock now and using your equation, break is now let's say 3 inches (I didn't do the math yet, just an example). Aim point says something like on a 10 stimp green, when you're at 9 o clock at 3%(fully down hill) that putt is actually like putting on a flat green of stimp 15.5. So at 8 o clock, it's like putting on a green that's got an effective slope of say .5% but now 15.5 speed vs 10, so break might change by 8 inches over 10ft.

 

Not sure if that makes sense or not. Let me know your thoughts.

Yeah definitely.  We know in real life the downhill breaking putt will break more than the uphill putt on the same slope.  The downhill one we'd tap it, and it takes more time to get to the hole.  The uphill one we'd hit harder, and it takes less time to get there.  So the time that the ball is interacting with the slope is very different.

 

The numbers work out proportionally, so as long as the equation holds up in real life, and you use the effective stimp, you should be good.

 

For 5% slope, 30° uphill (2:00 or 4:00), and 6.1 effective stimp (just saw aimpoint chart), at 10', the calc comes out to 7.6" break.

 

For the same slope, 30° downhill (8:00 or 10:00), 26.1 eff. stimp, at 10', it comes out to 32.6" break.  I don't know how effective stimp changes with angle, but those calculations sound reasonable...

[nosil]

19 hours ago, Z1ggy16 said:

 

My question is... How much break do you now play from 7:30 and 4:30 (exactly 45* from full break and 0 break)? I'm specifically looking for how to do this mathematically because I'm making a large table in excel. 

 

 

I get what you are tying to do, but I question your formula.  If you search for aimpoint aimchart, there are images of what you are trying to accomplish for a 7 stimp green. Plugging in the stimp and values into your formula for the 90* putt results in different answers.   If you can figure out the formula for the 7, you might be able to figure out the formula for the other angles you are trying to calculate.  

[Soloman1]

Sorry, but I only scanned the OP and @joostin comments.

 

Yeah, need green speed. Long ago I made some small charts for each speed. Kind of like old Vector Putting.

 

You test the break from the max break for some constant like 5’, then choose the chart. Choose the distance from the left column, then the clock position from the top row.

 

We all know it will be just a rough guess. Greens are not always the same speed on a course and turf variability is always in play.
 

I think it turned out that linear from the fall line to 90 degrees was close enough and last 5’ or less and that was all that mattered. I could estimate that quickly without any chart. The slope is rarely constant for medium or longer putt.

[5hort5tuff]

I find it interesting that people think this way. I can't imagine standing on the green imagining a clock and calculating slope percentages. 

 

That's why golf is great...there is something for everyone.

[jda]

If you are going to do this with math, you have to include velocity as it decreases.  A 1 degree slope breaks a fraction early with speed than it does at the end.  So you need slope up/down and side slope putt.

 

This is not impossible.  This is how golf games like Golden Tee figure out how to display putts on the screen... they have the everything figured out once you align the putt and then it just waits to plug in the velocity.

 

You are going to need grain too, and dimple pattern and size.  I mostly play prov1, but if I use a ball with different dimples like a Bridgestone, it need to play more grain if the greens are grainy.

 

Probably some wind too.

[puttingmatt]

On 7/27/2023 at 9:21 PM, Itsjustagame said:

The chart isn't going to tell you how hard to hit the putt?

 

Exactly, and how hard the ball is hit, is the difference between ball taking intended break, and ball rolling through break. 

[roundersmitty]

This 10ft putt that breaks 15”…..take the hole away…..would the ball end up at the hole, 2’ by, 4’ by….? Speed is so much more important than line. This putt that breaks 15”,  Some great putters might play only 11” of break not being scared of a 4 footer coming back if missed.  

[YevKasim]

If you have just a simple slope issue with no other bumps or hump between you and the hole, just plumb bob the thing and be done with it. It says the exact same thing that aim something, something tells you.

[jda]

I am joking, but has anybody asked one of the AI engines how much a 15 foot putt with 2 degrees of slope will break?

 

I wrote software for years, worked at Google where we could collect more data for tests and analysis at lunch than most companies have a in a year and we had computers the size of a WalMart buildings.  All of this said, none of them can do what each of our brains can do by looking at a putt for a second.  This is a 4d calculation by the time that you factor in time with the putt losing, or gaining speed.  Even the people who are good at it just seem to know and they cannot explain what happened in their brain.