Neutral swing path - dispersion and consistency

[skim4]

Hey Golfers,

Been hitting with my Mevo+ a while now and came across some findings that might be obvious to some on here. But they weren't for me!

 

I've always had a very neutral swing path ( like averages 0)  and played big misses both left and right. I've always heard of the two way miss being bad as well. 

 

Been working with a coach and have seen my path start to go to inside to out 4 or 5 degrees. And I've noticed my dispersion and consistency on target have improved dramatically. 

 

I think this comes down to having an inside to out path ALLOWS me to be less consistent with my face angle. With a neutral path any deviation from a neutral club face results in the ball starting off target and continuing more in the wrong direction. 

 

With a inside to out path - my face angle can still deviate some in relation to the target and the ball wont go wildly off course. It will come back to the target some. 

 

This seems counter intuitive to me as swinging more to the right helped me not hit it OB right! 

 

This may be obvious to some! But not to all of us hackers. 

Edited January 16 by skim4

[getitdaily]

I'm not a fan of neutral path unless you consistently deliver ftp that delivers a 1 direction ballflight. 

 

If you get both open and closed to path and your path is 0 then I'm a fan of figuring out how to consistently hit it in 1 pattern and take path mostly out of the equation. 

 

Be careful tho...path of 4-5 in either direction is on the edge of extreme. 

[skim4]

16 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

I'm not a fan of neutral path unless you consistently deliver ftp that delivers a 1 direction ballflight. 

 

If you get both open and closed to path and your path is 0 then I'm a fan of figuring out how to consistently hit it in 1 pattern and take path mostly out of the equation. 

 

Be careful tho...path of 4-5 in either direction is on the edge of extreme. 

Right on! I will. I'm mainly just excited because I can feel sometimes if I leave that club face too open. Before it would be OB right push slice of death. Now it goes right but comes back to an acceptable miss. 

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, skim4 said:

Right on! I will. I'm mainly just excited because I can feel sometimes if I leave that club face too open. Before it would be OB right push slice of death. Now it goes right but comes back to an acceptable miss. 

Seems you're learning clubface awareness. Take notes on what you feel in the swing when you miss right and what you feel when you get the face to path correct. 

 

Advantage of having a launch monitor is you can test and confirm those feels. That's been the biggest thing for me with my mevo+...I have been able to confirm what I do that leaves the fave too open and when I hit the occasional pull. That makes for really fast on-course adjustments. 

[Kuuuch]

Funny story, awhile back one of the guys I play with on the KFT got his first trackman. He let me hit on it and said I should try to get my swing path as close to 0 as possible. I was young and thought "oh that sounds like a great idea". Ended up grinding on a neutral path and played our club championship that weekend. I was such a headcase because I had no idea if I was going to fade it or draw it. Didn't end well. 

[Primo1868]

Man this hits me so hard in the feels. I live around neutral too but lack solid clubface control and the ability to consistently control my path which really hurts my scores.

 

I need a launch monitor and/or a good coach so badly.

[skim4]

25 minutes ago, Primo1868 said:

Man this hits me so hard in the feels. I live around neutral too but lack solid clubface control and the ability to consistently control my path which really hurts my scores.

 

I need a launch monitor and/or a good coach so badly.

Yea. It seems hard to do the neutral path well unless you have very very good club face control. 

 

Online coaches can be good! Convenient for sure. 

[collje26]

I've been doing a deep time since I got a launch monitor on the path numbers and what is acceptable or within reason. I'm trying to be as neutral as possible but any insight as to what would be reasonable for club path, start direction etc would be great. I've posted some videos and numbers as well.

 

 

Edited February 7 by collje26
Video

[collje26]

 

[skim4]

I think being consistently on one path or the other is the key. Being super neutral opens one up to two way misses and more of a chance to start the ball off target and have it spin more off target. 
 
unless you have really good club face control. 

but I’m wrong often in this crazy realm of golf. 

[collje26]

I’m wrong all the time so I’m in the same boat. I’m consistently in to out path and it’s usually around 2-3 degrees but sometimes get to 4-5 degrees. 

[GungHoGolf]

7 minutes ago, skim4 said:

I think being consistently on one path or the other is the key. Being super neutral opens one up to two way misses and more of a chance to start the ball off target and have it spin more off target. 
 
unless you have really good club face control. 

but I’m wrong often in this crazy realm of golf. 

