Players walking ahead to look at the hole

[Dutch1008]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Golf is scheduled to 6pm eastern for almost every tournament. The number that finish in the dark is small. A weather delay is a weather delay and 15 mins less of play time before the delay isn’t going to change the outcome.

 

As mentioned pace of play isn’t an issue for the viewer because you aren’t watching the same group all day but cut away shots to other golfers, cutting to a rules decision or some kind of intriguing situation for a golfer, a replay of a putt or a shot.

 

Nobody is forced to spend 5-6 hours watching golf.

 

Nobody is forced to do anything but if I want to tune in to watch the leaders play the final round, it'd be nice to know that I'm signing up for 4 hours sans a playoff. There is no reason to stretch it to 5. It's completely unnecessary. If I want more than that, I can always turn into early coverage on GC, Peacock, or ESPN+. 

[Dutch1008]

43 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Was going to make this point. There's a fundamental difference between MLB and professional golf broadcasts. All team sports - MLB, NFL, NBA, NFL and etc. - have a specific thing that is being broadcast: A "game". Time matters, because you pretty much have to broadcast games in their entirety. It is required by media contracts. (No network is going to start a MLB broadcast in the fifth inning, or stop an NFL broadcast halfway through the fourth quarter - that's just not how it works). 

 

Golf is entirely different. A golf broadcast is simply a set period of time. A PGAT tournament day will have 150 players or so on Thursday/Friday, and 70 or so on Saturday/Sunday. They start first thing in the morning, and often go until late afternoon. The norm is for quite a bit less than half of the full day to be covered on TGC or network TV. There's a specific time slot, and whoever happens to be playing during that window is who viewers see. And there are multiple cameras doing coverage, both fixed and roaming. So "slow" play is going to have absolutely zero effect on how much golf a viewer is going to watch within the window of that three or four hour time slot. There are always golfers all over the course hitting shots, and broadcasters have gotten very good at switching between cameras. Only problem might come in on the final day, when a tourney runs over (due to a playoff or something), but the networks almost always extend the window and just delay the evening news (or whatever).

 

So speeding up a baseball game does mean that the time it takes to watch a game on TV (or see it in the stands) is going to be shorter. But speeding up PoP in golf would do nothing. The three or four hour broadcast window would be the same, you'd see the same amount of golf on TV, and the on course spectators are going to be there long before broadcasting begins. A PGAT tournament day is not a "game", it is 150 individual games, played over the course of an entire day. 

 

And they used to only broadcast the back 9 at the Masters so what's your point? Things change and evolve. The commercial product outside of the majors and the players is pretty damn terrible. They have an excess commercial load, primarily only follow the final few groups, waste time showing players stalk putts for minutes on end. We should get just as much action w/ an hour less commitment. That extra hour isn't getting us more golf, only more commercials, more puff pieces, more CEO interviews.  

[GoGoErky]

43 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Nobody is forced to do anything but if I want to tune in to watch the leaders play the final round, it'd be nice to know that I'm signing up for 4 hours sans a playoff. There is no reason to stretch it to 5. It's completely unnecessary. If I want more than that, I can always turn into early coverage on GC, Peacock, or ESPN+. 

You don’t have to tune it for 5. Tune in for the last 4. But you aren’t going to only watch the leaders for that time you are going to get other shots as well. 
 

The broadcast is running til whatever the allotted time is. So you’re going to be watching til that time no matter what. 

Edited April 1 by GoGoErky

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

You don’t have to tune it for 5. Tune in for the last 4. But you aren’t going to only watch the leaders for that time you are going to get other shots as well. 

Or sign up for ESPN+ and the featured group is typically the leaders on Sunday.  @Dutch1008 can watch just the leaders to his hearts content.

[GoGoErky]

Just now, Shilgy said:

Or sign up for ESPN+ and the featured group is typically the leaders on Sunday.  @Dutch1008 can watch just the leaders to his hearts content.

Wonder how he will feel when his beloved rollback comes into play and it takes even longer 😃

[Shilgy]

Just now, GoGoErky said:

Wonder how he will feel when his beloved rollback comes into play and it takes even longer 😃

But but but surely they will go back to the old classic 6500 yard courses.😏

[Dutch1008]

3 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Wonder how he will feel when his beloved rollback comes into play and it takes even longer 😃

 

I'll be celebrating as the truly talented will further separate from the ball speed frauds. The final groups will be chock full of the truly talented. 

