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How adjustable drivers actually work. Everyone should be required to watch this to be allowed to pos

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  • BrenkjBrenkj Members  73WRX Points: 14Posts: 73 Bunkers
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    Very interesting video, but I'm wondering how it applies to the newer Titleist hosels that have two levels of adjustment. For example, if I change my TS2 fairway wood to add loft, will that also change the lie or face angle? The Titleist website doesn't say anything about that either way. Thanks.

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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12654WRX Points: 1,644Handicap: 3.8Posts: 12,654 Titanium Tees
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    That info is on the chart. Well, lie angle certainly is. The draw or fade script on the chart should tell you it is opening and closing.



    Posted:
    WITB
    Tools for the job!


  • BrenkjBrenkj Members  73WRX Points: 14Posts: 73 Bunkers
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    Thanks for the response, Shilgy. I used the chart to adjust my fairway wood from A-1 to A-4 to increase the loft. Based on the chart, it looks like A-4 keeps the lie angle standard (assuming I'm reading it right). But when I swung the club this morning, it looked to me like that adjustment also changed the face angle toward a draw a little bit. Does that make sense?

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
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    Yes. Face angle changes come from the loft adjustment changes. Lie angle changes are independent of both loft and face angle.

    Posted:
  • HiTrajLoSpinHiTrajLoSpin East TennesseeMembers  155WRX Points: 97Posts: 155 Fairways
    Joined:  edited May 12, 2020 9:24pm #486

    This is the original Titleist Performance Matrix, which included another column on the right hand side.

    The left hand column (Loft) is valid when the face is square at impact (and at address, if you hover the head in a square face orientation during your setup).

    The right hand column (Face Angle) is valid when the head is soled at address and stays at that face orientation until impact.

    So, @Brenkj, if you soled the head at address using the A-4 setting, then that explains why the face looked a little closed; however, the loft didn't change in that case.


    Posted:

    TS2 11.5°
    TS2 18°
    818H1 21°, 25°
    718AP2 5-PW
    SM7 50.08F, 54.10S, 58.08M
    Evnroll ER8.3 players mallet

  • BrenkjBrenkj Members  73WRX Points: 14Posts: 73 Bunkers
    Joined:  #487

    Thanks for the response. As a relative newbie to trying to take golf seriously, all this stuff gives me a major case of tired-head. I think I'm just going to return the 16.5 and get an 18.

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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12654WRX Points: 1,644Handicap: 3.8Posts: 12,654 Titanium Tees
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    Then why does lie change when adjustments are made?

    Posted:
    WITB
    Tools for the job!


  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 13, 2020 8:03am #489

    You have to be more specific about what changes you're referring to. For the Titleist adapter and settings (which is what we're talking about now) all you have to do is look at the chart. Lie doesn't always change. Some adjustments just change loft/face angle, some other adjustments just change lie angle, and then there are some changes that can be made that will change both. But Brenkj was specifically asking about A1 to A4 - which doesn't change the lie angle.

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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12654WRX Points: 1,644Handicap: 3.8Posts: 12,654 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #490
    Posted:
    WITB
    Tools for the job!


  • LobbyLobby Members  125WRX Points: 110Posts: 125 Fairways
    Joined:  #491

    Seems to me the only thing these adjustable driver hosels are good for is to adjust the club's lie angle. Particularly if you grip the club when the face is soled.

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  • SebastianQuinngSebastianQuinng Members  20WRX Points: -18Posts: 20 Bunkers
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    everyone needs to watch it for sure!

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  • ChitownM2ChitownM2 Members  117WRX Points: 41Posts: 117 Fairways
    Joined:  #493

    Can someone help me out on what happens with the Ping G410 adapter. I understand the basics of what the video is saying, but I'm not sure of everything that happens with the adjustments depending on how I grip the club.

    If I have it in the standard position and sole the club, I get standard loft.

    If I set it to little (-), and grip the club so that the club face is square at address, then I have -1.0 loft and the lie angle is the unaffected according to the chart.

    If I set it to (-) and sole the club and then grip the loft is not changed according to the video. In this case I assume the face would then be open and I've also changed the lie angle? In this case, how open is the face and what is the new lie angle?



