Metal attachment to flag stick (COVID precaution)

[WhiZ]

Hello,

Our course is using a metal attachment to allow golfers to lift the ball out of the cup with their putter as a COVID prevention measure. We have several players complaining that the attachment is causing balls to 'bounce off' that would otherwise have been holed. A few have said that Golf Canada (we are in Canada) have deemed that in such a situation the ball should be considered holed.

I have searched for this ruling and cannot locate it. Golf Canada COVID measures are listed here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfcanada/app/uploads/golfcanada/production/2020/05/11084530/COVID-19-Rules-of-Golf-Rules-of-Handicapping-Guidance-FINAL.pdf

While it mentions the flagstick may be modified and the round posted for handicap purposes, it does not say anything about changing the requirement for the ball to be considered 'holed'.

The only mention I can find supporting their position is something on the USGA site:3. My ball went into the hole, but due to the foam insert, it bounced out. How do I record my score for handicap purposes?

Although your ball has not been holed and you have yet to complete the hole, if you determine that, in your best judgment, your ball would have been holed more than 50% of the time had there not been a foam (or other material) insert, you must record your score for handicap purposes as if the ball was holed. 

Source: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rulesarticles/covid-19-rules-and-handicapping-faqs.html

I was wondering if anybody had some light they could help shed on the subject?

Thanks very much!

WhiZ

[Wardonation]

you guys got eh "cheap"version of the flagstick. The other one just has a "wire" instead of the white sleeve. The ball is deemed holed when it is in the hole period...

[Augster]

There are guys playing this BS at my course. Only, we don’t have the attachment. Just the flag, and foam. The foam is way too deep to cause a bounce out.

I saw the flagstick bounce out made putts all last year, pre-Covid. It happens. A lot. I’ll bet these guys pulled the flag all last year and are just now seeing what a horrible idea leaving the flag in is. In my event today we had 2 more birdie putts hit the flag and stay out. It happens all the time.

Holing the putt is the only fair way to play.

[jmkenn0]

We had the noodles, that was a $hit-show, then we went to the EZ-lift. I think the official guidelines are if it hits the metal and everyone agrees it would have gone in, count it. But now everyone just spins the flag because the bounce-off the metal rod happened a lot, so basically defeated some of the purpose.

I really don't understand why they didn't go with something more flexible instead of the rod for the pulling mechanism?

[2bGood]

The USGA did release an advisement that for handicap purposes if the hole has been modified for Covid and the player deems that their ball would have went in they should count as holed they should record their most likely score. This is for handicap purposes only. We have been very clear at our club that for any competition, a made putt is a made putt. Period.

 

MODIFICATIONS TO THE HOLE; NOT REQUIRING THAT PLAYERS HOLE OUT

To minimize the possibility of exposing golfers to coronavirus, a number of methods have been employed to modify the hole so that players no longer need to reach into the hole to remove a ball.

These have included some courses setting holes so that the hole-liner remains an inch or two above the surface of the green while others have placed various objects into the hole or around the flagstick (such as foam pool noodles or plastic piping) so that a ball is unable to fall to the bottom.

While all of these measures are available to a committee, it is important to note that with some options the ball cannot be holed under the Rules of Golf, such as when the hole-liner is above the surface of the putting green. While these may serve the needs of a course hosting recreational play, these are not recommended for competition.

Alternatives for both recreational play and competition that allow the ball to be holed include placing inserts into the hole that sit below the surface of the putting green and allow the ball to come to rest on the insert in the hole, either entirely or partially below the surface of the green.

In all cases, a round played under these conditions will result in an acceptable score for handicap purposes using the most likely score guidelines (see Rule 3.3 of the Rules of Handicapping).While the most likely score procedure is intended to support certain formats of play where the player is not required to hole out (such as in match play when the player’s next stroke is conceded or in Four-Ball stroke play when a partner picks up), it is also temporarily in effect where the above described safety measures are being used. Once a golf facility transitions to Phase 3, the use of most likely score will no longer be in effect outside of its intended application. Note: Improper application of most likely score may result in lower scores. It is important for players to apply the procedure consistently and accurately to protect the integrity of their Handicap Index.

When using most likely score, the player should consider the number of strokes most likely required to complete the hole, and determine whether the ball would have been holed or not. Most likely score is at the player's best judgment and should not be used to gain an unfair advantage.

[Newby]

This just released by the R&A/USGA - COVID-19 Related Guidance on the Rules of Golf.if any of the following provisions are used, play in such circumstances is not in accordance with the Rules of Golf:• Treating a ball as holed or holed with the next stroke if it is within a certain distance of the hole.• Having the hole liner sitting above the surface of the green and treating a ball as holed if it strikes the liner.• Treating a ball as holed when it has bounced out of the hole for any reason (for example, when it has bounced off the flagstick, a tray attached to the flagstick or the hole liner).

 

 

[davep043]

And this brings out the disparity between the Rules of Golf, and some of the Handicap Rules, especially the temporary USGA guidance about posting scores for Handicap (updated on 24 June)

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rulesarticles/covid-19-rules-and-handicapping-faqs.html

I hadn't noticed that new guidance had been released, but as some of the COVID-related restrictions are eased, it makes sense that the Ruling Bodies adapt to the changing circumstances. The Rules of Golf have not been changed, that is clear, even with the restrictions in place. But the USGA's long-time idea of "capturing" as many scores as possible for Handicap calculation leads them to be somewhat flexible with the posting requirements.

