GI & SGI irons OEM integrity issue

[radiman]

I don't disagree that loft jacking is a real thing.  I do give some credence to the OEM side of things when they say that they have to lower the loft to accommodate the CG.  I believe that it has to be done to some degree to keep the ball from ballooning.  

But, I do think that it's overdone to an extent.  That there is a low hanging fruit to be had in the marketing of their clubs when they can beat out someone's existing set on the launch monitor or a fitting.  How many average players will thumb their nose over hitting a club 10+ yards further?  

Then there is the concept that a lot of people need the lower loft.  Either as a means to manage spin or just to get their dynamic loft in a better window. 

 

Long story short.  If their 7 iron now goes as far as their old 5 or 6, then hit the 7 from that distance.  If the 5 iron is the same loft as their old 3 iron.  Well, then don't buy a 3 or 4 iron in their new set?  I don't know.  It's pretty simple.  Especially if a guy is going to judge the entire industry based on the lofts of their irons.  You're already aware of what the lofts are.  Order based on that.  If it's a 5-GW set instead of a 3-PW then so be it.  If it's 6-GW, then add a few more wedges to make up for it.  It's not rocket science. 

[Nessism]

Just now, radiman said:

I don't disagree that loft jacking is a real thing.  I do give some credence to the OEM side of things when they say that they have to lower the loft to accommodate the CG.  I believe that it has to be done to some degree to keep the ball from ballooning.  
 

 

If you look at Maltby's club head data, you will learn that clubs like Ping's have a sky-high CG.  The reason those clubs hit the ball high has nothing to do with the CG.

[Mcfly]

Earlier I referenced strong lofted Ping 4 irons.  My bad.  The new G730 series doesn’t have a loft jacked 4 iron. They don’t even offer a G730 4 iron.  They have a 20 degree 5 iron.  And a “U” wedge between the PW and the 50*.  Unless you’re a really solid stick (in which case you are likely not a G730 buyer) or unless you’re one of the previous respondents to this topic, a 20* five iron, even with a low CG and extreme perimeter weighting is likely not a wise choice.  

[mjf34g]

3 hours ago, Long_Left said:

Well then, just keep hitting that low 4 and 5 iron I guess, good luck to you and whomever you share your life with.

Like I said earlier he's revealed that it is an ego issue. 

[mgoblue83]

It’s just ego.

 

Guys in the market for those clubs do NOT want to be the guy who can only hit 7i 130yds and are perfectly happy hitting it 160yds even if it’s actually a 5i with a 7 stamped on the bottom.

[North Butte]

24 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

It’s just ego.

 

Guys in the market for those clubs do NOT want to be the guy who can only hit 7i 130yds and are perfectly happy hitting it 160yds even if it’s actually a 5i with a 7 stamped on the bottom.

You realize "guys in the market for these clubs" means roughly 98% of all golfers. The number of hard-a** blade wielding weak lofted he-men out there is barely a blip on the marketing stats. But they are louder'n heck online for sure!

[radiman]

I just thought of this. But some OEMs are making high launch versions of their sgi irons with weaker lofts. So there is some level of compromise there. 

[mgoblue83]

27 minutes ago, North Butte said:

You realize "guys in the market for these clubs" means roughly 98% of all golfers. The number of hard-a** blade wielding weak lofted he-men out there is barely a blip on the marketing stats. But they are louder'n heck online for sure!

Disagree. I’m not sure if companies make the data public but I would guess that a company like Titleist is selling significantly more T100-200 than T300-400.

[boggyman]

55 minutes ago, radiman said:

I just thought of this. But some OEMs are making high launch versions of their sgi irons with weaker lofts. So there is some level of compromise there. 

Yes but the shafts are wayyyy too long for the mere mortals, unless you’re properly fitted. I do like the idea that they’re doing this with the weaker lofts though. 

[boggyman]

8 hours ago, vandyfan said:

 

The shaft is shorter and the irons launch higher with lower CG relative to their stated loft (they also tend to spin less), at least in my experience. My peak height with a P790 7 iron at 30.5* was the same as my Ben Hogan PTxPro at 34*, it just went about 15 yds farther and spun less. 

 

Not all things are equal here and I would argue that while loft helps, the length of the shaft helps as well for center face contact. Matt Blois at Golf Liberty (youtube) did an interesting video about the loft question that you are posing here. 

 

 

How much lower can the OEMs get the CG?? They’re always touting how low it is. 

[boggyman]

7 hours ago, Mcfly said:

A friend asked me to play pickle ball last year.  I’m in my mid/late sixties and told him  “thanks but I’m not old enough to play pickle ball.”

