Should the wrists hinge vertically or should trail wrist go into extension on backswing?

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Yeah.  Sometimes they or depending on the discussion maybe I can learn something...  Monte's signature says it all in that regard.  If you think you know everything it can impede the learning process.

 

We know some things, though. They're called facts.

 

There's a lot of room between "I don't know everything, but I know these things and use that as the basis of these opinions" and "I know everything!"

 

I generally dislike "meta" conversations, so… that's that.

 

I'm still curious what video that Milo stuff is from. What's the YouTube URL?

Edited January 1 by iacas

[Soloman1]

Sigh, of course it depends on grip, release pattern, sequencing, a lot of things. I don’t say that I know everything, but I do know the earth is not flat and I’m not going to learn anything from someone who thinks it is. Just dancing around words and semantics now.

 

I don’t know everything, but spent years studying the measurements with the most knowledgeable people on the non-flat planet on the topic. Teach me something new and validate it with measurements and data, and I’m all in.

[CB67]

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

We know some things, though. They're called facts.

 

There's a lot of room between "I don't know everything, but I know these things and use that as the basis of these opinions" and "I know everything!"

 

I generally dislike "meta" conversations, so… that's that.

 

I'm still curious what video that Milo stuff is from. What's the YouTube URL?

 

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I mentioned my stance on not needing to monitor wrist angles in my post and feel that the reason why is because of the videos that I posted.  This thread would not have this much traction if it weren't for the small talk on the side that can be added.  We talkin bout wrist hinge,  that thread would be 1 page long if all we talked about was wrist hinge because someone would have posted the answer then everyone else would have moved on.  

Are we looking for “traction” in a thread or answers?  Not that you’re correct in your one page assertion because it’s not that simple but now we all understand your posts better.  You’d rather get your traction than real answers.

 

Good to know.

[MonteScheinblum]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Are we looking for “traction” in a thread or answers?  Not that you’re correct in your one page assertion because it’s not that simple but now we all understand your posts better.  You’d rather get your traction than real answers.

 

Good to know.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCMbnoZFwVr/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[Zitlow]

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Absolutely.  I’ll never understand why folks are afraid of conversation.  Ideas aren’t harmful.  Keep the good. Flush the  bad. 

 

For sure. If you ask 10 different instructors how to start the downswing you'll probably get 10 different answers.  

 

The local "experts" don't like it when someone disagrees with their swing theories. 

 

PS: This is an interesting article on the home page about golf instructors and how many of them are actually detrimental to their students' progress.

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/729152/ryan-be-the-star-of-your-golf-lesson/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Blogroll_Home&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused

 

Edited January 1 by Zitlow

[Righty to Lefty]

3 hours ago, Nels55 said:

"Wrist hinge" is different for everyone depending on how they are built and how they grip the club.  Different grip strengths of lead and trail hand can accommodate different hinging motions.  Physical attributes also play a large effect.  There is no universal right answer.

I never disagreed with that and as a matter of fact that was my premise from the beginning that we are all unique athletes so sure we can observe the wrist hinge, but that we are all unique athletes so we definitely shouldn't be copying anyone else's and I contend trying to manipulate most anything in your swing motion will lead to inconsistency because it introduces an unnecessary variable.  That is precisely why I speak from a perspective of impact because that is the one time that we are all subject to the same rules.  

 

3 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Yeah.  Sometimes they or depending on the discussion maybe I can learn something...  Monte's signature says it all in that regard.  If you think you know everything it can impede the learning process.

But if you want to know everything you will aid the learning process. See how I did that!! 

 

6 hours ago, kowalgolf said:

I see where your coming from. I hope I'm not going down another rabbit hole because I saw an old Ben Hogan drill where he puts the butt end of the club on his rear hip and rotates 90 degrees to impact. It changes my sequence where my torso seems to be working better. I've been working the last 3 yrs. with the wrists(Hackmotion) and the lowering of the arms in the DS. Not getting the results I want but I'm a perfectionist which is bad. I've been playing 63 yrs. and I kind of understand the swing in general but the sequence still remains a mystery.

