Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing...Stop the Handle Late In Downswing.

[Righty to Lefty]

This was a topic that was brought up in a thread and I wanted to make a video and also start a topic on this subject because I feel it is important: 

 

 

Edited January 12 by Righty to Lefty
Added Second Video

[KD1]

Who advocates pulling the club from the top?

[MPStrat]

46 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Who advocates pulling the club from the top?

The club is going to be pulled from the top in some way. It’s due to a combination of things. 
 

But aggressively trying to speed up the hands from the top using the forearm muscles is what I think the OP is talking about. 
 

Another name for it is hit impulse. This impulse can only be used once. My question is, how many golfers need an earlier hit impulse? That answer probably isn’t zero. I obviously don’t know what it is, but it’s a lot less than those who need a later hit impulse. 
 

I didn’t watch all of the OPs video so I’m not giving the seal of approval on it, but as a concept I don’t mind the thread title. I’m sure many of the things said in the video will be fairly picked apart or debunked and the conversation will become about what the data says about hand speed which doesn’t really tell us what to do or how to achieve it
 

IMO, p4 is a time for calm; not giving oneself a hernia trying to achieve a higher max hand speed with the forearm muscles. 
 

Athletically, hitting with the hands from the top doesn’t make much sense to me. Getting the body aligned properly and then snapping the towel as loud as possible makes more sense. I’d bet we could measure some high hand speed with that intent. 

[KD1]

9 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

But aggressively trying to speed up the hands from the top using the forearm muscles is what I think the OP is talking about.

...

Athletically, hitting with the hands from the top doesn’t make much sense to me.

 

Okay. That is certainly taught to those that need it. That's more throwing the club to me if I'm picturing this correctly, pulling the club means something else entirely in my mind.

Edited January 10 by KD1

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Okay. That is certainly taught to those that need it. Pulling the club means something else entirely in my mind.

Some have hijacked the word pull to mean bad and lower to mean good. The club can be pulled in a number of ways. Some good, some not so good. 

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

Who advocates pulling the club from the top?

 

pull and cast/throwing are different to me. People have always said pulling the club from the top is bad, universally I think it is accepted as a bad idea. To me that is more of a pulling the handle narrow towards the ball? At least that is how I always viewed pulling the club from the top.

 

Casting/throwing the clubhead is a bit different, I've even heard Tiger point out some pro's using some cast from the top. He points is out in Homa's swing in a recent video I saw. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

 

Okay. That is certainly taught to those that need it. That's more throwing the club to me if I'm picturing this correctly, pulling the club means something else entirely in my mind.

He uses the word fall….lol, but he is saying and demonstrating actively bringing the hands and arms down and unloading the right elbow first move down, while the right shoulder stays back.  Add Tiger to Rose, Rory, Sergio, Bryson and Harrington, among others, who advocate this.  This is exactly what the AMG video that caused such a stir a few months ago is saying happens.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C10w408rdib/?igsh=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==

Edited January 10 by MonteScheinblum

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C10w408rdib/?igsh=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==

Im wondering how he’s accounting for the potential loss of max hand speed by letting it fall like that 😂 

[MattM97]

19 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

He uses the word fall….lol, but he is saying and demonstrating actively bringing the hands and arms down and unloading the right elbow first move down, while the right shoulder stays back.  Add Tiger to Rose, Rory, Sergio, Bryson and Harrington, among others, who advocate this.  This is exactly what the AMG video that’s caused such a stir a few months ago is saying happens.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C10w408rdib/?igsh=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==

 

So pulling, got it. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, MattM97 said:

 

So pulling, got it. 

This is very different from pulling the club down.  Doing this correctly moves the center of mass of the club away from the ball.

[glk]

Midhands force - blue arrow.  Starts moving away from the target then thru impact  force is working toward the body - up   At impact force is almost 100% normal.   Wrists unhinging combined with lead leg straightening and lead shoulder rising is what flattens the arc of the clubhead thru impact - not truly flat but less steepness.

 

 

If you want to nerd out on the flat spot this pandemic video with Andrew rice and Chris como is an hour of your life you may want to spend.  Chris supplies lots of high tech diagrams, lol.

 

 

Edited January 10 by glk

[iacas]

Oh boy.

 

Good players are putting force into the club basically the entire downswing, and they're not trying to stop the grip at impact. Basically, nearly the exact opposite of what's said.

 

Kyle Berkshire is doing all he can to put force into the club for as long as he can — which is why long drive guys (and instructors of regular golfers) talk sometimes about "hand path length."

