Tiger is lost

[Awsi Dooger]

I spent the past two days watching the matches in casino sportsbooks alongside guys with huge cash riding on the outcomes. Today I didn't have a cent on the Tiger match but several friends had Tiger -135 so I rooted for them. For the first time I noticed what the OP pointed out, how ridiculously bent over Tiger is at address. For hole after hole that's what stood out. My buddies were sweating out every shot but I was stunned at Tiger's posture. I had no idea this thread existed but when I visited this site tonight my intent was to post that observation in the related match play thread.

I was envisioning the Tiger I followed in Las Vegas events early in his career, and more recently at Doral, and this posture is a dramatic departure, seemingly not suited to his height at all. Tiger is hardly 6-4 with a need to bend like that. I'm 6-4. I stood next to Tiger at the old Desert Inn in the late '90s to gauge his height. He's perhaps 6-1.

I also agree with the OP that Tiger's knee as rationale for the swing change is an overblown crutch. It's a sloppy dismissive theme toward why he can't swing like 2000. Tiger himself uses it, knowing it conveniently ends the topic. But Tiger's comments, particularly toward his health, contradict themselves every six months or so. When books or insider stories show up toward the end of his career I'm confident the story will change, and health concerns a diminished aspect of the swing changes. Handicapper's instinct. Y'all being played.

Others have made good points in this thread. Tiger defaults to the cut virtually every time. I emphasized that a few weeks ago, after the loss to Robert Rock, The situation calls for a draw but he'll hesitate and find a reason to hit the cut, especially with the irons. Occasionally he'll attempt a draw with the woods but there's not as much precision required. McIlroy today didn't give a second thought to playing the high draw to back left hole positions deep in his match.

Tiger has lost the automatic aggressiveness with the short putts and the result when he's tentative is a push, the same thing that showed up at Pebble on hole #8 and subsequently in that round.

I still think he'll find 19 majors. World number one is Luke Donald. That tells me all I need to know about this era...depth without brilliance at the top, not unlike salary cap NFL with half empty teams. I've witnessed Donald's squirrely tee shots many times.

[ron lefthanded holmes]

[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1330060102' post='4364701']
Have to agree, if he hits it tee to green like this, [b]with better putting[/b], he will be tough to beat
[/quote]

does that not go for all the top pros then

[cinnepa]

tiger cannot putt, putting is mental and at this point tiger IS mentally shot. he handled being injured before and obtained good results but IMO he still can't handle the fact that he is not above everyone else now - that his personal life right now is a wide open book for everyone to see.

[TheDarkOne]

[quote name='Awsi Dooger' timestamp='1330082779' post='4365319']
I spent the past two days watching the matches in casino sportsbooks alongside guys with huge cash riding on the outcomes. Today I didn't have a cent on the Tiger match but several friends had Tiger -135 so I rooted for them. For the first time I noticed what the OP pointed out, how ridiculously bent over Tiger is at address. For hole after hole that's what stood out. My buddies were sweating out every shot but I was stunned at Tiger's posture. I had no idea this thread existed but when I visited this site tonight my intent was to post that observation in the related match play thread.

I was envisioning the Tiger I followed in Las Vegas events early in his career, and more recently at Doral, and this posture is a dramatic departure, seemingly not suited to his height at all. Tiger is hardly 6-4 with a need to bend like that. I'm 6-4. I stood next to Tiger at the old Desert Inn in the late '90s to gauge his height. He's perhaps 6-1.

I also agree with the OP that Tiger's knee as rationale for the swing change is an overblown crutch. It's a sloppy dismissive theme toward why he can't swing like 2000. Tiger himself uses it, knowing it conveniently ends the topic. But Tiger's comments, particularly toward his health, contradict themselves every six months or so. When books or insider stories show up toward the end of his career I'm confident the story will change, and health concerns a diminished aspect of the swing changes. Handicapper's instinct. Y'all being played.

Others have made good points in this thread. Tiger defaults to the cut virtually every time. I emphasized that a few weeks ago, after the loss to Robert Rock, The situation calls for a draw but he'll hesitate and find a reason to hit the cut, especially with the irons. Occasionally he'll attempt a draw with the woods but there's not as much precision required. McIlroy today didn't give a second thought to playing the high draw to back left hole positions deep in his match.

Tiger has lost the automatic aggressiveness with the short putts and the result when he's tentative is a push, the same thing that showed up at Pebble on hole #8 and subsequently in that round.

I still think he'll find 19 majors. World number one is Luke Donald. That tells me all I need to know about this era...depth without brilliance at the top, not unlike salary cap NFL with half empty teams. I've witnessed Donald's squirrelly tee shots many times.
[/quote]

I like everything you say here but the part about Woods winning 19 majors is ridiculous. You use Luke Donald as a way to define the period of time, in all likely hood he won't be #1 after this weekend. I must say I'm surprised that someone who prides themselves as a pragmatic master of wagers is seemingly prone to nostalgia.
The worst threat for Woods isn't his hunched over swing, bad putting, Foley, or even injuries. It's DJ, Rors, Fowler, Ryo, Massero, and a dozen others are all getting ready to peak. As these young kids come into there own, they are going to start putting a lot of distance between themselves and the crowd of guys who now are either 40 or very close to it. This is nothing new, the same thing happened when Woods showed up to the generation before him.
Such is the cycle of life in the world of golf.

[mosesgolf]

Boy. Nike putters are just going to start flying off the shelves thanks to Tiger.
Tiger needs to go back to the putter that won him all those majors and 71 wins. Go back to what worked and look over video. DLIII once said that the thing that separated Tiger from everybody else was the flatstick. That's what separated Jack from the others too. Tiger's putting is just mediocre at best and about that of a journeyman player these days. So many players nowadays have all the shots the Tiger has. But not many have ever putted like the old Tiger. The old Tiger dispatches Watney with ease by making half of those putts he missed from 12 feet and in.

[corky]

[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1330090581' post='4365643']
Boy. Nike putters are just going to start flying off the shelves thanks to Tiger.
Tiger needs to go back to the putter that won him all those majors and 71 wins. Go back to what worked and look over video. DLIII once said that the thing that separated Tiger from everybody else was the flatstick. That's what separated Jack from the others too. Tiger's putting is just mediocre at best and about that of a journeyman player these days. So many players nowadays have all the shots the Tiger has. But not many have ever putted like the old Tiger. The old Tiger dispatches Watney with ease by making half of those putts he missed from 12 feet and in.
[/quote]


when will people stop believing that you can buy a golf game..?

Its the Golfer, not the putter......do you really believe that TW would persevere with the Method if he didn't believe it was the best for his game?

In his interview yesterday he said he was taking the putter back shut...... do you really think the Scotty would correct this.....?

[thekru]

[quote name='corky' timestamp='1330091375' post='4365711']
[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1330090581' post='4365643']
Boy. Nike putters are just going to start flying off the shelves thanks to Tiger.
Tiger needs to go back to the putter that won him all those majors and 71 wins. Go back to what worked and look over video. DLIII once said that the thing that separated Tiger from everybody else was the flatstick. That's what separated Jack from the others too. Tiger's putting is just mediocre at best and about that of a journeyman player these days. So many players nowadays have all the shots the Tiger has. But not many have ever putted like the old Tiger. The old Tiger dispatches Watney with ease by making half of those putts he missed from 12 feet and in.
[/quote]


when will people stop believing that you can buy a golf game..?

Its the Golfer, not the putter......do you really believe that TW would persevere with the Method if he didn't believe it was the best for his game?

In his interview yesterday he said he was taking the putter back shut...... do you really think the Scotty would correct this.....?
[/quote]

Corky, I really don't believe mosesgolf was saying it was the putter, he was just making a wise crack about how tour players results affects the sales of products. Sorry Nike, you better sign up Stricker!!

[need2compress]

It is not the swing change and not the putter change. Tiger hast lost his confidence in putting. Confidence is everything with putting. The last two tournaments Tiger actually said "I cannot see the lines". When the greatest putter I have ever witnessed makes that statement, a cure is not imminent.

[mlamar]

[quote name='Awsi Dooger' timestamp='1330082779' post='4365319']
...

Tiger has lost the automatic aggressiveness with the short putts and the result when he's tentative is a push, the same thing that showed up at Pebble on hole #8 and subsequently in that round.

