Blade users thread (NO DEBATING CLUBHEADS! NO Buy Sell Trade!)

[bladehunter]

Thank you for the replies ladies and gents.

 

I appreciate those who continue to document their blade journey without taking pot shots at the golf industry, club designers and golf equipment.

 

I, like many others, could do without the 'white noise'.

 

Happy New year.

 

Sorry if I was overly defensive, I am sorta responsible in a way for this thread. To follow duffer, everything you said and questioned really was fine, and despite some of the physics lessons, we all mostly agree that it is no where near as real world important as forum important. I am a very socially liberal person, I am very much about NOT enforcing curbed dialogue....but with the platform we have been provided, it simply isn't tolerated by the people that profit from our participation which creates content and traffic that drives the site. Now in fairness, sponsor money and site image means a lot more business wise than a popular blades CB argument and that argument truly cant happen here with people getting on like clowns and internet psychos, which again in fairness is always the final destination of that which is not debated in this thread.

 

Happy new year guys!!! I am off to the orange bowl!

 

 

Orange bowl is fine. Just don't end the night in the white bowl ! Achacha!

[Willian70]

Not to change the subject as of late but has anyone found a line on a set of MB2s? Raw? 3-pw KBS black nickel shafts? Santa forgot to bring mine to my house...or just some Raw blade goodness?

[PeanutsDaddy]

Thank you for the replies ladies and gents.

 

I appreciate those who continue to document their blade journey without taking pot shots at the golf industry, club designers and golf equipment.

 

I, like many others, could do without the 'white noise'.

 

Happy New year.

 

Sorry if I was overly defensive, I am sorta responsible in a way for this thread. To follow duffer, everything you said and questioned really was fine, and despite some of the physics lessons, we all mostly agree that it is no where near as real world important as forum important. I am a very socially liberal person, I am very much about NOT enforcing curbed dialogue....but with the platform we have been provided, it simply isn't tolerated by the people that profit from our participation which creates content and traffic that drives the site. Now in fairness, sponsor money and site image means a lot more business wise than a popular blades CB argument and that argument truly cant happen here with people getting on like clowns and internet psychos, which again in fairness is always the final destination of that which is not debated in this thread.

 

Happy new year guys!!! I am off to the orange bowl!

 

 

Orange bowl is fine. Just don't end the night in the white bowl ! Achacha!

 

 

Booooo!

 

: )

[NRJyzr]

Happy New Year, too. And I for one appreciate those that can post without taking a pot shot at other posters in this thread. That's just as much 'white noise' as anything.

 

You've been given your platform. Carry on.

 

Blade users have the platform is my point. We all should just carry on and post our blades journeys. (And if part of said journey is discovering the technical sham that is "forgiveness", so be it.)

 

 

My take is that perimeter weighting does what it's touted to do; reduce twisting on off center hits. I've hit enough shots on the periphery of the club face in my own personal testing (which is a lot harder to do than you'd think, *trying* to mis hit your irons that badly) to notice the relative twisting, or its lack.

(full disclosure note: I've also mis hit my irons that badly unintentionally, I'm not trying to say I don't, lol)

 

Where I differ from the "accepted wisdom" of said perimeter weighting is that I don't feel it matters nearly as much as some would have you believe with respect to overall performance.

 

Ultimately, aside from my obvious Club Ho tendencies, I play the clubs I play because they're the ones I've found to work best for me.

 

Time for the Forrest Gump finish: that's all I got to say about that

(don't want to derail this any more than I have just done, towards the "versus discussions" that we should be avoiding) ;)

 

And my take is that it is completely technical in explaining that perimeter weighting just changes the FEEL of an off center hit because the theory of perimeter weighting "twisting less" is based on a FALSE premise, which is that the head can be treated as a free floating object. This is a complete and ignorant violation of the structural physics of the club and golfer. Therefore the physics and theory MUST include the shaft attachment AND the point forces on the local structure of the head. And if the moment of interia is to be considered at all, then it MUST be considered from the perspective of the source of power which is the golfer himself, and with this considered then a high MOI clubhead is BAD in that now the golfer must do MORE WORK to square that high MOI clubhead relative to a lower one. This is more theoretically correct and sound than the "twist less" "theory", and again perimeter weighting will technically make mishits just FEEL less harsh so it is also explainable that golfers just perceive this instead of an actual benefit. Based on my personal testing, this is all CBs/high perimeter weighted clubs do, besides hurting workability, dispersion, and fat/thin mishits.