Also not old enough to pack a 9 wood.  
I suspect you are an executive with Watt Poultry and have recently acquired a time restricted option in one of the aforementioned OEM club providers….

And what’s wrong with a 9 wood??? I put a new 7 wood in play and contemplating a 9 wood for giggles. I hate hybrids due to my swing. Hook the snot out of them. The 7 wood is a dream. FWIW, I’m exactly mid 50s on the nose!! To each his own!!

[dekez]

I blame the "fitters" for the ridiculous loft creep.  Focusing on distance made sense for the driver.  Less so for irons, but that is easiest for the average Joe to understand.  So then it became this 7 iron (which is a 4 iron) goes farther than that 7 iron.  And here we are.

[North Butte]

For me the focus on an iron "fitting" would need to be optimizing (maximizing) the spin and descent angle of a 150-yard shot. But I don't know of any place to get such a fitting. As opposed to seeing how much ball speed and accuracy you can get out of a 7-iron.

[Springsteennut]

I was struggling with my long irons and utility iron last year. I had hit them fine previously. The irons I had were hard stepped so they were a little stiffer and just weren’t elevating or carrying the same. The 8,9 and PW were still similar. The fitter put me in Project X 5.5. I wasn’t excited about moving to graphite. I am now hitting everything a little higher and longer than last year. This why a fitting can be helpful so you get the shaft works through the whole iron shaft.

[Flyers99]

It took me a while but I don’t care anymore what the number of the club says.  I know my baseline for lowest iron lost is 23 degrees and maybe 22.  I don’t care if that’s a 4, 5 or 6 iron.  I don’t care when somebody has a brand new set and says boy I just hit a 7 iron and you hit a 5 when the lofts are within a degree.  Just shows they don’t know/understand clubs very well.  

[gvogel]

23 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Disagree. I’m not sure if companies make the data public but I would guess that a company like Titleist is selling significantly more T100-200 than T300-400.

You may be right, but that is Titleist.  They generally appeal to a different market segment than golfers who play game improvement clubs.

[gvogel]

On 5/9/2024 at 2:48 PM, Mcfly said:

A friend asked me to play pickle ball last year.  I’m in my mid/late sixties and told him  “thanks but I’m not old enough to play pickle ball.”

Also not old enough to pack a 9 wood.  
I suspect you are an executive with Watt Poultry and have recently acquired a time restricted option in one of the aforementioned OEM club providers….

Mid to late sixties?  Just wait a few years, you'll be "packing" a. 7-wood and 2 or 3 hybrids.  And you will be proud of your bag, because you figured out the right tools for the job at hand.

[Roejye]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

For me the focus on an iron "fitting" would need to be optimizing (maximizing) the spin and descent angle of a 150-yard shot. But I don't know of any place to get such a fitting. As opposed to seeing how much ball speed and accuracy you can get out of a 7-iron.

I know club champion gets a bad rep, and some of it is deserved, but that's what I liked about my fitting. We mainly looked at getting the 6 iron in a specific flight window.

 

As far as this thread, I definitely see the point that @Mcfly is making in regards to the people that are most likely to buy these types of irons are likely not going to be able to hit the 4 and 5 irons like they should. Hell, I'm one of them with my ~24° 5 iron gathering dust because I can hit it well, just not consistently, so I pulled it. However, when I was fitted, I knew my limitations and ordered them 6-AW, and picked up the 5 iron to try a year later. People like me though are probably in the minority. 

 

I think there are multiple reasons why they sell these sets the way they do, one of which being they know most of us has some degree of ego. "I'm not some wimpy weakling! I've always been able to hit a 5 iron, so g dang it, I'm going to use this 5 iron!" Then there's the people with the speed to launch it, but they might deliver too much dynamic loft with a "traditional" 5 iron. Then, there's probably the majority of the people that would use these types of clubs, they don't care how that 5 iron flies, they want something that makes it a little easier to play, and are there to enjoy their time on the course. 

 

I agree that ideally someone that is fit into these types of clubs, or is looking at buying these would be informed of the difficulties of launching these lower lofted irons, but I don't think it's a conspiracy to get people to buy more clubs again and again. Remember us people on golfwrx are a weird breed, most people buy clubs and stick with them for years. Honestly most of the times I've seen newer clubs, particularly irons, it's been box set types. 

[boggyman]

49 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Mid to late sixties?  Just wait a few years, you'll be "packing" a. 7-wood and 2 or 3 hybrids.  And you will be proud of your bag, because you figured out the right tools for the job at hand.

Or he could be like another ole dude on here still “packing” his 2 & 3 irons🤣🤣 isn’t that right @Pepperturbo

[boggyman]

51 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Mid to late sixties?  Just wait a few years, you'll be "packing" a. 7-wood and 2 or 3 hybrids.  And you will be proud of your bag, because you figured out the right tools for the job at hand.

But why wait? 😁

[bekgolf]

52 minutes ago, Roejye said:

I know club champion gets a bad rep, and some of it is deserved, but that's what I liked about my fitting. We mainly looked at getting the 6 iron in a specific flight window.

 

As far as this thread, I definitely see the point that @Mcfly is making in regards to the people that are most likely to buy these types of irons are likely not going to be able to hit the 4 and 5 irons like they should. Hell, I'm one of them with my ~24° 5 iron gathering dust because I can hit it well, just not consistently, so I pulled it. However, when I was fitted, I knew my limitations and ordered them 6-AW, and picked up the 5 iron to try a year later. People like me though are probably in the minority. 

 

I think there are multiple reasons why they sell these sets the way they do, one of which being they know most of us has some degree of ego. "I'm not some wimpy weakling! I've always been able to hit a 5 iron, so g dang it, I'm going to use this 5 iron!" Then there's the people with the speed to launch it, but they might deliver too much dynamic loft with a "traditional" 5 iron. Then, there's probably the majority of the people that would use these types of clubs, they don't care how that 5 iron flies, they want something that makes it a little easier to play, and are there to enjoy their time on the course. 

 

I agree that ideally someone that is fit into these types of clubs, or is looking at buying these would be informed of the difficulties of launching these lower lofted irons, but I don't think it's a conspiracy to get people to buy more clubs again and again. Remember us people on golfwrx are a weird breed, most people buy clubs and stick with them for years. Honestly most of the times I've seen newer clubs, particularly irons, it's been box set types. 

 

I want to share something important.  I started thinking about One Length hybrids from Cobra, did some research and they have the LTDx model at blowout pricing right now.

 

I bought a 21* version of this hybrid that has the shaft length of a 7 iron and am blown away.  It goes as far as my 23* 5 iron and it's easy to hit.  It's so easy to hit that I bought the 24* version, it turns out it's really easy to hit, point and shoot.  Since both of those clubs are so awesome I picked up the 19* version at blowout pricing.  Haven't hit the 19* yet and I hope it's not past the limit of a seven iron length shaft times loft.  I swing them in the mid 80's mph.

[ChipNRun]

Many years ago, club designer Tom Wishon started promoting the 24/38 Rule:

 

The average golfer cannot consistently hit an iron...with less than 24* loft...  or

more than 38" shaft length.

 

Menno Zacharias ties the 24/38 rule to conventions for the OEMs in making iron sets.

 

 

Golf is a complex and expensive game. I would suggest that regular golfers who pay attention to industry discussions would be aware of the problem of loft-jacking, especially when it hits the long irons.

 

Here are the loft comparisons between Callaway Mavrik MAX and Mavrik irons. In two bouts of testing, I found that with an R-flex shaft, I could hit the MAX 7i (30*) about 10 yards longer than the Mavrik 7i (27*), even though the MAX higher loft. You just have to compare sets to see which works best for you.

 

Mavrik MAX			Mavrik (Std)
Model	Loft		Model	Loft
4 Iron	20°		4 Iron	18°
5 Iron	23°		5 Iron	21°
6 Iron	26°		6 Iron	24°
7 Iron	30°		7 Iron	27°
8 Iron	34°		8 Iron	31.5°
9 Iron	38°		9 Iron	36°
PW	43°		PW	41°
AW	48°		AW	46°
SW	54°		GW	51°
			SW	56°

 ---------------------------------

Here are some ways to recapture higher lofts, which in turn would make 4i or 5i playable again:

Look at the Ping irons with a Retro Loft option: 5i = 25° | 7i = 32.25° | PW = 47°

 

Look at some of the DTC iron models that have drifted back to more traditional lofts. Sub70 offers the 659.CB irons with 7i = 32° and PW = 45°. And Sub70...

• will let you rent a test pair of irons (6i and 9i) to try out.
• will give you a fitting in Sycamore, IL.

[clinkinfo]

On 5/9/2024 at 2:48 PM, Mcfly said:

A friend asked me to play pickle ball last year.  I’m in my mid/late sixties and told him  “thanks but I’m not old enough to play pickle ball.”

Also not old enough to pack a 9 wood.  
I suspect you are an executive with Watt Poultry and have recently acquired a time restricted option in one of the aforementioned OEM club providers….

 

 

What does age have to do with playing pickle ball?

 

https://www.pickleheads.com/blog/pickleball-statistics

[North Butte]

10 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Many years ago, club designer Tom Wishon started promoting the 24/38 Rule:

 

The average golfer cannot consistently hit an iron...with less than 24* loft...  or

more than 38" shaft length.

 

I've mostly played Titleist and Ping irons over the years. The sets of T350's they sell in the local Dick's Sporting Goods all start with the 5-iron which is 23 degrees of loft and 38" long. The sets of G430's on the rack are also starting with 5-iron which is 22 degrees of loft and 38.25" long.

 

Sounds like even the 2024 models of mainstream, off-the-rack, Big Box store iron sets aren't miles away from Wishon's ideas from two or three decades ago. 

 

I think the main "problem" is that those 22/23/24 degree irons have a 5 on the sole instead of a 3 or 4. Which of course is no problem at all for any normal person. 

 

The first time I ever did a rudimentary "club fitting" was back in the 1990's. It was a guy with a swing speed radar, a lie board, a bucket of range balls and a calibrated eyeball watching me hit shots. We fitted me using various length/lie/shaft 28-degree "5 irons". Lengths ranged from about 36-1/2" to 38" and IIRC correctly my best fit was a length of 37-1/4".

 

If someone goes for a iron fitting today, they'll most likely use all sorts of high tech equipment and a bunch of 28 or 29 degree "7 irons". Lengths will be mostly in the 36's and 37's, not really different than a "5 iron" fitting 30 years ago. My current "7 iron" is 29 degrees and 37" length, almost identical to the "5 iron" of that first fitted set. 

 

Truly, it's just the damned numbers on the sole that have so many grumpy old men shaking their fists at clouds. 

Edited May 11 by North Butte

[Mcfly]

10 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

 

 

What does age have to do with playing pickle ball?

 

https://www.pickleheads.com/blog/pickleball-statistics

Probably nothing.  One day a few years ago, one of our golf group members who played mlb with the Reds asked one of the better players at the club (nationally ranked racquetball player) if he wanted to start playing pickleball.  The reply’ “Ray, I’m not old enough to play pickleball.”  He was about 68 at the time. 

[dekez]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

I've mostly played Titleist and Ping irons over the years. The sets of T350's they sell in the local Dick's Sporting Goods all start with the 5-iron which is 23 degrees of loft and 38" long. The sets of G430's on the rack are also starting with 5-iron which is 22 degrees of loft and 38.25" long.

 

Sounds like even the 2024 models of mainstream, off-the-rack, Big Box store iron sets aren't miles away from Wishon's ideas from two or three decades ago. 

 

I think the main "problem" is that those 22/23/24 degree irons have a 5 on the sole instead of a 3 or 4. Which of course is no problem at all for any normal person. 

 

The first time I ever did a rudimentary "club fitting" was back in the 1990's. It was a guy with a swing speed radar, a lie board, a bucket of range balls and a calibrated eyeball watching me hit shots. We fitted me using various length/lie/shaft 28-degree "5 irons". Lengths ranged from about 36-1/2" to 38" and IIRC correctly my best fit was a length of 37-1/4".

 

If someone goes for a iron fitting today, they'll most likely use all sorts of high tech equipment and a bunch of 28 or 29 degree "7 irons". Lengths will be mostly in the 36's and 37's, not really different than a "5 iron" fitting 30 years ago. My current "7 iron" is 29 degrees and 37" length, almost identical to the "5 iron" of that first fitted set. 

 

Truly, it's just the damned numbers on the sole that have so many grumpy old men shaking their fists at clouds. 

 

I'm one of the guys shaking his fist.  There's more to it than the number on the club.  Another result is uneven loft progressions, 3* separating some irons, then 4*, 5* and even 6* between others.  Just makes for a mess in gapping.  

[North Butte]

Just now, dekez said:

 

I'm one of the guys shaking his fist.  There's more to it than the number on the club.  Another result is uneven loft progressions, 3* separating some irons, then 4*, 5* and even 6* between others.  Just makes for a mess in gapping.  

That's unlucky if it works that way for you. I've always found the Ping and Titleist irons give me 10, 11, 12 yards between clubs with even with the 3, 4, 5 yard loft progressions. But I'm a very short hitter. 

[dekez]

Just now, North Butte said:

That's unlucky if it works that way for you. I've always found the Ping and Titleist irons give me 10, 11, 12 yards between clubs with even with the 3, 4, 5 yard loft progressions. But I'm a very short hitter. 

I have wider yardage gaps between the scoring clubs (exactly the ones I don't wide gaps with) and narrower ones when it gets to 7 and 6.  PITA. 