...
[/quote]

I Agree - the aggressiveness is lost ... And even further, when the reporter asked about the comments "he's beatable" - TW of old would have pounced; TW of new fire is lost.

[EdMan63]

[quote name='TheDarkOne' timestamp='1330086409' post='4365403']
I like everything you say here but the part about Woods winning 19 majors is ridiculous. You use Luke Donald as a way to define the period of time, in all likely hood he won't be #1 after this weekend. I must say I'm surprised that someone who prides themselves as a pragmatic master of wagers is seemingly prone to nostalgia.
The worst threat for Woods isn't his hunched over swing, bad putting, Foley, or even injuries. It's DJ, Rors, Fowler, Ryo, Massero, and a dozen others are all getting ready to peak. As these young kids come into there own, they are going to start putting a lot of distance between themselves and the crowd of guys who now are either 40 or very close to it. This is nothing new, the same thing happened when Woods showed up to the generation before him.
Such is the cycle of life in the world of golf.
[/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head!!!!!

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='TheDarkOne' timestamp='1330086409' post='4365403']
[quote name='Awsi Dooger' timestamp='1330082779' post='4365319']
I spent the past two days watching the matches in casino sportsbooks alongside guys with huge cash riding on the outcomes. Today I didn't have a cent on the Tiger match but several friends had Tiger -135 so I rooted for them. For the first time I noticed what the OP pointed out, how ridiculously bent over Tiger is at address. For hole after hole that's what stood out. My buddies were sweating out every shot but I was stunned at Tiger's posture. I had no idea this thread existed but when I visited this site tonight my intent was to post that observation in the related match play thread.

I was envisioning the Tiger I followed in Las Vegas events early in his career, and more recently at Doral, and this posture is a dramatic departure, seemingly not suited to his height at all. Tiger is hardly 6-4 with a need to bend like that. I'm 6-4. I stood next to Tiger at the old Desert Inn in the late '90s to gauge his height. He's perhaps 6-1.

I also agree with the OP that Tiger's knee as rationale for the swing change is an overblown crutch. It's a sloppy dismissive theme toward why he can't swing like 2000. Tiger himself uses it, knowing it conveniently ends the topic. But Tiger's comments, particularly toward his health, contradict themselves every six months or so. When books or insider stories show up toward the end of his career I'm confident the story will change, and health concerns a diminished aspect of the swing changes. Handicapper's instinct. Y'all being played.

Others have made good points in this thread. Tiger defaults to the cut virtually every time. I emphasized that a few weeks ago, after the loss to Robert Rock, The situation calls for a draw but he'll hesitate and find a reason to hit the cut, especially with the irons. Occasionally he'll attempt a draw with the woods but there's not as much precision required. McIlroy today didn't give a second thought to playing the high draw to back left hole positions deep in his match.

Tiger has lost the automatic aggressiveness with the short putts and the result when he's tentative is a push, the same thing that showed up at Pebble on hole #8 and subsequently in that round.

I still think he'll find 19 majors. World number one is Luke Donald. That tells me all I need to know about this era...depth without brilliance at the top, not unlike salary cap NFL with half empty teams. I've witnessed Donald's squirrelly tee shots many times.
[/quote]

I like everything you say here but the part about Woods winning 19 majors is ridiculous. You use Luke Donald as a way to define the period of time, in all likely hood he won't be #1 after this weekend. I must say I'm surprised that someone who prides themselves as a pragmatic master of wagers is seemingly prone to nostalgia.
The worst threat for Woods isn't his hunched over swing, bad putting, Foley, or even injuries. It's DJ, Rors, Fowler, Ryo, Massero, and a dozen others are all getting ready to peak. As these young kids come into there own, they are going to start putting a lot of distance between themselves and the crowd of guys who now are either 40 or very close to it. This is nothing new, the same thing happened when Woods showed up to the generation before him.
Such is the cycle of life in the world of golf.
[/quote]

Nice post.

But, any given Sunday, as they say.

Rory is a prodigy but as we see, guys like DJ, Ryo and Day are not in the same class.

So, I don't think Tiger 2.0 is up against really any Tiger-Originals.

I will enjoy watching Tigers ups and downs. He is more human and will be more humble. When he wins, it will be very satisfying and mean a lot to him since it just don't come as easy as it used to.