 

This has been measured. It's considered known fact, I guess unless you're a long-time aspiring Internet golf guru, I guess.

[Tfb003]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh boy.

 

Good players are putting force into the club basically the entire downswing, and they're not trying to stop the grip at impact. Basically, nearly the exact opposite of what's said.

 

Kyle Berkshire is doing all he can to put force into the club for as long as he can — which is why long drive guys (and instructors of regular golfers) talk sometimes about "hand path length."

 

This has been measured. It's considered known fact, I guess unless you're a long-time aspiring Internet golf guru, I guess.

Doesn’t AMG and others (Scott Cowx on a video using Dewiz) discuss max hand speed early and the hands decelerating between ~P5.5 and impact? How is what he is demonstrating any different? I believe others describe it as snapping the towel. Is all of that just supposed to happen on the own or with the intention of putting as much force in as possible? Genuinely interested in this topic and would love to be able to measure this without buying something like a dewiz. In the Scott Cowx video he was getting some nice ball speed improvements by optimizing this variable.

[getitdaily]

I'd like to know how you're lett8ng the club fall to waist high and then stopping the handle just before impact but still hit the ball with max leverage. 

 

Can ju esplain tha-to me Lucy? 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Tfb003 said:

Doesn’t AMG and others (Scott Cowx on a video using Dewiz) discuss max hand speed early

 

Yes, which speak to how Adrian is wrong about the hands "falling" to ~P6, as they reach peak speed before P6.

 

2 hours ago, Tfb003 said:

and the hands decelerating between ~P5.5 and impact?

 

They don't slam on the brakes, if that's what you're trying to imply. Golfers are not "braking" like AJ demonstrated.

 

2 hours ago, Tfb003 said:

How is what he is demonstrating any different?

 

He's demonstrating feels that are measurably incorrect — and by that I mean they are decidedly and clearly not what the game's best golfers actually do.

[dminn23]

10 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

He uses the word fall….lol, but he is saying and demonstrating actively bringing the hands and arms down and unloading the right elbow first move down, while the right shoulder stays back.  Add Tiger to Rose, Rory, Sergio, Bryson and Harrington, among others, who advocate this.  This is exactly what the AMG video that caused such a stir a few months ago is saying happens.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C10w408rdib/?igsh=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==

Seems like the intended consequence of when someone says “feel like you’re hitting the ball with your back to the target”.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, dminn23 said:

Seems like the intended consequence of when someone says “feel like you’re hitting the ball with your back to the target”.

Same idea, different perception 

[Hilts1969]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Yes, which speak to how Adrian is wrong about the hands "falling" to ~P6, as they reach peak speed before P6.

 

 

They don't slam on the brakes, if that's what you're trying to imply. Golfers are not "braking" like AJ demonstrated.

 

 

He's demonstrating feels that are measurably incorrect — and by that I mean they are decidedly and clearly not what the game's best golfers actually do.

 

The problem the OP has in this thread and the other one is he keeps making statements as factual moves ie add no force to the club till p6. He then demonstrates videos that actually debunk what he is saying in actual movements.

 

A feel can almost never be 100% incorrect because it may work for a golfer with certain issues.

 

As a club puller who delays release by shoving my hands too far forward( thanks golf digest;-))

the ops FEELS, because that's what they are, may help someone like me although they didn't for me personally.

 

I have tried being patient from the top and stopping the handle(in reality that's just abruptly changing its direction) and got huge pulls and hooks which I suffer from anyhow. 

 

What i cannot argue is that these two FEELS don't work for the OP or anyone else.

 

My guess woukd be he accelerates smoother from the top than he used to which feels like not accelerating at all(but he does) this may also feel like he tumbles the club around P6(This in reality isn't stopping the handle though)

 

In the old days this could be described as a late hit. Tis nothing new.

 

 

[i*windows]

lots of decent players like to pull down, also lots of ways to describe things. Rosey, Sergio call it a pull, others may not

 

saw a clinic with Sergio and he described his key feel/move was to feel like he was pulling on a chain from the top

 

this from 9.20

 

. 

[DShepley]

9 hours ago, i*windows said:

lots of decent players like to pull down, also lots of ways to describe things. Rosey, Sergio call it a pull, others may not

 

saw a clinic with Sergio and he described his key feel/move was to feel like he was pulling on a chain from the top

 

this from 9.20

 

. 

I think key is that Sergio's feel is to pull the chain straight down not towards the ball.