 

I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here. I spend a lot of time on Trackman and I like to be within 1° of a neutral path. It’s just what works best for me, as someone who naturally had an OTT move, overcorrected that into big pushes/hooks, and now am in my happy place.

 

Big two-way misses happen more with big inside or outside paths – the dreaded double-cross when you come into it with a face square to path or worse.

 

Maybe you’re getting more consistent with face control because you’re taking lessons and improving your swing. Having the face 1° open or closed to ideal will cause the same magnitude of miss regardless of path.

 

A whole lot of pros hit very straight shots that maybe move a yard or two. And I think it’s easier to fade or draw as needed if your baseline is neutral.

[skim4]

2 minutes ago, collje26 said:

I’m wrong all the time so I’m in the same boat. I’m consistently in to out path and it’s usually around 2-3 degrees but sometimes get to 4-5 degrees. 

I think that's a good range but hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in and let you know. I think being 2- 3 in to out and the miss being more in to out is better than being 2 to 3 in to out and the miss being 1 out to in. If that makes sense? At least the ball has the same ball flight direction/ spin 

[collje26]

Just now, skim4 said:

I think that's a good range but hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in and let you know. I think being 2- 3 in to out and the miss being more in to out is better than being 2 to 3 in to out and the miss being 1 out to in. If that makes sense? At least the ball has the same ball flight direction/ spin 

I would tend to agree as well as the the start direction and spin axis being close to zeroing each other out. I just haven’t seen much information and I know there’s differences between how trackman and foresight measure data. I’m told that foresight club head data is way more accurate and to have more faith in those numbers or readings. 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here. I spend a lot of time on Trackman and I like to be within 1° of a neutral path. It’s just what works best for me, as someone who naturally had an OTT move, overcorrected that into big pushes/hooks, and now am in my happy place.

 

To play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate… and in general, not specific to you…

 

I try to get my students to about 2-3° of path, whether that's left or right. I generally like this because if your path is 0°… very few shots are going to curve toward the target. That can feel "demoralizing" for lack of a better word to see almost every shot you hit curving away from the target. 0° path means every shot that isn't hit with a 0° face is going to start left or right and curve farther left or right.

 

So, for students, I generally work them toward 2-3° of path.

 

Now, you could be ±1° but align a bit left or right to play your stock shot. And maybe that's what you do on the course, and I'd take no issue with that at all.

 

7 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

A whole lot of pros hit very straight shots that maybe move a yard or two. And I think it’s easier to fade or draw as needed if your baseline is neutral.

 

While their shots don't often curve much, it's rare to find someone still whose shots curve "a yard or two." Most of them are curving it 5+ yards for anything longer than about a 9I, and that's just looking at the Trackman output or whatever. Of course, that's still only 15 feet… which over 185 yards doesn't appear to be much (5/185 is 2.7%).

[GungHoGolf]

12 minutes ago, collje26 said:

I just haven’t seen much information and I know there’s differences between how trackman and foresight measure data. I’m told that foresight club head data is way more accurate and to have more faith in those numbers or readings. 

My company sells all makes and models of launch monitors, and we’ve spent a lot of time hitting on our Trackman and GC Quad simultaneously indoors.

 

They’re both very accurate and rarely do we see a significant difference in their reads. I prefer hitting on TM because a) I don’t like messing with face stickers, b) the software and user interface is nicer imo.

Edited February 7 by GungHoGolf

[skim4]

11 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

A whole lot of pros hit very straight shots that maybe move a yard or two. And I think it’s easier to fade or draw as needed if your baseline is neutral.

 

My club face control is still pretty abysmal. I flip hard at it with a badly sequenced backswing. One day... maybe ill have the good club face control. 

I also think its easier to hit unintended draws or fades with the neutral club path as well.. for someone like me.  

[collje26]

8 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

My company sells all makes and models of launch monitors, and we’ve spent a lot of time hitting on our Trackman and GC Quad simultaneously indoors.

 

They’re both very accurate and rarely do we see a significant difference in their reads. I prefer hitting on TM because a) I don’t like messing with face stickers, b) the software and user interface is nicer imo.

When you reference significant differences I usually see 2-3 degrees between club path from TM vs Foresight. What do you typically see?

[GungHoGolf]

Just now, collje26 said:

When you reference significant differences I usually see 2-3 degrees between club path from TM vs Foresight. What do you typically see?