And if he keeps grinding, he will get hot, not the same as days of old but he just needs to get hot 4 times in the next 40 majors he plays.

He can do it. Tie Jack, that is.

[herdman]

As bad as tiger is playing he is still a legitimate Top 20 player in the world and maybe Top 15. If he gets his short game and putting in line he will quickly be Top 10. He is getting closer. You can tell by the way he is striking the ball and he is hitting fairways again. If the putter comes back look out because even though he is stuggling he is better than most guys out there. The way he stays in shape he could have another 10-15 years as a major contendor on tour. Of course that is assuming his knee holds up. 45 is not as old as it used to be.

Does anybody really believe Luke Donald is the best player in the world? No way. I see Tiger as a guy who is close to being right there with Rory, Phil when he is hot, DJ, Keegan Bradly, Adam Scott etc. There is no dominate player now. The so called #1 player in the world was taken down by Ernie Els.

Tiger will be back. Will he be dominate? No, but he is already as good as host of top names out there now. He is a solid putter away from winning a tournament this year and contending for another. If he putts well yesterday he probably beats Watney or at least ties and goes to a playoff.

[7humbs]

Can someone post real proof that Tiger's current swing is much easier on his body? He's still twisting, turning, and loading up his knees...

Unless I can see actual bio-mechanic info explaining why the changes over the years have helped, I don't believe it. I think he's changed seeking perfection... he'll never be better than he was in 99 and 2000. Although his swing with Foley seems better than what he had with Haney.

[tnord]

i'll concede that it seems like his ball striking is getting better, but it was HORRENDOUS before.

he doesn't seem to have it mentally anymore, and that's probably the hardest aspect of all to get back. he may putt well one day but he's spraying it all over the place, or vice versa. he doesn't have the shots anymore as all he hits is a cut regardless of the hole. he sprays his driver all over the yard and acts surprised when it happens. when i see him pull driver on TV i actually expect him not to hit the fairway...even rounds when he is hitting fairways it seems like 75% of the time it's a 3w or 2i. most bothersome of all is his performance on sunday once the win is his to lose....he's just handed it almost every single time (prez cup is the only instance i can think of when he closed it out on sunday).

[nospleen]

It was tough to watch that putt miss yesterday. But, it's times like this you have to step back and appreciate what he has accomplished over the last 15 years. (fan or not, it was amazing to watch)

I hope he can turn his short game around. (never thought I would say that about Tiger) But more than that, I hope he can better himself as a person and find some peace. Has to be tough for your world to crumble around you, and even more so when it is self inflicted.

I'll be rooting for him, whether he wins or not...

[rafal]

Since Luke Donald got mentioned here, watch Luke's putting this year...yes, he had unbelievable streak last year and got to #1....but if his ridiculous putting streak ends (as I think it will) watch out...the tumble will be swift....

[deasy55]

[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330099298' post='4366493']
Does anybody really believe Luke Donald is the best player in the world? No way. [/quote]

He was quite clearly the best player in the world last year. Sure, he's after a slow start to this season, but I'm not going to count him out just yet.

[dalehead]

[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330099298' post='4366493']
The way he stays in shape he could have another 10-15 years as a major contendor on tour. Of course that is assuming his knee holds up. 45 is not as old as it used to be.
[/quote]

Yes, but.

I don't see Tiger hanging around for 10 or 15 years just being a contender. If things get to a point where he is convinced that he cannot be the number 1 player in the world, and/or beat Jack's record I think he will ride off into the sunset. He will not be satisfied being a top 20 or even top 10 player.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='dalehead' timestamp='1330102175' post='4366881']
[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330099298' post='4366493']
The way he stays in shape he could have another 10-15 years as a major contendor on tour. Of course that is assuming his knee holds up. 45 is not as old as it used to be.
[/quote]

Yes, but.

I don't see Tiger hanging around for 10 or 15 years just being a contender. If things get to a point where he is convinced that he cannot be the number 1 player in the world, and/or beat Jack's record I think he will ride off into the sunset. He will not be satisfied being a top 20 or even top 10 player.
[/quote]

And do what? That's what Jack thought too.... people with over the top obsessive personalities don't generally just change out of the blue. It's not like he can just go coach little league. He's always going to be so in the spot light that his life will never be his own. He will probably just keep chasing the record book because his fame won't really let him do much else.