[Zitlow]

For all the Mike Austin in his skeleton suit afficionados of which there are none except for me. 

 

 

 

[argee1977]

It's another one of those painful things about the golf swing, where a lot of instructors are saying pull the club down, others are about letting it fall and then others actively keeping the club up whilst turning, clear as mud 😂

 

Reality is it'll be different thinking for different people, you say pull on the club and some will do it with their hands, some will do it with their arms, some will pull it hard, some will do it softer, etc, etc, the words 'pulling it down' can mean several things and get folk posting loads of youtube videos, main thing is to work out what balance you need from the top, do you need more 'pull' or not, a golf coach is about the only one that'll tell you that in real life or via video maybe.

 

Personally, whenever i read stuff or see videos talking about it, i do think the person is right with their thinking, but it's hard to put into words or videos sometimes, and confusion reigns!

[KMeloney]

At the 1:34 mark, the OP shows "pulling on the shaft" as the same exact motion/action he makes later in his downswing -- just earlier. So, is he in fact advocating for pulling on the shaft, but just later in the downswing/closer to impact?

 

 

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, argee1977 said:

It's another one of those painful things about the golf swing, where a lot of instructors are saying pull the club down, others are about letting it fall and then others actively keeping the club up whilst turning, clear as mud 😂

 

Reality is it'll be different thinking for different people, you say pull on the club and some will do it with their hands, some will do it with their arms, some will pull it hard, some will do it softer, etc, etc, the words 'pulling it down' can mean several things and get folk posting loads of youtube videos, main thing is to work out what balance you need from the top, do you need more 'pull' or not, a golf coach is about the only one that'll tell you that in real life or via video maybe.

 

Personally, whenever i read stuff or see videos talking about it, i do think the person is right with their thinking, but it's hard to put into words or videos sometimes, and confusion reigns!

This is a really good post. I’ll add to the confusion that not all pros pull the same technique-wise. There are some differences in how these great players move in the change of direction. The contention that every pro pulls on the club like the vanilla swing avatar is the only major disagreement I ever had with some of this content.  
 

From there it becomes a debate on how to get it done and your post covered some of that confusion very well. It’s not uncommon for one teacher to say  “most of my students need to do x” and another to say “most of my students need to do y” talking about the same concept 

 

[Simpsonia]

On 1/10/2024 at 12:13 PM, glk said:

Midhands force - blue arrow.  Starts moving away from the target then thru impact  force is working toward the body - up   At impact force is almost 100% normal.   Wrists unhinging combined with lead leg straightening and lead shoulder rising is what flattens the arc of the clubhead thru impact - not truly flat but less steepness.

 

 

IMG_0967.mov 12.46 MB · 12 downloads

 

If you want to nerd out on the flat spot this pandemic video with Andrew rice and Chris como is an hour of your life you may want to spend.  Chris supplies lots of high tech diagrams, lol.

 

 

So would it be fair to say that the force graph sort of shows of the old adage of "pull in the direction of the grip"? 

[glk]

51 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

So would it be fair to say that the force graph sort of shows of the old adage of "pull in the direction of the grip"? 

Sure.

[GolfTurkey]

6 hours ago, Zitlow said:

For all the Mike Austin in his skeleton suit afficionados of which there are none except for me. 

 

 

It would be quite distasteful for me to point out that he doesn't need to wear the suit anymore, so I won't.

[GolfTurkey]

I think it has been flogged to death on here before that body parts are not consciously braked; the acceleration / unloading of the next segment in the chain applies a braking force to the prior segment.

[Hidraw]

The main issue, IMOP, is that we have two half brains but one conciousness providing only one narrow focus at one time.

So, as a golfer, we get Mr Left Golfer and Mr Right Golfer trying to work together.

At the Top of Swing, Mr Left Golfer and Mr Right Golfer are doing different tasks - one shifting the hands down from the shoulder plane to the elbow plane while the other concurrently starting the swing pulling the hands and club around the body.

In this Tiger's clip, Mr Tiger Right is expressing most of the time about swing plane shifting while Mr Tiger Left only mention of moving the left hip.  But through the stretching of the left side, moving the left hip pulls the left shoulder forward, swings the left arm downward, starts the club motion around the body.






 

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, Zitlow said:

For all the Mike Austin in his skeleton suit afficionados of which there are none except for me. 

 

 

 

Not sure what he is talking about?  I do notice that his lead arm is in a completely different position at impact then it was in at the top: