Don't move.

[Nels55]

Do you understand what Martin Ayers is saying?  I have no idea...

 

[vman]

Yes, he’s saying don’t move use motion…..move in one direction. Use the hands in a bicycle motion to gain an understanding plus go somewhere whilst remaining where you are.

Hope that clears it all up.😉

[TheDeanAbides]

That was a blast from the past. I had some online lessons with Martin a decade ago - he’s a great guy and reminds me a lot of Monte with his passion for helping us mortals. 
 

I think his teaching does sound esoteric because it’s hard for us to get past the idea of a downswing following a backswing. Essentially, it’s about creating leverage throughout the swing motion. The feeling at the top with Martin’s inner reverse rotational concepts feels so different, and it makes transition automatic, but I found it hard to make the driver work. 
 

My irons were stellar though - just automatic. 

[i*windows]

I remember using his crossbow swing method which used to be pinned here, I struck my irons really well.

 

I think that all golfers would be better if the internet didnt exist

[TheDeanAbides]

5 minutes ago, i*windows said:

I remember using his crossbow swing method which used to be pinned here, I struck my irons really well.

 

I think that all golfers would be better if the internet didnt exist

Then we’d be at the mercy of the magazine tips, hackers on the range, or whatever standard the local pros are at.

 

 The internet is like any other tool: to make the most of it you need discernment and to know how to learn effectively. 

[phizzy30]

4 hours ago, vman said:

Yes, he’s saying don’t move use motion…..move in one direction. Use the hands in a bicycle motion to gain an understanding plus go somewhere whilst remaining where you are.

Hope that clears it all up.😉

Sounds like something Confucius would say.  You definitely got your intention across, lol. 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, i*windows said:

I remember using his crossbow swing method which used to be pinned here, I struck my irons really well.

 

I think that all golfers would be better if the internet didnt exist

Haha, I wouldn’t have met Monte and would still be a 13. 

[jonsnow]

2 hours ago, i*windows said:

I remember using his crossbow swing method which used to be pinned here, I struck my irons really well.

 

I think that all golfers would be better if the internet didnt exist

H.L. Mencken once said "A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant and the crazy crazier." I think that applies to the internet as well.

 

Yet here I am... 

[DShepley]

The Zen philosopher, Basho, once wrote, 'A flute with no holes, is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a Danish.' 

 

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

The only way that I can make sense of what Ayers is saying is to assume that he is referring to no ABRUPT changes of direction. A circular path at a constant angular velocity is a constant change in direction (based on how I use the word and how physics would describe things). 

 

dave

[Golf_Goof]

 

I understand it generally - it feels more a like figure 8 or elliptical path than up and down on the same plane line.

 

The trial-side hit part at the end with Champ is a bit confusing though - or at least defies some current swing orthodoxy. 

Edited April 24 by Golf_Goof

[KD1]

17 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

The only way that I can make sense of what Ayers is saying is to assume that he is referring to no ABRUPT changes of direction.

 

Yeah, that was about all I could decipher. He said somewhere in there something along the lines of the swing is elliptical, some are more narrow than others but they're all elliptical...  That much seems obvious though so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with this information.

 

Edited April 24 by KD1
spelling hard

[Hilts1969]

8 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Do you understand what Martin Ayers is saying?  I have no idea...

 

 

Meh there will be another magic move soon I can safely predict I needn't watch this one.

[jonsnow]

Didn't Martin have the bow to crossbow thread that stayed pinned here for a long time? 

[xabia]

this really resonates with me currently - I am stuck trying to do too many things which leads to excessive effort and dramatic attempts to change direction to achieve certain things.

I move all around like an whacky wavy inflatable doll when I am overthinking it

 

 

The secret is how the heck to do it - which this doesn't really touch on at all and can't possibly be distilled down to simple things. 

[Primo1868]

Best part of this video was the sip of beer he took a few minutes in. I knew I was in for a wild ride after that.

[Deadaimz]

6 hours ago, Golf_Goof said:

 

I understand it generally - it feels more a like figure 8 or elliptical path than up and down on the same plane line.

 

The trial-side hit part at the end with Champ is a bit confusing though - or at least defies some current swing orthodoxy. 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0C3vzFrzew?si=XxY7dOnmVXvypv2u

 

 

http://youtu.be/P5C930A8Y9I?si=riyCZ9Bi-MC_wUnn

 

 

AMG has similar videos on the trail arm in one of their videos.

Edited April 24 by Deadaimz
Added vid

[Nels55]

Another BBG video:

I don't have the slightest clue what Martin is talking about...  Halley's comet will be back in 2061 though!

[virtuoso]

Without getting too critical specifically about Ayers, this is a thing that happens:

 

Good player that develops a motor pattern after making hundreds of thousands of swings over many, many years stumbles upon an idea that lets him finally get out of his own way and leave his contrived mechanical mindset. It just suddenly seems so much more free, natural and simple...so effortless...compared to "giving birth" to a golf swing before.

 

He runs to the masses and explains this new mindset...and it seems so fresh and authentic (there must be something to it--after all, the guy is really good)...it seems so within reach for all of us......we just have to change the way we think about things...

 

...and then someone without the motor pattern tries this new thing....and tops the ball.

 

Moral of the story: even the best ideas leave 98% of the hard work unfinished.

Edited April 24 by virtuoso

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Without getting too critical specifically about Ayers, this is a thing that happens:

 

Good player that develops a motor pattern after making hundreds of thousands of swings over many, many years stumbles upon an idea that lets him finally get out of his own way and leave his contrived mechanical mindset. It just suddenly seems so much more free, natural and simple...so effortless...compared to "giving birth" to a golf swing before.

 

He runs to the masses and explains this new mindset...and it seems so fresh and authentic (there must be something to it--after all, the guy is really good)...it seems so within reach for all of us......we just have to change the way we think about things...

 

...and then someone without the motor pattern tries this new thing....and tops the ball.

 

Moral of the story: even the best ideas leave 98% of the hard work unfinished.

That seems pretty accurate.  I have heard similar stories for instance sometimes it's; "Forget all that stuff and just swing the clubhead".  It's funny how none of these guys at least that I know of have ever done well competitively with whatever they are selling.

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

That seems pretty accurate.  I have heard similar stories for instance sometimes it's; "Forget all that stuff and just swing the clubhead".  It's funny how none of these guys at least that I know of have ever done well competitively with whatever they are selling.

There's an old saying that's mostly true.  "Those that can't do, teach."  Then there are those like Monte that can do both but they tend to be few and far in between. 

[Deadaimz]

Martin Ayers vs John Erickson, would be an entertaining match. While at it let Monte in as well. Must see wrx yt content. Maybe add Dan Carraher, Slicefixer to the mic as well? I'd pay to see that! 

Edited April 25 by Deadaimz
Thoughts

[KD1]

I figured it out... He's The Sphinx from the movie Mystery Men!

 

"The swing has ended when it has already begun"

 

"He who questions training only trains himself at asking questions."

[virtuoso]

14 minutes ago, KD1 said:

I figured it out... He's The Sphinx from the movie Mystery Men!

 

"The swing has ended when it has already begun"

 

"He who questions training only trains himself at asking questions."

No, no, Righty to Lefty is the Sphinx. I’ve discussed it in detail.

[KD1]

35 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

No, no, Righty to Lefty is the Sphinx. I’ve discussed it in detail.

Ah. okay, he must be the DC version then.

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

Ah. okay, he must be the DC version then.

Bingo.

[TheDeanAbides]

10 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Without getting too critical specifically about Ayers, this is a thing that happens:

 

Good player that develops a motor pattern after making hundreds of thousands of swings over many, many years stumbles upon an idea that lets him finally get out of his own way and leave his contrived mechanical mindset. It just suddenly seems so much more free, natural and simple...so effortless...compared to "giving birth" to a golf swing before.

 

He runs to the masses and explains this new mindset...and it seems so fresh and authentic (there must be something to it--after all, the guy is really good)...it seems so within reach for all of us......we just have to change the way we think about things...

 

...and then someone without the motor pattern tries this new thing....and tops the ball.

 

Moral of the story: even the best ideas leave 98% of the hard work unfinished.

Yes, this. Martin is a great guy, but his ideas just don’t communicate well enough for the average player. 
 

I’d take Monte and his clear, direct and unambiguous teachings every day. 

[Golf_Goof]

22 hours ago, Deadaimz said:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0C3vzFrzew?si=XxY7dOnmVXvypv2u

 

 

http://youtu.be/P5C930A8Y9I?si=riyCZ9Bi-MC_wUnn

 

 

AMG has similar videos on the trail arm in one of their videos.

 

Yeesh - that second video. 

 

Again, chasing that position in 2d view seems to result more often than not in hands/arms trailing the hips badly. This place is full of examples.  

 

ETA: I found the AMG video and that makes more sense. Good sense actually. 

Edited April 25 by Golf_Goof

[DShepley]

It's all very hard to follow.  Turning the wheel left to initiate the backswing I can buy into and that is the classic, trail arm above lead arm position that you see the pros do, (a lot of amateurs turn the wheel right and the club gets behind them to start the backswing).  Where he loses me is that you can't keep going, the turn left physically runs out of range of motion.  What I can buy into is that the clubhead, relative to the person holding it, moves only in one direction, (clockwise).  If you keep the clockwise motion going, you will turn the wheel to the right at the top of the swing, which is the classic look of leading with the trail elbow, this drops the clubhead behind the hands and shallows it.  So...I interpret his 'One Direction' bit as the clubhead, relative to the player, moves only in one direction which is clockwise.  He showed how by turning the wheel to the left, the body will turn right, (backswing), and by turning the wheel right, the body will turn left, (downswing).  He is saying to let the body follow the club to transfer to the downswing, which I assume means he isn't actively changing a direction but rather feeling like the club continuing in the clockwise path creates the wheel turning to the right.

 

I could be totally out to lunch and not understand any of it as his communication is undecipherable except to JH who claims he understands and can 'feel' it but I have my doubts.  On the surface it looks like Martin has stumbled onto the steep to shallow pattern and his feel in transition is 'passive' and not 'active'.  (From these forums we all know the reality behind 'passive' and 'active').  Think of this as a blend of 'Gankas, Milo, Clay Ballard (think clockwise), with the feels of Manuel de la Torre. (that's my take).  Now...don't get me wrong, there is some good in there, specifically in my view, the sensation of turning the wheel left to start the backswing and right to start the downswing though the latter has to be done in posture so that you don't flip into early right side bend, (the clubhead needs to feel like it falls behind you). 

[TheDeanAbides]

You have to think of Martin’s teaching in terms of internal forces and leverage. He’s all about creating strong opposing forces in the musculature that store and then release energy, but it’s tough to understand what he’s saying with the one direction stuff.