[rogolf]

See this also,https://www.randa.org/en/theranda/initiatives/golf-during-covid-19

[Buzzkill]

I’m running a league through this strange time with foam noodles in the cup - we’re still playing playing by USGA/R&A rules, it’s not holed until it’s in the cup!

[antip]

I saw the flagstick bounce out made putts all last year, pre-Covid. It happens. A lot. I’ll bet these guys pulled the flag all last year and are just now seeing what a horrible idea leaving the flag in is. In my event today we had 2 more birdie putts hit the flag and stay out. It happens all the time.

Your practical experience and mine could not be more different. If I had your experience, I'd be pulling the pin (assuming a choice). Pre-Covid, around here, the considerable majority left the pin in - with an age-related profile: senior events 90+%; regular club golf 75%; young elite golf 25% . But in 18 months of data, on 15 different courses, I've seen the ball from a putt bounce off the flagstick precisely twice, once to me, once when refereeing. The refereeing one was particularly interesting - at a higher level local event with a good looking putt from 3 feet, nice smooth not fast pace, hit not quite in centre of flagstick on a straight putt but came out again. The player was a friend and when I commiserated with him he said it also happened earlier same day. My conclusion - the risk is correlated to the type of pins in use - that course had a somewhat heavier metal pin. But even on that course, the other 300 putt outs I witnessed on a few games there it didn't happen. The only other experience I had was on my course, strongly sloping 3 footer hit quite firm, on the sharp turn the ball glanced the flagstick lower side, then lip and bounced out - ie I think the main culprit was the mug with the putter rather than the flagstick.

So taking your data on face value, I find it hard to avoid the conclusion your regular play locale has some very unfriendly pins (they are out there), and taking them out to putt is the smarter way to go in that area.

[Augster]

I finally have enough anecdotal data to draw some conclusions why I see many more bounce outs compared to others.

How fast are your greens? The faster the greens, the less speed is needed to hit a putt, say, 15, 20, 30 feet.

Our greens are quite slow. I’d guess 7-8 if they were to be stimped. Because we have to use so much effort for each putt, the ball is rolling faster at the hole if you’re trying to hit it 18 inches past.

On faster greens, and I’ve played elsewhere with much faster greens a bunch this year, I can’t recall a single “stick-out”. On 10, 11, 12 stimp greens a player just doesn’t have to hit it that hard to go 15 feet. Especially downhill. I don’t know how many downhill putts I’ve left short at my course this year, but it’s way too many. On faster greens with a downhill putt, I’m just tapping the ball and it creeps past the hole. A tap like that at my course I’d be left with a 3-foot downhill putt for my next one.

My conclusion is, if you play on a course with fast greens, you simply won’t see many stick outs. If you play on greens that require “effort” to get it to the hole, don’t be surprised when you miss the middle of the stick by 2mms and the ball bounces out. It’s not uncommon.

[antip]

I think you are correct in identifying green speed as a key variable. Here they are very rarely less than 10 on the stimp. And at times on some courses if you are above the hole consistently you are going to have a horrible score - just start the ball moving and it will not stop in less than 8 feet. Chipping to that green I would prefer to have the ball 8 feet past rather than 4 feet past.

[oikos1]

Excellent. It's the one rule of golf that should never be questioned. It's either holed or it isn't. Trying to determine speed and would've/could've/should've among competitors is ridiculous.

[Buzzkill]

?

[anythingfinite]

We have the lift outs at my course and I have yet to see one bounce out that would have stayed in with just the pin. I had dozens of putts bounce out with the inverted cups, even dribblers that barely fell in. So happy to be away from that situation. My group played to a consensus of whether or not it would have stayed in and almost always had unanimous agreement.

[SecondandGoal]

It's happened with my group a couple times. We've started rotating it so the lifter is facing away from the person putting.

 

[anythingfinite]

Ours has 2 sides.

[LeoLeo99]

My course has a liner insert so the ball only goes down about 3/4 inch. I've seen slow rolling balls roll right over and out the other side.

[Shilgy]

We currently have the noodles but are getting these. Seems much better from limited practice so far.

 

[Justmuckit]

They have these at Boulders North and I hated them. If the wire is on the side you're putting from, you better die the putt in.

[Augster]

This is correct. Also, lifting with the putter, the wire got stuck and we lifted 3 flags right out of the hole in the first 5 holes. At that point we stopped using it and just pulled the ball out. PITA.

The above double ended “T” lifter worked great. Except the bottom of the flagstick is so thick only a ball creeping to the cup will actually stay in. It turns the hole into one of those basketball shooting games you see at fairs on the midway. The ball “will” go through the hoop, it just has to be shot perfectly. With the extra-fat-bottomed T-lifter, you’ve got no chance on any putt that catches the stick and was going to go 2 feet or more by.

I have a “novel” idea. How about we just start pulling flags again and stop with this nonsense? Simple.

[Newby]

The new PuttBuddy - brilliant

[Mr. Bean]

'I have a “novel” idea. How about we just start pulling flags again and stop with this nonsense? Simple.'

We stopped being paranoid and have been doing that for some weeks now. Actually our pins at my home club have an attachment at the end of the pin which lifts the ball(s) up when pin is lifted. I still prefer to remove the pin (except for long putts) as I have had my share of balls bouncing off from the pin. Also I feel much more comfortable to putt while seeing the entire hole, looks bigger somehow.