[bell812]

[quote name='dalehead' timestamp='1330102175' post='4366881']
[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330099298' post='4366493']
The way he stays in shape he could have another 10-15 years as a major contendor on tour. Of course that is assuming his knee holds up. 45 is not as old as it used to be.
[/quote]

Yes, but.

I don't see Tiger hanging around for 10 or 15 years just being a contender. If things get to a point where he is convinced that he cannot be the number 1 player in the world, and/or beat Jack's record I think he will ride off into the sunset. He will not be satisfied being a top 20 or even top 10 player.
[/quote]

This is said about all the great athletes across all the sports, yet very few of the great ones ever go out on top. I can think of one, Jim Brown. Guys that talented that have dominated tend to think they're always close to getting it back. I'll say this, it doesn't look good for Tiger breaking Jack's record, but I wouldn't bet against him either.

[irlgolf56]

[quote name='deasy55' timestamp='1330101079' post='4366725']
[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330099298' post='4366493']
Does anybody really believe Luke Donald is the best player in the world? No way. [/quote]

He was quite clearly the best player in the world last year. Sure, he's after a slow start to this season, but I'm not going to count him out just yet.
[/quote]

Yes, exactly. Luke Donald last year was the best golfer in the world, and as a result he is Number 1. Why is that so hard for so many people to understand?

[DevilGolfer]

[quote name='bell812' timestamp='1330102978' post='4366987']
[quote name='dalehead' timestamp='1330102175' post='4366881']
[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330099298' post='4366493']
The way he stays in shape he could have another 10-15 years as a major contendor on tour. Of course that is assuming his knee holds up. 45 is not as old as it used to be.
[/quote]

Yes, but.

I don't see Tiger hanging around for 10 or 15 years just being a contender. If things get to a point where he is convinced that he cannot be the number 1 player in the world, and/or beat Jack's record I think he will ride off into the sunset. He will not be satisfied being a top 20 or even top 10 player.
[/quote]

This is said about all the great athletes across all the sports, yet very few of the great ones ever go out on top. I can think of one, Jim Brown.
[/quote]
Barry Sanders, Annika, Ochoa, Ted Williams, Elway, Sampras. It's not norm but it's happened a few times.

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='rafal' timestamp='1329958004' post='4354147']
Looks like a beautiful relationship to me...

[attachment=1037901:tig2.png]
[attachment=1037899:tig1.png]
[/quote]
I think I get it. And it's funny!!!

[Rob631]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1329953455' post='4353505']
I watched Tiger live a few times as a junior player and collegiate.
One of the hallmarks of his technique was a nice tall address posture. This posture promoted a , relaxed shoulder turn and nice efficient pivot (weight transefr). Tiger addressed the ball with that traditional ,textbook technique, since he was a little kid.
[b]Haney messed Tiger up some[/b], but now this fraud Foley has Tiger completely off track. These days Tiger is using a terrible address posture, bending over way too much. All one can do with that bent over posture is hang on the left side and make an ineffective arm swing, which is what Tiger is doing now.
[/quote]


Under Haney he won ~50% of tourneys he teed it up in. I wouldn't call that messing someone up.

[Playaway]

[quote name='Awsi Dooger' timestamp='1330082779' post='4365319']
I spent the past two days watching the matches in casino sportsbooks alongside guys with huge cash riding on the outcomes. Today I didn't have a cent on the Tiger match but several friends had Tiger -135 so I rooted for them. For the first time I noticed what the OP pointed out, how ridiculously bent over Tiger is at address. For hole after hole that's what stood out. My buddies were sweating out every shot but I was stunned at Tiger's posture. I had no idea this thread existed but when I visited this site tonight my intent was to post that observation in the related match play thread.

I was envisioning the Tiger I followed in Las Vegas events early in his career, and more recently at Doral, and this posture is a dramatic departure, seemingly not suited to his height at all. Tiger is hardly 6-4 with a need to bend like that. I'm 6-4. I stood next to Tiger at the old Desert Inn in the late '90s to gauge his height. He's perhaps 6-1.