    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 30, 2020 11:00am #494

    First of all, the easy question to answer. Lie angle of the club has nothing to do with how you grip it.

    Technically face angle and loft don't either. Face angle, static loft and effective loft don't change based on how you grip it. None of the head/club specs are really dependent on how you grip it. The face angle always changes when you adjust 'loft' on an adjustable hosel.

    What a change in how you grip it MIGHT do is change how much that change in face angle effects your ball flight results. It may or it may not counteract the change in face angle in a way that also changes the final dynamic loft. But even all the talk about soling vs squaring the face at setup is still just a gross over simplification. Way too much can happen between setup and impact to make any such simplifications useful. Some people just more sensitive to face angle changes than others so trying to square up the face at address doesn't always work the same.

    There is actually ONLY one way to figure what will happen for you and your swing. Go to the range, change the adapter setting and hit some balls. Just play around with the different settings and see what happens.

    Posted:
  • ChitownM2ChitownM2 Members  117WRX Points: 41Posts: 117 Fairways
    Joined:  #495

    First, thanks for jumping in and answering my question.

    What I meant when I was talking about gripping the club was if I take a neutral grip relative to my body...what is happening to the driver loft/lie/face angle depending on what setting the club is in. I understand that a strong/weak grip isn't going to change the loft/lie/face angle at address. I also understand that no matter what grip or setting I have the driver in at address isn't going to directly translate to a particular result at impact. The difference between address and impact is based entirely on my swing. I'm only trying to understand what the impacts of different settings on the driver have at address. I probably shouldn't have mentioned gripping the club at all because it is probably misleading as to what I am really trying to ask.

    My understanding is the following:

    1) If I sole the club, I am going to get the loft printed on the bottom of the driver regardless of what setting it is in. Is this correct?

    2) If I want to make a loft adjustment, then I have to set the adapter for the loft I want and keep the face square to my target line.

    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25573WRX Points: 1,950Posts: 25,573 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 30, 2020 3:57pm #496

    I already answered those questions, but let me try again.

    When I was referring to the grip not changing the club specs, I meant that to include anything and everything you might do at address. Static loft, effective loft, face angle, and lie angle are all measured on a machine with the club set-up in a very specific position depending on the measurement. What you do with it after they take it off the measuring device and what you do at address doesn't change any of those numbers. The true club specs have nothing to do with how the club is used.

    So what that means is that when people are asking about how things can change or ask what they really "get", they are really only talking about what they get at impact - the dynamic loft. And when discussing the question of whether the hosel adjustment results in a face angle vs loft change, it mostly comes down to what you end up getting at impact as far as the face orientation ends up being relative to club path. If you square up the face to path the same at impact, you get the change to the launch angle (or dynamic loft). If you don't, you get a change in shot shape or a combination of the two.

    Now, how you set-up certainly can effect what you get at impact but the problems is that for most it's not nearly as predictable as people try to make it seem in this thread. There are too many other things that can (very commonly) influence it as well even when the adjustment seems as simple as squaring up the face. So it's just not a simple question to answer.

    So for both 1) and 2) the answer is the same. For some people those statements will be correct, for other people they will not. Which of course is one of the main reasons it's such a confusing question to find a useful answer to when search through the threads.

    If you want to find out whether they are correct or not for you and your swing, go try the different options on the range and see what happens to the ball flight. That's the only way to really know what will happen.


    But as an aside, my advice would be to forget about changing what you do at address. The swing is hard enough to learn and make changes to. If you've spent years setting up a certain way, you're almost always going to be better off continuing to setup that same way. That means when you go to the range and test different settings there are two possibilities

    1) if the "loft" changes result in more of a change in shot shape or starting line, then you need to think of the adjustment as a face angle change. If you need a loft change, then it means getting a head with a different stamped loft.

    2) If you see more of a launch angle change and no issues with shot shape or start line, then you can think of the adjustment as a loft adjustment.