[Hawkeye77]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:57 AM, Mcfly said:

I think most will agree when it comes to irons, once you get below the 25 degree mark irons become more difficult to hit.  It’s harder to get them airborne and to get any kind of carry distance for slower swing speed players.  These are the same players who comprise the GI/SGI (game improvement/super game improvement) iron market.  When you look at the GI/SGI offerings from Ping, PXG, Callaway, Tour Edge, and every other manufacturer, I honestly believe they intentionally make clubs that players needing GI/SGI clubs can’t hit in hopes they will sell the set they just bought and buy a new set.  The loft of a Ping G730 five iron is now 21.5 degrees!!!  Why would they do that?  So players who can’t hit these ultra low lofted irons will sell the clubs they hoped would help their game and buy new clubs, only to sell those and repeat the cycle over and over.  For example, the 4 iron from most of the most notable OEMs in their SGI line is around 20 degrees. The five is 23 degrees and the six is 26 +/- a degree.  Again, Ping now has a 21.5 degree five iron!!!  They KNOW most players buying 730s can’t hit the five iron (or the six) and they’re fine with that.  Their version of planned obsolescence.  That said, most players in the GI/SGI market don’t get comfortable in their set until they reach the 7 iron.  It makes FAR MORE sense in GI/SGI lines to, begin the five iron at 26 degrees and go 26, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46, ending with a 50 degree gap wedge. If you’re about to say a 26 degree five iron wouldn’t go far enough, go lay down.  Get a hybrid or two for the gap between fairways and irons.  And go ahead and try to make an argument that players using game improvement irons wouldn’t love to have a current model set of irons with four degrees between clubs, five through gap.  The OEMs will NEVER do this since it would result in players actually being much more comfortable with their entire set of irons and keeping them for several seasons instead of becoming frustrated with super low lofted 4, 5, 6, and sometimes even 7 irons that they can’t hit resulting in selling their clubs to buy new ones over and over.  At the end of the day, the OEM club manufacturer doesn’t care any more about you than a car dealer, an insurance agent, or a building contractor.  It’s just another segment of the golf business with only a bare minimum of integrity.  Don’t agree?  You probably sell clubs for a living.

 

Throwing Gi and SGI into the same pot and overgeneralizing who may use them really doesn't set up much in the way of an "argument".

 

Totally disagree that "most" players using GI irons aren't comfortable until that hit a 7i.

 

Disagree that all GI irons are ultra low lofted.

 

Lower lofts have also been designed in many irons these days with higher launch, higher descent angles - actually easier to hit for many folks than the higher lofted irons they had before.

 

Tech has changed and no, it doesn't make sense to start 5 irons at 26 degrees, but . . . buy whatever works for you, set combos are easy to sort out, I know plenty of good golfers that haven't bought a 4 iron with a set in a long time but many good golfers will blend sets and like the "more GI" benefits of lower lofted irons and blend sets whether MB/CB, CB/GI and so forth.

 

Seems like a contrived premise to create a conspiracy that really doesn't exist all that much --- but folks chase distance, try and stop them.

[North Butte]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Throwing Gi and SGI into the same pot and overgeneralizing who may use them really doesn't set up much in the way of an "argument".

 

Totally disagree that "most" players using GI irons aren't comfortable until that hit a 7i.

 

Disagree that all GI irons are ultra low lofted.

 

Lower lofts have also been designed in many irons these days with higher launch, higher descent angles - actually easier to hit for many folks than the higher lofted irons they had before.

 

Tech has changed and no, it doesn't make sense to start 5 irons at 26 degrees, but . . . buy whatever works for you, set combos are easy to sort out, I know plenty of good golfers that haven't bought a 4 iron with a set in a long time but many good golfers will blend sets and like the "more GI" benefits of lower lofted irons and blend sets whether MB/CB, CB/GI and so forth.

 

Seems like a contrived premise to create a conspiracy that really doesn't exist all that much --- but folks chase distance, try and stop them.

Totally contrived. My first set of Titleist irons from a quarter-century ago, bought off the rack, started with a 22-degree "3 iron" that was 38.5" long. Sets of Titleist irons bought off the rack today start with a 23-degree "5 iron" that is 38" long. 

 

Even if you take as read the premise that golfers are being "forced" to buy what's on the rack at Golf Galaxy or whatever, the longest iron they're "forced" to buy is one degree weaker and half an inch shorter (also lighter and with massively improved clubhead performance) than the longest iron they were "forced" to be circa Y2K. Not a very effective conspiracy, there. 

 

It's all just an obsession with the numbers on the soles.