I found the stop the handle drill alone to set off chain reaction and eliminate micromanaging the swing especially when you feel it without rotation and how much force is sent to the wrists. It basically forces rotation of the body and also stabilizes the club at the same time.  The wrists are a very weak link along the pathway that force takes from the ground to the club head and they have to work hard to keep the club stable and are actually working in opposition to each other and the net result is a stable club head.  That is precisely why I simulate impact force using a range mat or such because you can feel how the wrists need to work. 

 

The reason why I stated that I feel like the club falls to my trail hip is simply because if there where no rotation that is where it would fall to if I made a turn and then didn't rotate, in which case the club would fall to the trail hip, but under rotation the club will create the swing circle. If you are patient and wait for the club to fall to at least shaft parallel on the downswing you can literally try to stop the handle end of the club as hard as you can and you can't do it unless you stall your rotation of the body.  It seems counter intuitive but the harder your breaking force on the handle end of the club, the faster you will swing. Am I making sense?  R to L

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

That is precisely why I speak from a perspective of impact because that is the one time that we are all subject to the same rules.  

 

Gonna break my own rule again to ask a question: what specfically does that even mean? PGA Tour players have all sorts of varied looks at impact. Sure, they don't hit up 3° with their typical 7I, but there have been major winners who hit down 8° and those who hit down 1°. There have been high ball hitters, low ball hitters, etc. There have been major champions whose trail hand is flying off the grip at impact and those who look the opposite.

 

Physics (on the smallest levels) and anatomy (on slightly larger levels) are the same, of course… So what the heck does that even mean?

 

16 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

stop the handle drill

 

[kowalgolf]

52 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I never disagreed with that and as a matter of fact that was my premise from the beginning that we are all unique athletes so sure we can observe the wrist hinge, but that we are all unique athletes so we definitely shouldn't be copying anyone else's and I contend trying to manipulate most anything in your swing motion will lead to inconsistency because it introduces an unnecessary variable.  That is precisely why I speak from a perspective of impact because that is the one time that we are all subject to the same rules.  

 

But if you want to know everything you will aid the learning process. See how I did that!! 

 

I found the stop the handle drill alone to set off chain reaction and eliminate micromanaging the swing especially when you feel it without rotation and how much force is sent to the wrists. It basically forces rotation of the body and also stabilizes the club at the same time.  The wrists are a very weak link along the pathway that force takes from the ground to the club head and they have to work hard to keep the club stable and are actually working in opposition to each other and the net result is a stable club head.  That is precisely why I simulate impact force using a range mat or such because you can feel how the wrists need to work. 

 

The reason why I stated that I feel like the club falls to my trail hip is simply because if there where no rotation that is where it would fall to if I made a turn and then didn't rotate, in which case the club would fall to the trail hip, but under rotation the club will create the swing circle. If you are patient and wait for the club to fall to at least shaft parallel on the downswing you can literally try to stop the handle end of the club as hard as you can and you can't do it unless you stall your rotation of the body.  It seems counter intuitive but the harder your breaking force on the handle end of the club, the faster you will swing. Am I making sense?  R to L

Yup, Your thought and my thought is the same. Getting the club to our trail hip. For me once it's there I rotate 90 degrees with the feel the club is on my right hip. Sequence is different but better I hope. I try to hit the ball with my trail hip is one swing thought. Elbows over knees in DS is another thought.  Always been an arm swinger handle yanker, over the top, elbow trailing rear hip in DS and hips leading way to much in DS. Seems I'm going to a pivot oriented swing and being 74 yrs. old this should be a trip.

[Righty to Lefty]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Gonna break my own rule again to ask a question: what specfically does that even mean? PGA Tour players have all sorts of varied looks at impact. Sure, they don't hit up 3° with their typical 7I, but there have been major winners who hit down 8° and those who hit down 1°. There have been high ball hitters, low ball hitters, etc. There have been major champions whose trail hand is flying off the grip at impact and those who look the opposite.

 

Physics (on the smallest levels) and anatomy (on slightly larger levels) are the same, of course… So what the heck does that even mean?

 

 

Standby and I will make a video and post tomorrow because it is easier that way rather than type it all out as it allows me to be more thorough without having to type out a long post. 