 

And a rollback wont slow pace of play. If anything it will speed it up. Fewer people waiting for the green to clear on a par 5 😛  

[Dutch1008]

12 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

You don’t have to tune it for 5. Tune in for the last 4. But you aren’t going to only watch the leaders for that time you are going to get other shots as well. 
 

The broadcast is running til whatever the allotted time is. So you’re going to be watching til that time no matter what. 

 

It's not that hard to comprehend. I want to watch the final group play 18 holes in 4 hours. This is easily doable. Instead it takes 5 hours because nobody wants to put Patrick Cantlay on the clock and NBC wants to serve you 60 more minutes of boner pill commercials. 

[tatertot]

6 hours ago, gvogel said:

While you are correct, it can be a leisurely game; I think that most good players would prefer the game to be played at leisurely brisk pace, not a snail's pace.  Over 5 hours for a round of golf is too long.

Over 5 hours? I played 36 holes in just over 3 hours today ... Shot 70-68.

[goaliedad30]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I was watching but don’t recall….was the group in front of him behind?  Or were they waiting as well?  I don’t recall any group being out of position yesterday.

The reason for the long delays on the finishing holes Sunday was the configuration of the golf course, combined with as many players with a legitimate chance to win as I've seen in a long time.

 

16 was a very short, reachable par 5, so everyone is waiting there as long as one person in the group kept their tee shot in play. 17 was set up as a driveable par 4, with the entire field needing to wait on the tee. 

 

That led to long waits by the time the leaders rolled around, and with perhaps 6-10 players all with real chances to win, no one was going to rush. For a while, I was wondering f we might see a 6 or 7 man playoff!

[bobfoster]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

And they used to only broadcast the back 9 at the Masters so what's your point? Things change and evolve. The commercial product outside of the majors and the players is pretty damn terrible. They have an excess commercial load, primarily only follow the final few groups, waste time showing players stalk putts for minutes on end. We should get just as much action w/ an hour less commitment. That extra hour isn't getting us more golf, only more commercials, more puff pieces, more CEO interviews.  

Um - my point was in response to a specific post - that was equating PoP in the MLB to that of golf. Had nothing to what you are talking about here. I personally don't really see the primary goal of golf broadcasting to be compressing coverage to pack the same "action" into less time. You want that, go to LIV. It was designed for "action packed", Don't Blink^TM coverage. 

 

Yes, things change and evolve, IMO much for the better. I've been a golf fan for over 50 years, and the last decade or so has been absolute heaven relative to the past. For many years all you saw was on network TV (cable didn't even exist, let alone streaming), and it was mostly just parts of the majors. More and more tourneys started being covered in the 80s and 90s. Then in 95 TGC started - though it took awhile before it was widely available from all cable operators, and took awhile for its coverage to expand. 

 

From my perspective, over the course of a lifetime of being a golfer, and a golf fan, I've gone from being able to watch it on TV maybe three or four times a year, to the current state - where on nearly every Thursday - Sunday during the season, through the combination of TGC and network TV (i.e., not even buying ESPN+ or anything), I can not only watch the PGAT, but often the DPT in the morning, parts of the LPGAT (that I love watching) and the Champions. As well as extended coverage of the majors, the RC and PC, and now and then even get to see amateur and KFT tourneys.

 

You clearly think golf broadcasting, with few exceptions, is horrible. Cool. No one is forced to watch. From my perspective as a long time golf fan however, we are currently living with almost an embarrassment of riches. There's literally far more golf on than I'd ever be able to watch. Had you told me, when I first started getting into golf, that we'd have the options we have today, it would have been completely inconceivable. 

 

If you want to get an idea in your head of what golfing, and golf broadcasting should be, and then find endless things to complain about because it doesn't comply with your image of what it ought to be, no one is stopping you. My view is that all those things you mention are merely minor irritations, and a very small price to pay for being able to have access to more golf than I can possibly watch. 

