Very interesting video, but I'm wondering how it applies to the newer Titleist hosels that have two levels of adjustment. For example, if I change my TS2 fairway wood to add loft, will that also change the lie or face angle? The Titleist website doesn't say anything about that either way. Thanks.
That info is on the chart. Well, lie angle certainly is. The draw or fade script on the chart should tell you it is opening and closing.
Thanks for the response, Shilgy. I used the chart to adjust my fairway wood from A-1 to A-4 to increase the loft. Based on the chart, it looks like A-4 keeps the lie angle standard (assuming I'm reading it right). But when I swung the club this morning, it looked to me like that adjustment also changed the face angle toward a draw a little bit. Does that make sense?
Yes. Face angle changes come from the loft adjustment changes. Lie angle changes are independent of both loft and face angle.
This is the original Titleist Performance Matrix, which included another column on the right hand side.
The left hand column (Loft) is valid when the face is square at impact (and at address, if you hover the head in a square face orientation during your setup).
The right hand column (Face Angle) is valid when the head is soled at address and stays at that face orientation until impact.
So, @Brenkj, if you soled the head at address using the A-4 setting, then that explains why the face looked a little closed; however, the loft didn't change in that case.
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Thanks for the response. As a relative newbie to trying to take golf seriously, all this stuff gives me a major case of tired-head. I think I'm just going to return the 16.5 and get an 18.
Then why does lie change when adjustments are made?
You have to be more specific about what changes you're referring to. For the Titleist adapter and settings (which is what we're talking about now) all you have to do is look at the chart. Lie doesn't always change. Some adjustments just change loft/face angle, some other adjustments just change lie angle, and then there are some changes that can be made that will change both. But Brenkj was specifically asking about A1 to A4 - which doesn't change the lie angle.
I see what you’re saying now. Thank you.
Seems to me the only thing these adjustable driver hosels are good for is to adjust the club's lie angle. Particularly if you grip the club when the face is soled.
everyone needs to watch it for sure!
Can someone help me out on what happens with the Ping G410 adapter. I understand the basics of what the video is saying, but I'm not sure of everything that happens with the adjustments depending on how I grip the club.
If I have it in the standard position and sole the club, I get standard loft.
If I set it to little (-), and grip the club so that the club face is square at address, then I have -1.0 loft and the lie angle is the unaffected according to the chart.
If I set it to (-) and sole the club and then grip the loft is not changed according to the video. In this case I assume the face would then be open and I've also changed the lie angle? In this case, how open is the face and what is the new lie angle?
First of all, the easy question to answer. Lie angle of the club has nothing to do with how you grip it.
Technically face angle and loft don't either. Face angle, static loft and effective loft don't change based on how you grip it. None of the head/club specs are really dependent on how you grip it. The face angle always changes when you adjust 'loft' on an adjustable hosel.
What a change in how you grip it MIGHT do is change how much that change in face angle effects your ball flight results. It may or it may not counteract the change in face angle in a way that also changes the final dynamic loft. But even all the talk about soling vs squaring the face at setup is still just a gross over simplification. Way too much can happen between setup and impact to make any such simplifications useful. Some people just more sensitive to face angle changes than others so trying to square up the face at address doesn't always work the same.
There is actually ONLY one way to figure what will happen for you and your swing. Go to the range, change the adapter setting and hit some balls. Just play around with the different settings and see what happens.
First, thanks for jumping in and answering my question.
What I meant when I was talking about gripping the club was if I take a neutral grip relative to my body...what is happening to the driver loft/lie/face angle depending on what setting the club is in. I understand that a strong/weak grip isn't going to change the loft/lie/face angle at address. I also understand that no matter what grip or setting I have the driver in at address isn't going to directly translate to a particular result at impact. The difference between address and impact is based entirely on my swing. I'm only trying to understand what the impacts of different settings on the driver have at address. I probably shouldn't have mentioned gripping the club at all because it is probably misleading as to what I am really trying to ask.
My understanding is the following:
1) If I sole the club, I am going to get the loft printed on the bottom of the driver regardless of what setting it is in. Is this correct?
2) If I want to make a loft adjustment, then I have to set the adapter for the loft I want and keep the face square to my target line.
I already answered those questions, but let me try again.
When I was referring to the grip not changing the club specs, I meant that to include anything and everything you might do at address. Static loft, effective loft, face angle, and lie angle are all measured on a machine with the club set-up in a very specific position depending on the measurement. What you do with it after they take it off the measuring device and what you do at address doesn't change any of those numbers. The true club specs have nothing to do with how the club is used.