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Standby and I will make a video and post tomorrow because it is easier that way rather than type it all out as it allows me to be more thorough without having to type out a long post. 

 

I don't want a video, and I think it's a fairly basic question. I'll try another way: what are these "rules" to which we're "all subject at impact," and why do so many good/great players have so many different looks and feels at impact if these "rules" are so important (to you)?

[glk]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I don't want a video, and I think it's a fairly basic question. I'll try another way: what are these "rules" to which we're "all subject at impact," and why do so many good/great players have so many different looks and feels at impact if these "rules" are so important (to you)?

This comes to mind.

"If you can't explain it simply, you
don't understand it well enough."
- Albert Einstein

[MonteScheinblum]

6 minutes ago, glk said:

This comes to mind.

"If you can't explain it simply, you
don't understand it well enough."
- Albert Einstein

Well said

[Soloman1]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

If you ask 10 different instructors how to start the downswing you'll probably get 10 different answers.

 

OK.

 

The start of the downswing is defined as the point in time when the clubhead changes direction.

 

Please list 10 ways an instructor would tell someone to start the downswing.

 

1.

 

2.

 

3.

 

4.

 

5.

 

6.

 

7.

 

8.

 

9.

 

10.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

OK.

 

The start of the downswing is defined as the point in time when the clubhead changes direction.

 

Please list 10 ways an instructor would tell someone to start the downswing.

 

1.

 

2.

 

3.

 

4.

 

5.

 

6.

 

7.

 

8.

 

9.

 

10.

As silly and basic as it sounds I’d bet we could come up with waaay more than 10.

[Nels55]

The only constant that I know of for impact position among tour pros from slow swinging ladies to the fastest is men is the relationship of the lead arm to the club shaft.  A straight line down the lead arm is always in line with the shaft or in front of the shaft.  With most ams the line down the lead arm is pointing behind the ball with the arms and shaft forming a "Y" position.  This is on normal shots with all clubs.  "y" vs. "Y".  I have thought about this a lot and have spent considerable practice trying to achieve the "y" position and my conclusion is the reason pros reach the "y" position is that they are magic.  

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

The only constant that I know of for impact position among tour pros from slow swinging ladies to the fastest is men is the relationship of the lead arm to the club shaft.  A straight line down the lead arm is always in line with the shaft or in front of the shaft.  With most ams the line down the lead arm is pointing behind the ball with the arms and shaft forming a "Y" position.  This is on normal shots with all clubs.  "y" vs. "Y".  I have thought about this a lot and have spent considerable practice trying to achieve the "y" position and my conclusion is the reason pros reach the "y" position is that they are magic.  

I’ve seen a lot of ams who have the good y and suck badly.  25 caps and a lot of them.  I’ve seen even more with the bad Y who stripe it.

 

Shaft lean is not universal good thing.  
 

About a month ago (and this happens a few times a year) a late 70’s guy with 7 iron club speed in the 50’s shows up.  Great swing, flushed the ball, used to be scratch.  Says he wants to get shaft lean.  I told him he’d hit it shorter, but I could help him gain speed.  He said no he wants shaft lean so he can compress it better and hit it farther.  
 

I gave him the speech.

 

He was convinced all he needed was shaft lean to hit it father.  He gota little demanding with me and I said no problem.

 

I got him left sooner, more open at impact, speed went up a few Mph, dynamic loft w et down about 5*. Spin w et down and carry went down 5%.  He was thrilled.

[rainkingjr]

49 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I’ve seen a lot of ams who have the good y and suck badly.  25 caps and a lot of them.  I’ve seen even more with the bad Y who stripe it.

 

Shaft lean is not universal good thing.  
 

About a month ago (and this happens a few times a year) a late 70’s guy with 7 iron club speed in the 50’s shows up.  Great swing, flushed the ball, used to be scratch.  Says he wants to get shaft lean.  I told him he’d hit it shorter, but I could help him gain speed.  He said no he wants shaft lean so he can compress it better and hit it farther.  
 

I gave him the speech.

 

He was convinced all he needed was shaft lean to hit it father.  He gota little demanding with me and I said no problem.