 

And even if the "theory" of "twist less" from off center contact helps, then that is just that single forgiving scenario for when you have a square face angle but path is off center. But there is an unforgiving flipside to this in the other just as likely scenario when the face is at a non square angle and the errors that arise from this mishit physics. In this scenario the head that twists less maintains the mishit angle more but the lower MOI head will twist back to square more easily and thus "help" that type of mishit. The same supposed physics of twisting more and less plays both ways in terms of "forgiveness".

 

And are my physics and experience any more significant than what you experienced yourself about not noticing much significant benefit from perimeter weigting? Likely not and I admit myself that I get no tangible benefit from blades on all but my best ball striking days. But my point is just that the theory of perimeter weighting based on a free floating clubhead doesn't hold water and there are just as many detrimental theories about perimeter weighting that don't require any false premises to justify with a theory.

 

So anyway, NRJ, my good friend, even though we may not agree, with this post we can simply exchange our own personal blades journey experiences with each other. It is always nice to have a DISCUSSION with you!

 

 

When I was first on golf forums in the late 90s, gear effect was discussed from time to time. One aspect that baffled folks was how one could get the heel fades, because with the shaft attached to the clubhead at the heel, it seems much more difficult to accept its ability to twist. Twisting from toe hits was easy. LOL

 

High speed photography changed the game. Something was seen. I don't know if they were the first to discover it, but I remember it being said the engineers at Matrix Composites were generally mentioned with a certain prominence. What they discovered was that the clubhead behaved unlike everyone had accepted previously. In the dynamics of the swing, the clubhead behaves not as though it's attached, but almost as though it's on a string. It rotates about the CG on imperfect contact, not about the shaft.

 

I've seen some of this myself, but it's not easy to find on the intarwebs. Part of that is because companies aren't known for sharing such testing, but another aspect, this discussion took place 12-15 years ago. Largely before Youtube existed. Not likely to be much video uploaded. ;)

 

I went looking for a video I found most interesting, one that I'd seen a month or more ago, it showed a healthy number of shot impacts, possibly from the Tours. One I found particularly interesting was a behind the golfer/down the target line view, and it apparently was a heeled shot. The clubhead twisted considerably counterclockwise.

 

I don't expect you to accept this based on my comments, especially because you are in the Unbelief camp. However, I would submit that virtually everyone involved in the golf industry does. Were it marketing folks doing the talking, it would be easy to discount, but we're talking about club designers and engineers. :)

 

If I ever find that heel hit, I'll trot it out here again.

 

OK guys, I'm done babbling. Y'all can come back out now, let's talk some blades. :)

[DeNinny]

 

Blade users have the platform is my point. We all should just carry on and post our blades journeys. (And if part of said journey is discovering the technical sham that is "forgiveness", so be it.)

 

 

My take is that perimeter weighting does what it's touted to do; reduce twisting on off center hits. I've hit enough shots on the periphery of the club face in my own personal testing (which is a lot harder to do than you'd think, *trying* to mis hit your irons that badly) to notice the relative twisting, or its lack.

(full disclosure note: I've also mis hit my irons that badly unintentionally, I'm not trying to say I don't, lol)

 

Where I differ from the "accepted wisdom" of said perimeter weighting is that I don't feel it matters nearly as much as some would have you believe with respect to overall performance.

 

Ultimately, aside from my obvious Club Ho tendencies, I play the clubs I play because they're the ones I've found to work best for me.

 

Time for the Forrest Gump finish: that's all I got to say about that

(don't want to derail this any more than I have just done, towards the "versus discussions" that we should be avoiding) ;)

 

And my take is that it is completely technical in explaining that perimeter weighting just changes the FEEL of an off center hit because the theory of perimeter weighting "twisting less" is based on a FALSE premise, which is that the head can be treated as a free floating object. This is a complete and ignorant violation of the structural physics of the club and golfer. Therefore the physics and theory MUST include the shaft attachment AND the point forces on the local structure of the head. And if the moment of interia is to be considered at all, then it MUST be considered from the perspective of the source of power which is the golfer himself, and with this considered then a high MOI clubhead is BAD in that now the golfer must do MORE WORK to square that high MOI clubhead relative to a lower one. This is more theoretically correct and sound than the "twist less" "theory", and again perimeter weighting will technically make mishits just FEEL less harsh so it is also explainable that golfers just perceive this instead of an actual benefit. Based on my personal testing, this is all CBs/high perimeter weighted clubs do, besides hurting workability, dispersion, and fat/thin mishits.