Edited April 2 by bobfoster

[Dutch1008]

3 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

You clearly think golf broadcasting, with few exceptions, is horrible. Cool. No one is forced to watch. From my perspective as a long time golf fan however, we are currently living with almost an embarrassment of riches. There's literally far more golf on than I'd ever be able to watch. Had you told me, when I first started getting into golf, that we'd have the options we have today, it would have been completely inconceivable. 

 

Very fair point. However, I'd argue that more isn't necessarily better and would point back to MLB as proof of concept. I'm not looking for the PGAT to emulate LIV. That's golf for the ADD generation. No thank you. But as my man JK Simmons can attest, there is a difference between rushing and dragging. Watching a baseball game in 2024 doesn't feel rushed. It just no longer feels like it drags. 

 

[Nickb333]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

When did I say anything about players making a decision to play signature events? 

 

Golf isn't baseball. But both share an older demographic and have historically struggled to attract a younger audience. Baseball made some bold decisions in hopes of delivering a more attractive product to fans. Early returns have been hugely promising. The tour can choose to innovate or continue to stagnate. Tiger 2.0 isn't walking through that door any time soon. 

Not sure how this fits in but I agree with you. 
 

I used to love going to a baseball game as often as possible. We quit going when park’s decided to fill every second of non action with loud music, lights and a whole bunch of other nonsense. You could hardly talk to your buddies. They wrecked the entire experience for me. 
 

Faster games might bring me back. There’s less downtime for the monkeys in charge to fill with distractions. 
 

I’d certainly like to see golf speed up play vs adding music and such to pump up patronage or viewing. 

[bcjim]

39 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

It's not that hard to comprehend. I want to watch the final group play 18 holes in 4 hours. This is easily doable. Instead it takes 5 hours because nobody wants to put Patrick Cantlay on the clock and NBC wants to serve you 60 more minutes of boner pill commercials. 

Good is not the enemy of perfect. 

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

But but but surely they will go back to the old classic 6500 yard courses.😏

Not a snowball's chance in hell..... 🤣

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

It's not that hard to comprehend. I want to watch the final group play 18 holes in 4 hours. This is easily doable. Instead it takes 5 hours because nobody wants to put Patrick Cantlay on the clock and NBC wants to serve you 60 more minutes of boner pill commercials. 

I understand you want a a round on tv to be 4 hours but the tour and the networks don’t care, they have an alloted time to show golf shots. That time isn’t going to be reduced. It’s not financially beneficial. Even if they put cantlay on the clock it wouldn’t save anytime, and even before he got out on the clock he would get back on pace, then rinse and repeat. It takes a lot of to

get out on the clock.

 

tv golf is going to be 5-6 hours of coverage regardless what the minority of viewers want 

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Nobody is forced to do anything but if I want to tune in to watch the leaders play the final round, it'd be nice to know that I'm signing up for 4 hours sans a playoff. There is no reason to stretch it to 5. It's completely unnecessary. If I want more than that, I can always turn into early coverage on GC, Peacock, or ESPN+. 

LOL, then watch the last 4 hours and you might miss a few holes, not a big deal. Lucky to see the last 9 holes when I was younger. It takes the time it takes, don’t see it changing much. 

[Nickb333]

When I was a kid…

[Pops99]

12 hours ago, subrew said:

 

 

Until the PGAT actually follows the pace-of-play rules, nothing will ever be done.  The rules already clearly outline that the first player to reach their ball gets 50 seconds, subsequent players get 40 seconds.  That time includes marking off distances, selecting clubs, practice swings etc., and would include exactly what the OP mentions.  If the players wants to slow stroll up the green and take a peak, fine, but they should be on the clock.  But the Tour never actually enforces these times.

 

Instead they often publish/give players a target time for each hole.  So 14 minutes to complete a Par 3, 16m for a Par 4, 18m for a Par 5.  However they spend their time is up to them.  Some players are very fast and spend 10-15 seconds over the ball.  That can give them extra time for other stuff.  Others like Cantlay will walk up to their ball, and stand next to it for 2-3 minutes while they walk off distance, discuss club choices etc.  So when the camera is focused on him, it looks like he is clearly violating the pace of play rules, but if he finishes the entire hole in the allotted time, he's good.   He just looks incredibly slow every time the camera is on him. 

 

DJ is notorious for being slow on the greens, he and his brother walk around the hole in all directions and will take 2-3 minutes for long putts.  But he takes about 8 seconds to hit tee and approach shots, so he makes up for it.