 

I got him left sooner, more open at impact, speed went up a few Mph, dynamic loft w et down about 5*. Spin w et down and carry went down 5%.  He was thrilled.

That's hilarious. I guess sometimes as an instructor you have to suck it up and say, okay, it's your money.

[Nels55]

48 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I’ve seen a lot of ams who have the good y and suck badly.  25 caps and a lot of them.  I’ve seen even more with the bad Y who stripe it.

 

Shaft lean is not universal good thing.  
 

About a month ago (and this happens a few times a year) a late 70’s guy with 7 iron club speed in the 50’s shows up.  Great swing, flushed the ball, used to be scratch.  Says he wants to get shaft lean.  I told him he’d hit it shorter, but I could help him gain speed.  He said no he wants shaft lean so he can compress it better and hit it farther.  
 

I gave him the speech.

 

He was convinced all he needed was shaft lean to hit it father.  He gota little demanding with me and I said no problem.

 

I got him left sooner, more open at impact, speed went up a few Mph, dynamic loft w et down about 5*. Spin w et down and carry went down 5%.  He was thrilled.

It is possible to have shaft lean with a "Y" impact position and I think that anyone who plays well and stripes it with the "Y" position still has the hands at least even with but probably in front of the ball. 

 

I have seen a lot of "physics" claims with the math done that a "y" impact produces more speed.  LOL I have not really studied the math and I don't know how much validity that there is to the claim.  Obviously impact position is related to where the hands are at shaft parallel in the downswing.  The further towards the target the more likely a "y" position or more then that with lead arm and shaft at impact.  The late hit.

 

It is possible to be "y" at impact with very little shaft lean which is what I believe slower swinging tour pros do.  Ball more forward in the stance and also where the lead shoulder is at impact are factors.

 

Interesting that you see a lot of 25 caps with "y" impact.  I have videoed quite a few golfers maybe .01 percent of the number you have and have never seen it.  That's good info.

[MonteScheinblum]

20 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

It is possible to have shaft lean with a "Y" impact position and I think that anyone who plays well and stripes it with the "Y" position still has the hands at least even with but probably in front of the ball. 

 

I have seen a lot of "physics" claims with the math done that a "y" impact produces more speed.  LOL I have not really studied the math and I don't know how much validity that there is to the claim.  Obviously impact position is related to where the hands are at shaft parallel in the downswing.  The further towards the target the more likely a "y" position or more then that with lead arm and shaft at impact.  The late hit.

 

It is possible to be "y" at impact with very little shaft lean which is what I believe slower swinging tour pros do.  Ball more forward in the stance and also where the lead shoulder is at impact are factors.

 

Interesting that you see a lot of 25 caps with "y" impact.  I have videoed quite a few golfers maybe .01 percent of the number you have and have never seen it.  That's good info.

That’s a correlation not causation. More speed create more shaft lean or more lag, nit the other way around.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, rainkingjr said:

That's hilarious. I guess sometimes as an instructor you have to suck it up and say, okay, it's your money.

I’m in customer service in the leisure industry.  Sometimes I have to give people what they want.  I let them know they likely won’t  hit it farther or shoot lower, but if that’s what they really want…..

 

I want to have that pretty lag in my swing like the pros.

 

I want to be able to hit PW over 150 and spin it back a bunch like the pros

 

I don’t care if it hit it worse and shoot higher, I’m tired of looking at a fade, I want to hit a draw.

 

I don’t like what an open face at address looks like.  Show me how to hit a sand shot out of fluffy sand with a square face and with my regular wedge, not an alien or whatever.

 

I don’t care what I shoot, I just want my swing to look like Ernie Els.

 

None of them are rude, they just want to do it a certain way….and you know what, that’s fine….as long as they know what they’re getting into.

[Valtiel]

54 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I don’t like what an open face at address looks like.  Show me how to hit a sand shot out of fluffy sand with a square face and with my regular wedge, not an alien or whatever.