    Posted:
  • OqvistOqvist Members  151WRX Points: 46Posts: 151 Fairways
    Joined:  #497

    Hmm the Sim max driver I got they say the face angle is different when adjusting hosel. Face gets more open I believe when lowering. So for those I shouldnt rotate the club to square to get the loft change?

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  • myspinonitmyspinonit Members  3012WRX Points: 215Posts: 3,012 Titanium Tees
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    Suggest you read the few posts just before yours.

    Posted:

    Ping G410 Plus 10.5°  Alta CB 55 R

    Ping G410  5 wood (at 16.5°) &  7 wood ( at 19.5°)  Alta CB 65 R

    Ping G410  22° & 26° hybrids  Alta CB 70 R

    Miura PP9003 6-PW Steelfiber i70 A

    Vokey SM6 49.07F, 54.08M, 58.08M Steelfiber i80 R

    Scotty Cameron Phantom X 5.5  34"

    Ball: Q Star Tour

















  • OqvistOqvist Members  151WRX Points: 46Posts: 151 Fairways
    Joined:  #499

    Still confusing. Appear you would negate the loft change by having the club head square on the system taylormade use? The change of lie angle to open or closed head as you go up or down is a necessary compromise for it to work?

    Posted:
  • myspinonitmyspinonit Members  3012WRX Points: 215Posts: 3,012 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jul 5, 2020 8:57pm #500

    Someone more expert than me may chime in, and there are many more posts on this in the thread, but I'll give it one more shot that is as much as I can add.

    "Reducing loft" on the adaptor is just making a more open face angle change. Opposite for the "increased loft" setting.

    The change you made to reposition the relationship of the shaft in the adaptor results in a loft change only if you deliver the head square AT IMPACT. Some folks can achieve this by how they deliver the club to the ball to offset the head being open or closed. Some will not ground the club and square it with the hands at address. But just because you stsrt the club square at address (or open, or closed) doiesn't mean you will necessarily get to square at impact.

    I play my G410 driver now at the standard setting and try to keep it square (usually) at address. Does that mean I always return it square at impact? I wish.

    One more thing...it's my anecdotal opininion that sometimes certain clubs will tend to open or close more than the adjustment setting would suggest. Maybe its how the CG in the head or tortion of the shaft slightly changes in that position. Or...maybe it's just psycholgical...if one plays a club slightly open perhaps we just work a bit more to turn it over. We aren't Iron Byrons.

    Posted:

    Ping G410 Plus 10.5°  Alta CB 55 R

    Ping G410  5 wood (at 16.5°) &  7 wood ( at 19.5°)  Alta CB 65 R

    Ping G410  22° & 26° hybrids  Alta CB 70 R

    Miura PP9003 6-PW Steelfiber i70 A

    Vokey SM6 49.07F, 54.08M, 58.08M Steelfiber i80 R

    Scotty Cameron Phantom X 5.5  34"

    Ball: Q Star Tour

















  • OqvistOqvist Members  151WRX Points: 46Posts: 151 Fairways
    Joined:  #501

    yeah of course but that doesn´t have anything with how the golf club is setup just your swing. But okay I can no longer rest the club on the ground but am still supposed to adress the ball with a straight face and then I will get the loft change. I am actually not supposed to hit the ball somewhere before or after the middle of my swing to get the straightness that way :p

    Wonder if that is why some of my new grips on my pings fw for example no longer show the lines to show that I have the face straight as you are supposed to visually square the head before striking.

    Almighty confusing hope I never feel the need to adjust my sim max lol.

    Posted:
  • Adam CAdam C Members  913WRX Points: 481Handicap: 4Posts: 913 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #502

    This thread really needs to be called A Little Bit About How Adjustable Hosel Drivers Work But Really Just Trying to Hock Bendable Hosel Wishon Drivers.

    There are far better videos out there if you actually want to understand what is happening with an adjustable hosel club.

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  • ChitownM2ChitownM2 Members  117WRX Points: 41Posts: 117 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jul 5, 2020 9:23pm #503

    The last bit is exactly why they no longer have the marker on the grips to indicate a square face. Golf pride created these "360" groups specifically to be used on the adjustable hosel clubs.