 

And even if the "theory" of "twist less" from off center contact helps, then that is just that single forgiving scenario for when you have a square face angle but path is off center. But there is an unforgiving flipside to this in the other just as likely scenario when the face is at a non square angle and the errors that arise from this mishit physics. In this scenario the head that twists less maintains the mishit angle more but the lower MOI head will twist back to square more easily and thus "help" that type of mishit. The same supposed physics of twisting more and less plays both ways in terms of "forgiveness".

 

And are my physics and experience any more significant than what you experienced yourself about not noticing much significant benefit from perimeter weigting? Likely not and I admit myself that I get no tangible benefit from blades on all but my best ball striking days. But my point is just that the theory of perimeter weighting based on a free floating clubhead doesn't hold water and there are just as many detrimental theories about perimeter weighting that don't require any false premises to justify with a theory.

 

So anyway, NRJ, my good friend, even though we may not agree, with this post we can simply exchange our own personal blades journey experiences with each other. It is always nice to have a DISCUSSION with you!

 

 

When I was first on golf forums in the late 90s, gear effect was discussed from time to time. One aspect that baffled folks was how one could get the heel fades, because with the shaft attached to the clubhead at the heel, it seems much more difficult to accept its ability to twist. Twisting from toe hits was easy. LOL

 

High speed photography changed the game. Something was seen. I don't know if they were the first to discover it, but I remember it being said the engineers at Matrix Composites were generally mentioned with a certain prominence. What they discovered was that the clubhead behaved unlike everyone had accepted previously. In the dynamics of the swing, the clubhead behaves not as though it's attached, but almost as though it's on a string. It rotates about the CG on imperfect contact, not about the shaft.

 

I've seen some of this myself, but it's not easy to find on the intarwebs. Part of that is because companies aren't known for sharing such testing, but another aspect, this discussion took place 12-15 years ago. Largely before Youtube existed. Not likely to be much video uploaded. ;)

 

I went looking for a video I found most interesting, one that I'd seen a month or more ago, it showed a healthy number of shot impacts, possibly from the Tours. One I found particularly interesting was a behind the golfer/down the target line view, and it apparently was a heeled shot. The clubhead twisted considerably counterclockwise.

 

I don't expect you to accept this based on my comments, especially because you are in the Unbelief camp. However, I would submit that virtually everyone involved in the golf industry does. Were it marketing folks doing the talking, it would be easy to discount, but we're talking about club designers and engineers. :)

 

If I ever find that heel hit, I'll trot it out here again.

 

OK guys, I'm done babbling. Y'all can come back out now, let's talk some blades. :)

 

I am in the 'can't violate the laws of physics camp'. If a theory violates the laws of physics, which in the case of even having the remotest thought of neglecting the physics of the shaft, then I'm sorry but it doesn't happen in reality. So therefore the clubhead twisting around it's own CG is a blatant violation of the physics which is why I already know it is fact that it won't happen.

 

I would love to see that video and LOL the "unbiased" "experts" that you mentioned have analyzed this supposed clubhead on a string effect. And you are right in that high speed video confirms a lot of things, and already I have seen enough video myself to confirm all the physics I am explaining in that the shaft does in fact play a key role in supporting the clubface angle during impact. When you look closely at it, the face does ever so slightly get pushed open and then often post impact you see the face kick closed because again that torque from impact on the face is being released. I could add more details than this, but under no circumstances is the clubhead twisting like a free floating object DURING impact EVER observed. Sorry, but I've already seen in numerous videos that the shaft does bear much of the load (as do the golfer's hands) of resisting the twist ofbthe clubface while in contact with the ball. I already see the physics that I'm explaining, so again I would love to be in the conversation with folks that see otherwise! In particular anybody that thinks there is video proof of a clubhead behaving as if it is independent of the shaft attachment! Please let's analyze and discuss together! Same exact shot, blade and CB!