This is one of my favs, because it's the best "golf is a stupid unintuitive thing" litmus test. I gave a quick bunker tip to a friend who was square faced and struggling for all the obvious reasons. I opened his clubface and had to reset it like 3 or 4 times because he kept slowly squaring it up when getting ready to hit, just didn't understand what the club is supposed to do and couldn't trust the open face. Finally got him to hit one as opened as I wanted it to be...popped right up and lipped out. He was thrilled, fixed forever etc. In hindsight I should have checked his grip to make sure he wasn't rolling his wrists to the right to open the face.....and probably gotten him to hit about 100 more hah.

[Righty to Lefty]

14 hours ago, glk said:

This comes to mind.

"If you can't explain it simply, you
don't understand it well enough."
- Albert Einstein

I am going to explain it simply...but I want to be as concise as possible. So hopefully no one will object to that. I am also going to carry @iacas question over to new thread because I am going to be straying far away from wrist angles.  

[Righty to Lefty]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I don't want a video, and I think it's a fairly basic question. I'll try another way: what are these "rules" to which we're "all subject at impact," and why do so many good/great players have so many different looks and feels at impact if these "rules" are so important (to you)?

This is a quick an excellent and quick representation of golf in a nutshell ( I time stamped it to start at the relevant part at 8:09):  

I will leave this here but still make another video in a new thread because this is also relevant to why I don't agree with monitoring wrist angles and such as the swing motion should be felt as a whole while monitoring the low point of the swing arc. Shawn has his own unique swing and the club will bottom out in a certain location in relation to his physical build. His ball position will not look the same as someone else's because we are not all built the same.  This is the most basic d plane and ball flight laws lesson so long as you understand what you are trying to accomplish with a given shot to build a reference to carry forward to future shots. This is a quick explanation that I'm sure will leave other questions so that is why I want to make a more thorough post in a new thread.  

[glk]

54 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I am going to explain it simply...but I want to be as concise as possible. So hopefully no one will object to that. I am also going to carry @iacas question over to new thread because I am going to be straying far away from wrist angles.  

My simple list of factors (not necessarily rules but imagine you can call them such and expect there can be additional  factors)  there are many ways to accomplish these - just like backswings, impact positions vary a lot among golfers (and even for the same golfer one Impact to the next is going to have variation)  basically if you want to improve your impact then look to improve one or more of these factors based on one's current motion.     

 

Sweet spot contact

face control, direction at impact

Path control, direction at impact

Low point control

aoa

club head speed

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2 by glk

[Zitlow]

Whatever you do to set your hands get it right because golf swings are make or break in the takeaway. 

[Nels55]

8 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s a correlation not causation. More speed create more shaft lean or more lag, nit the other way around.

LOL I have used that argument in the past, I learned it from you!  The thing is that I have seen high speed ams who are "Y" but I have never seen a successful tour pro who was "Y" at impact.  I have seen one long drive guy and one not so successful minor league lady pro who were "Y" but never any successful tour players doing that at impact.  

[MonteScheinblum]

45 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

LOL I have used that argument in the past, I learned it from you!  The thing is that I have seen high speed ams who are "Y" but I have never seen a successful tour pro who was "Y" at impact.  I have seen one long drive guy and one not so successful minor league lady pro who were "Y" but never any successful tour players doing that at impact.  

Tom Kim

[KMeloney]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Whatever you do to set your hands get it right because golf swings are make or break in the takeaway. 

 

That's kind of what this entire thread is about, despite some contending that nothing but impact matters (suggesting that nothing can/should be done prior to impact to facilitate it).

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

… this is also relevant to why I don't agree with monitoring wrist angles and such as the swing motion should be felt as a whole while monitoring the low point of the swing arc.

 

That's not what I asked about. And maybe what you're saying is that this is the part that's relevant to the topic, but then I don't know why you quoted me and the question I asked you about your oft-used statement about "impact."

 

And… as always, those who need to work on the wrist angles may need to "monitor" them for a bit. Those who don't, maybe they don't. But I continue to think it's BS to say no golfers should ever think about or "monitor" or pay attention to or change their "wrist angles."

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is a quick explanation that I'm sure will leave other questions so that is why I want to make a more thorough post in a new thread.

 

I'm fairly confident it will not lead to other questions. 😄 

Edited January 2 by iacas