 

I saw just a couple days ago that the TGL league will be implementing a 40 second shot clock, with loss of stroke if a player exceeds that.

 

I think it would be great if a single PGAT event, perhaps with a "fast paced sponsor" full-on met the 50s/40s rule.  Make it very clear they are trying something out, we're following pace of play.  There will be a time keep with each group.  You're given X warnings before penalty points are assessed.  Give players a few 3-minute "timeouts" when they are standing over incredibly tricky shots.  But let's see what a broadcast looks like when pace of play rules are actually upheld.

I absolutely loved when the DP Tour had their shot-clock tournament. Golf carts in every group that had a big shotclock counting down for the player when it was their turn to hit. Sucks we haven't seen that happen again. 

[m d g]

22 hours ago, st1800e said:

Many tournaments I’ve played in it’s against the rules to “go ahead” to look at the hole. That’s what practice rounds are for.  

 

Then put them on the clock if they slow down play.

 

It was apparently not against the rules in this tournament.

[Chunkitgood]

Every player should have an implant in his brain, and every tv set a monitor of the viewers’ eye movements.  When viewer aggregate eye movement shows insufficient interest in the match, the players get a jolt of pain.

 

Or viewers could grow up and not look for continuous and unending gratification, and be satisfied with watching the game being played more or less in the way the best in the world play it, something approximating reality.

[rgk5]

On 3/31/2024 at 6:15 PM, gvogel said:

Watching Scottie Schefler and one other walking way ahead of their balls in the fairway to look at the exact hole location.  I cry bogus.  A player has an allotted amount of time to play his shot - that should not include walking up to the green and back.  Stroke penalty in my book.

 

If you want to know the exact pin location on a green, go out before your round and look at it then.

Not allowed in match play.

Edited April 2 by rgk5

[tatertot]

8 minutes ago, rgk5 said:

Not allowed in match play.

Not a lot of match play on the PGA Tour.

[Hawkeye77]

13 hours ago, Pops99 said:

I absolutely loved when the DP Tour had their shot-clock tournament. Golf carts in every group that had a big shotclock counting down for the player when it was their turn to hit. Sucks we haven't seen that happen again. 

It was a clown show and distraction, lol.  There's a reason you haven't seen it again.

[Titleist99]

17 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Or sign up for ESPN+ and the featured group is typically the leaders on Sunday.  @Dutch1008 can watch just the leaders to his hearts content.

Yep, that's why it was invented......

 

Consumers can customize their viewing experience.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, rgk5 said:

Not allowed in match play.

 

Absent a prohibition in effect for the event, you can generally practice on a course before a match subject to match play rules.

 

Not aware of anything in the ROG that prevents a player seeing where pins are located in match play - "close your eyes, don't look at the 9th or 18th greens while getting out of your car."

 

Edited April 2 by Hawkeye77

[Dutch1008]

16 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

I understand you want a a round on tv to be 4 hours but the tour and the networks don’t care, they have an alloted time to show golf shots. That time isn’t going to be reduced. It’s not financially beneficial. Even if they put cantlay on the clock it wouldn’t save anytime, and even before he got out on the clock he would get back on pace, then rinse and repeat. It takes a lot of to

get out on the clock.

 

tv golf is going to be 5-6 hours of coverage regardless what the minority of viewers want 

 

Bud, we're not speaking the same language. I don't care if CBS has a 4 hour window or an 8 hour window. I care about the quality of coverage, not the quantity. If you enjoy the current TV product, by all means, carry on. 

[Dutch1008]

17 hours ago, bcjim said:

Good is not the enemy of perfect. 

 Outside of the majors and the Players Championship, you think the current TV product is good? 

 

Perfect would be Premier League Soccer or F1. Completely uninterrupted game time. I know that isn't reasonable for golf. Or football, baseball, basketball for that matter. But I think there is a pretty big gap between perfect, good, what we currently get which I would charitably describe as passable.  

[rgk5]

4 hours ago, tatertot said:

Not a lot of match play on the PGA Tour.

None this year that I know of now that the Dell is gone.

[st1800e]

20 hours ago, m d g said:

 

Then put them on the clock if they slow down play.

 

It was apparently not against the rules in this tournament.

Really?   Didn’t know that.