So what that means is that when people are asking about how things can change or ask what they really "get", they are really only talking about what they get at impact - the dynamic loft. And when discussing the question of whether the hosel adjustment results in a face angle vs loft change, it mostly comes down to what you end up getting at impact as far as the face orientation ends up being relative to club path. If you square up the face to path the same at impact, you get the change to the launch angle (or dynamic loft). If you don't, you get a change in shot shape or a combination of the two.
Now, how you set-up certainly can effect what you get at impact but the problems is that for most it's not nearly as predictable as people try to make it seem in this thread. There are too many other things that can (very commonly) influence it as well even when the adjustment seems as simple as squaring up the face. So it's just not a simple question to answer.
So for both 1) and 2) the answer is the same. For some people those statements will be correct, for other people they will not. Which of course is one of the main reasons it's such a confusing question to find a useful answer to when search through the threads.
If you want to find out whether they are correct or not for you and your swing, go try the different options on the range and see what happens to the ball flight. That's the only way to really know what will happen.
But as an aside, my advice would be to forget about changing what you do at address. The swing is hard enough to learn and make changes to. If you've spent years setting up a certain way, you're almost always going to be better off continuing to setup that same way. That means when you go to the range and test different settings there are two possibilities
1) if the "loft" changes result in more of a change in shot shape or starting line, then you need to think of the adjustment as a face angle change. If you need a loft change, then it means getting a head with a different stamped loft.
2) If you see more of a launch angle change and no issues with shot shape or start line, then you can think of the adjustment as a loft adjustment.
Hmm the Sim max driver I got they say the face angle is different when adjusting hosel. Face gets more open I believe when lowering. So for those I shouldnt rotate the club to square to get the loft change?
Suggest you read the few posts just before yours.
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Still confusing. Appear you would negate the loft change by having the club head square on the system taylormade use? The change of lie angle to open or closed head as you go up or down is a necessary compromise for it to work?
Someone more expert than me may chime in, and there are many more posts on this in the thread, but I'll give it one more shot that is as much as I can add.
"Reducing loft" on the adaptor is just making a more open face angle change. Opposite for the "increased loft" setting.
The change you made to reposition the relationship of the shaft in the adaptor results in a loft change only if you deliver the head square AT IMPACT. Some folks can achieve this by how they deliver the club to the ball to offset the head being open or closed. Some will not ground the club and square it with the hands at address. But just because you stsrt the club square at address (or open, or closed) doiesn't mean you will necessarily get to square at impact.
I play my G410 driver now at the standard setting and try to keep it square (usually) at address. Does that mean I always return it square at impact? I wish.
One more thing...it's my anecdotal opininion that sometimes certain clubs will tend to open or close more than the adjustment setting would suggest. Maybe its how the CG in the head or tortion of the shaft slightly changes in that position. Or...maybe it's just psycholgical...if one plays a club slightly open perhaps we just work a bit more to turn it over. We aren't Iron Byrons.
yeah of course but that doesn´t have anything with how the golf club is setup just your swing. But okay I can no longer rest the club on the ground but am still supposed to adress the ball with a straight face and then I will get the loft change. I am actually not supposed to hit the ball somewhere before or after the middle of my swing to get the straightness that way :p
Wonder if that is why some of my new grips on my pings fw for example no longer show the lines to show that I have the face straight as you are supposed to visually square the head before striking.
Almighty confusing hope I never feel the need to adjust my sim max lol.
This thread really needs to be called A Little Bit About How Adjustable Hosel Drivers Work But Really Just Trying to Hock Bendable Hosel Wishon Drivers.
There are far better videos out there if you actually want to understand what is happening with an adjustable hosel club.
The last bit is exactly why they no longer have the marker on the grips to indicate a square face. Golf pride created these "360" groups specifically to be used on the adjustable hosel clubs.
Watch this video instead and see if it helps.
Yes now even I understand
Don't bother. I contributed to this thread 5 years ago and it was only about that back then too. It actually didn't age all that well, clearly adjustable adapters work and and used by EVERYONE.
This was super helpful! I couldn't quite wrap my head around the face angle impact. The "clock" shaft positioning image was also helpful. I may finally get it.
Thank you for this!
The point Stuart is making is that address does not always equal impact. HOWEVER, altering from your NORMAL grip to something which closes or opens the face of the club WILL affect what you have at impact most of the time. YMMV!
In Tom's video, he is explaining the difference in the traditional clubhead measurement process and what OEMs seemed to be relating to at the start of the whole adjustable hosel era. Stuart's point is even though a specific thing is happening with the club adjustment, it may not give you what you expect to get.
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