    Posted:
  • Adam CAdam C Members  913WRX Points: 481Handicap: 4Posts: 913 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #504
    Posted:
  • myspinonitmyspinonit Members  3012WRX Points: 215Posts: 3,012 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #505
    Posted:

    Ping G410 Plus 10.5°  Alta CB 55 R

    Ping G410  5 wood (at 16.5°) &  7 wood ( at 19.5°)  Alta CB 65 R

    Ping G410  22° & 26° hybrids  Alta CB 70 R

    Miura PP9003 6-PW Steelfiber i70 A

    Vokey SM6 49.07F, 54.08M, 58.08M Steelfiber i80 R

    Scotty Cameron Phantom X 5.5  34"

    Ball: Q Star Tour

















  • OqvistOqvist Members  151WRX Points: 46Posts: 151 Fairways
    Joined:  #506
    Posted:
  • clinkinfoclinkinfo Members  941WRX Points: 228Posts: 941 Golden Tee
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    Don't bother. I contributed to this thread 5 years ago and it was only about that back then too. It actually didn't age all that well, clearly adjustable adapters work and and used by EVERYONE.

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  • MysteryVMysteryV Members  602WRX Points: 176Posts: 602 Golden Tee
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    This was super helpful! I couldn't quite wrap my head around the face angle impact. The "clock" shaft positioning image was also helpful. I may finally get it.

    Posted:
    Driver: Taylormade SIM Max w/ Ventus Blue "New Year's" edition
    3 Wood / 5 Wood / 4H: Epic 3+ w/ GD AD-DI
    Irons: Miura CB-1008 w/ Oban CT-115
    Wedges: Miura Y Grind 51, Miura K Grind 56,60 w/ Modus Wedge
    Putter: Byron Morgan DH-89 GSS
  • Pablito WoodsPablito Woods Sir Pablo Members  704WRX Points: 62Posts: 704 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #509
    Posted:
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha 816 DBD Driver, 10.5* with Grafalloy ProLaunch Red X-Stiff
    Adams XTD Ti Fairway Woods, 15* and 18* with stock Matrix 7Q3 Red Tie X-Stiff
    Taylormade M1 2016 Hybrid, 21* with Apollo Spectre Lite Stiff
    Cobra King Tour Forged Irons, 4-PW with KBS Tour FLT 120S
    Scratch 8620 Wedges, 53*/DD (bent to 54*) and 60*/DD with True Temper Dynamic Gold S300
    STX Sync Series 8 Putter, 34" with Red Face Insert
  • Ri_RedneckRi_Redneck Leather for Life!! Members  5950WRX Points: 469Handicap: 8Posts: 5,950 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #510

    The point Stuart is making is that address does not always equal impact. HOWEVER, altering from your NORMAL grip to something which closes or opens the face of the club WILL affect what you have at impact most of the time. YMMV!

    In Tom's video, he is explaining the difference in the traditional clubhead measurement process and what OEMs seemed to be relating to at the start of the whole adjustable hosel era. Stuart's point is even though a specific thing is happening with the club adjustment, it may not give you what you expect to get.

    BT

    Posted:

    Bag 1

    Cobra King LTD Pro 9.5* HZRDUS Black 7 6.0 @ 44.5"
    King LTD 14.5 - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43"
    F6 5-7 @ 17.5 - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5"
    Mizuno MP5 4-PW - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
    Mizuno MP-T5 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge
    Grips - Grip Master Master Perforated Midsize

    Bag 2
    F7 9.5* - Aldila Copperhead 70TX @ 44.5
    King LTD Blk 14.5* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43
    King LTD Blk 19* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5
    Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
    Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge
    Grips - Grip Master Classic Wrap Midsize

    Bag 3
    Mizuno ST190 9.5* - Diamana "Flowerband" Whiteboard 73 S @ 44.5"
    Mizuno ST190 14.5* - Aldila RIP Phenom 80 S @ 43"
    Epic Flash Heavenwood 19* - Aldila RIP Phenom 80 S @ 42" 
    Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
    Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge
    Grips - Grip Master Roo Midsize





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