Rarely more than 1° off if the TM is aligned properly. The TM requires more effort to get it aligned properly, but once it’s set, it’s good unless someone bumps it.

[PracticeSwinger]

45 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

To play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate… and in general, not specific to you…

 

I try to get my students to about 2-3° of path, whether that's left or right. I generally like this because if your path is 0°… very few shots are going to curve toward the target. That can feel "demoralizing" for lack of a better word to see almost every shot you hit curving away from the target. 0° path means every shot that isn't hit with a 0° face is going to start left or right and curve farther left or right.

 

So, for students, I generally work them toward 2-3° of path.

 

Now, you could be ±1° but align a bit left or right to play your stock shot. And maybe that's what you do on the course, and I'd take no issue with that at all.

 

 

While their shots don't often curve much, it's rare to find someone still whose shots curve "a yard or two." Most of them are curving it 5+ yards for anything longer than about a 9I, and that's just looking at the Trackman output or whatever. Of course, that's still only 15 feet… which over 185 yards doesn't appear to be much (5/185 is 2.7%).

Love this - and to play the devils advocate to the… you get the idea

 

I’m genuinely asking, if we look at it theoretically - let’s say that player A can swing from +4 to 0 / while player B goes +2 to -2… so both with a 4* path range… would their dispersion at 150yds, 200yds and/or any other yardage be the same?

 

If that’s a no, then we need to be either A or B - the one that has the lowest dispersion… right?

 

If that’s a yes, then I think this is where the ‘demoralizing’ effect of having your ball always curve away from target + sentiment of not knowing which side it’ll curve on that shot (even though the overall dispersion is the same) that would lead to preference of always be in-out or out-in

[CSagan]

4 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Love this - and to play the devils advocate to the… you get the idea

 

I’m genuinely asking, if we look at it theoretically - let’s say that player A can swing from +4 to 0 / while player B goes +2 to -2… so both with a 4* path range… would their dispersion at 150yds, 200yds and/or any other yardage be the same?

 

If that’s a no, then we need to be either A or B - the one that has the lowest dispersion… right?

 

If that’s a yes, then I think this is where the ‘demoralizing’ effect of having your ball always curve away from target + sentiment of not knowing which side it’ll curve on that shot (even though the overall dispersion is the same) that would lead to preference of always be in-out or out-in

Yeah I believe their dispersion would be the same according to their dispersion in face angle at impact. Just boils down to how you prefer to see the ball flying. Non neutral players (especially ams) miss it both ways with all kinds of paths. 

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

I’m genuinely asking, if we look at it theoretically - let’s say that player A can swing from +4 to 0 / while player B goes +2 to -2… so both with a 4* path range… would their dispersion at 150yds, 200yds and/or any other yardage be the same?

 

It depends on how they manage the face, but sure.

 

The point is more that players are often more comfortable playing one shot (whether a draw or a fade) that works toward the target than they are playing who knows what curve that might be curving away from the target, as you go on to say:

 

28 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

If that’s a yes, then I think this is where the ‘demoralizing’ effect of having your ball always curve away from target + sentiment of not knowing which side it’ll curve on that shot (even though the overall dispersion is the same) that would lead to preference of always be in-out or out-in

[aramirez24]

Great thread. I did the same thing with my launch monitor chasing a neutral path. I really want to play a fade with my irons but I just can't get the right face/path control to play it consistently. I've been playing some good golf between 1-4 in to out. A lot more confidence aiming at greens knowing it's going to move left or go straight. 

[MattC555]

I have a fairly neutral swing path, especially with wedges.  I like lining up square to and seeing my target out of my peripheral.  Too much out to in and I lose distance.  Too much in to out and I have trouble controlling the club face resulting in a larger dispersion.  Honestly never gave it a ton of thought, just what has naturally worked for me.   

[phizzy30]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:01 AM, getitdaily said:

I'm not a fan of neutral path unless you consistently deliver ftp that delivers a 1 direction ballflight. 

 

If you get both open and closed to path and your path is 0 then I'm a fan of figuring out how to consistently hit it in 1 pattern and take path mostly out of the equation. 

 

Be careful tho...path of 4-5 in either direction is on the edge of extreme. 

For someone who was 8* in to out as a kid growing up, I'd kill to have a neutral swing path.  I've gotten it to 2-4* in to out by overhauling my swing which was the hardest thing I've had to do golf wise, however, it was well worth the effort and time.  Wouldn't a neutral path have the straightest flight though provided the face angle isn't more than 1-2* open/closed? 