I also agree with the OP that Tiger's knee as rationale for the swing change is an overblown crutch. It's a sloppy dismissive theme toward why he can't swing like 2000. Tiger himself uses it, knowing it conveniently ends the topic. But Tiger's comments, particularly toward his health, contradict themselves every six months or so. When books or insider stories show up toward the end of his career I'm confident the story will change, and health concerns a diminished aspect of the swing changes. Handicapper's instinct. Y'all being played.

Others have made good points in this thread. Tiger defaults to the cut virtually every time. I emphasized that a few weeks ago, after the loss to Robert Rock, The situation calls for a draw but he'll hesitate and find a reason to hit the cut, especially with the irons. Occasionally he'll attempt a draw with the woods but there's not as much precision required. McIlroy today didn't give a second thought to playing the high draw to back left hole positions deep in his match.

Tiger has lost the automatic aggressiveness with the short putts and the result when he's tentative is a push, the same thing that showed up at Pebble on hole #8 and subsequently in that round.

I still think he'll find 19 majors. World number one is Luke Donald. That tells me all I need to know about this era...depth without brilliance at the top, not unlike salary cap NFL with half empty teams. I've witnessed Donald's squirrely tee shots many times.
[/quote]

You have any Masters odds you can list?

[Golfnutgalen]

[quote name='Rob631' timestamp='1330105991' post='4367365']
Under Haney he won ~50% of tourneys he teed it up in. I wouldn't call that messing someone up.
[/quote]
I'll never understand why so many people hated, and continue to hate, Tiger's swing under Hank Haney. The 50% number you mentioned comes from the incredible period from 2006-2008 injury when he won over half (19/37) of the official PGA Tournaments he entered.

For comparison:
[b]Tiger under Butch Harmon[/b] (1996-2003)
35/148 (0.24%) wins, 8/31 (0.26%) major wins
[b]
Tiger under Hank Haney [/b](2004-2009, excluding the half of 2010 when he couldn't play because his mind was messed up)
32/94 (0.34%) wins, 6/24 (0.25%) major wins

Tiger Woods played phenomenal golf under Hank Haney, period.

[herdman]

[quote name='irlgolf56' timestamp='1330104194' post='4367119']
[quote name='deasy55' timestamp='1330101079' post='4366725']
[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330099298' post='4366493']
Does anybody really believe Luke Donald is the best player in the world? No way. [/quote]

He was quite clearly the best player in the world last year. Sure, he's after a slow start to this season, but I'm not going to count him out just yet.
[/quote]

Yes, exactly. Luke Donald last year was the best golfer in the world, and as a result he is Number 1. Why is that so hard for so many people to understand?
[/quote]

Why? Because he played more tournaments? I would take a host of other golfers when they are playing their best over Luke. He might have been ranked #1 but he is not the best player in the world.

[deasy55]

[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330111910' post='4368233']
[quote name='irlgolf56' timestamp='1330104194' post='4367119']
[quote name='deasy55' timestamp='1330101079' post='4366725']
[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330099298' post='4366493']
Does anybody really believe Luke Donald is the best player in the world? No way. [/quote]

He was quite clearly the best player in the world last year. Sure, he's after a slow start to this season, but I'm not going to count him out just yet.
[/quote]

Yes, exactly. Luke Donald last year was the best golfer in the world, and as a result he is Number 1. Why is that so hard for so many people to understand?
[/quote]

Why? Because he played more tournaments? I would take a host of other golfers when they are playing their best over Luke. He might have been ranked #1 but he is not the best player in the world.
[/quote]

Playing more tournaments is a hindrance for players trying to do well in the OWGR, not a benefit.

He was the best player in the world because he won more events than anyone else (4), and also won the following:
PGA Player of the Year
PGA Tour Player of the Year
Euro Tour Player of The Year
PGA Tour Money List
Euro Tour Money List
PGA Tour Scoring Average
European Tour Scoring Average

Who would you put #1 ahead of all that?

[herdman]

I just don't think he is the best player in the world. Rory for beginners.

[deasy55]

[quote name='herdman' timestamp='1330116072' post='4368805']
I just don't think he is the best player in the world. Rory for beginners.
[/quote]


Who would you consider #1 last year then?