Edited February 8 by phizzy30

[MonteScheinblum]

My experience on the less tee.

 

0 is no bueno always.  Jim Furyk exception noted.

 

Over 5 - or + is a problem for most.  Rory and probably Bruce Lietski exceptions noted.

 

-1 or +1 is too close to zero

 

2 to 3 is ideal and 3 to 5 is usually playable.

 

AoA contribution….ie swing direction is a factor when people curve it too much.

 

0 AOA and 5 in to out is often a problem.

 

-7 AOA on a 7 iron and 5 into out, not so much depending on how it’s done.

[Nels55]

On 2/7/2024 at 8:28 AM, GungHoGolf said:

 

I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here. I spend a lot of time on Trackman and I like to be within 1° of a neutral path. It’s just what works best for me, as someone who naturally had an OTT move, overcorrected that into big pushes/hooks, and now am in my happy place.

 

Big two-way misses happen more with big inside or outside paths – the dreaded double-cross when you come into it with a face square to path or worse.

 

Maybe you’re getting more consistent with face control because you’re taking lessons and improving your swing. Having the face 1° open or closed to ideal will cause the same magnitude of miss regardless of path.

 

A whole lot of pros hit very straight shots that maybe move a yard or two. And I think it’s easier to fade or draw as needed if your baseline is neutral.

Mike Adams says that zero point anything is zero and I find that if I can produce zeros on path and face angle I am always happy with the direction of the shot.  Shot shape is definitely a matter of personal preference and I have played "well" at times with an outside in path fading the ball and an inside out path drawing it.  LOL I have also spent a lot of time lookin for snap hooked shots where I got the face closed with the inside out path.  Also leaving the face open to the target with outside in path means a long day of slicing the ball.

[Jtgavigan]

This is a great discussion and nice to hear good teachers chime in. 

 

To me, face control is critical also and for me, is the more critical variable I personally need to control. I have struggled with that for a long time, and now I believe mostly because of my too strong grip (thanks Mike Adams for showing me this).

 

If I am consistently swinging 2-3° in to out, but my face to path is +/-2° relative to path, that is also "no bueno" (to steal from Monte).

 

I have tended to hit the ball pretty straight most of my 40+ years when playing well, but trying to play a draw now. I was targeting 2-3° ironically, not because anyone told me, but just that it seemed manageable. 

 

I have to be really vigilant with my right hand grip or the two way miss creeps in. Two weeks ago, I shot 76 with 3 water balls. I missed waaay right with a 4 iron, overcooked a draw with driver, and hit a snapper trying to hammer one on the par 5 18th. Got out of sequence. 

 

As I was practicing following that, my grip had crept by from "side/cover" to "side on" or a hair stronger. My path has been pretty good. Face control, eh...

 

Great discussion here. 

[ChaosTheory]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Mike Adams says that zero point anything is zero and I find that if I can produce zeros on path and face angle I am always happy with the direction of the shot.

I play with dozens of 55+ guys who are in the top 20% of golfers who keep USGA handicaps.  That’s 9.9 and under.  From our tees the average scores of these golfers are about 74 to 82.  Compared to all golfers including those who don’t keep handicaps, they are a much better fraction yet.   Most are not elite golfers, but are certainly good by any reasonable definition.  

 

Almost all of them play a straight ball as the stock shot.  Maybe 1 of 8 or 10 play a draw.  I’m trying to think of one who plays a fade.

 

There have been periods where I played a fade because it was easier than fixing it, and I scored well during those stretches.  I could see the attraction.   But ultimately I find it easier to live around zero.  And I bet that’s true of a lot of golfers.

Edited February 9 by ChaosTheory

[collje26]

3 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

My experience on the less tee.

 

0 is no bueno always.  Jim Furyk exception noted.

 

Over 5 - or + is a problem for most.  Rory and probably Bruce Lietski exceptions noted.

 

-1 or +1 is too close to zero

 

2 to 3 is ideal and 3 to 5 is usually playable.

 

AoA contribution….ie swing direction is a factor when people curve it too much.

 

0 AOA and 5 in to out is often a problem.

 

-7 AOA on a 7 iron and 5 into out, not so much depending on how it’s done.

Thanks Monte! Always great to have insight from a teacher, I think technology is a good tool to use but a blend of instruction and technology is what I prefer.