[justasgood]

Not to change the subject as of late but has anyone found a line on a set of MB2s? Raw? 3-pw KBS black nickel shafts? Santa forgot to bring mine to my house...or just some Raw blade goodness?

 

I have your irons(DG tour issue x100)

 

3-pw in excellent condition

 

Shoot me a pm if you want to make a deal

[NRJyzr]

DeNinny, I forgot one thing in the gear effect discussion. A fairly important aspect, lol. Gear effect is woods only, the CG needs to be back from the club face more than can be accomplished in an iron.

 

Not to say there isn't twisting in an iron , but it doesn't produce the same effect.

[Kingcat990]

Bladehunter, do you have a photo of your kyoei blanks?

[DeNinny]

DeNinny, I forgot one thing in the gear effect discussion. A fairly important aspect, lol. Gear effect is woods only, the CG needs to be back from the club face more than can be accomplished in an iron.

 

Not to say there isn't twisting in an iron , but it doesn't produce the same effect.

 

I'm aware of the supposed importance of CG location as it pertains to the unequivocally false (as NEVER seen on high speed video) "gear effect". My point was that of perimeter weighting (as was your original point to me) supposedly helping a CB iron "twist less". But my point still stands whether it is about the "gear effect" or perimeter weighting "forgiveness". Both theories violate the laws of structural physics and so that is why they have not and will never be seen on video. The shaft and the golfers hands are what keep the clubface square. It will NEVER rotate around its own CG.

[db2]

To tie a couple of recent conversations together, I'm impressed with the performance of the Hogan FW15 on slight toe shots. Solid feel and more importantly, trajectory and peak height are really good. The FW15 has a higher MOI than the majority of blades, but Hogan attributes the performance due to the fact that their clubs have more mass than other clubs in this area. If you view the rear of the club, you can see they have a bit less mass behind the COG/sweet spot than other blades, and less mass around the perimeter than a cavity back.

[craz-e]

Would love to try the FT Worths but I know from previous experience the V sole isn't the best design for me and my dodgy swing.

[db2]

DeNinny, I forgot one thing in the gear effect discussion. A fairly important aspect, lol. Gear effect is woods only, the CG needs to be back from the club face more than can be accomplished in an iron.

 

Not to say there isn't twisting in an iron , but it doesn't produce the same effect.

 

I'm aware of the supposed importance of CG location as it pertains to the unequivocally false (as NEVER seen on high speed video) "gear effect". My point was that of perimeter weighting (as was your original point to me) supposedly helping a CB iron "twist less". But my point still stands whether it is about the "gear effect" or perimeter weighting "forgiveness". Both theories violate the laws of structural physics and so that is why they have not and will never be seen on video. The shaft and the golfers hands are what keep the clubface square. It will NEVER rotate around its own CG.

 

"The clubshaft rotates around the sweet spot"--Homer Kelley

 

He actually believed that the axis that the clubface rotated around was a line from the sweet spot to the first knuckle on your right index finger.

 

Would love to try the FT Worths but I know from previous experience the V sole isn't the best design for me and my dodgy swing.

 

Bummer. I love the V-sole.

[Oldplayer]

I hope one and all have a happy and prosperous 2017. I will be getting there before most of you being in the land downunder :)

Interesting reading the last few pages. If you would all indulge me I would like to give my 2 cents.

I suppose I have broad tastes in irons sets have tried playing virtually all types; and you know what, I enjoy them all.

At any given month on the course I am likely to be playing low offset blades, with appropriate shafts of course, or ping g series irons. Or anything in between.

Sometimes I crave that pure feel of a laser 7 iron drawing to the pin from the middle of the face of my forged blade and sometimes I love the fun of hitting high and straight irons that plop down in the middle of the green with my g15's, graphite reg shafts and all.

My point is none of us have to be all or nothing. It is a wonderful game we play and the diversity of the equipment and the different courses we play is one of the most enjoyable and special aspects of what we do.

There are so many ways to make a birdie or a par, or even a bogey, that it all adds up to the game being more interesting than it otherwise may be.

In the end it does not matter too much what I have in my hand. What does matter is that I keep an open mind and keenly follow down all the different paths that keep the game fresh and enjoyable.

For those who read this far thanks for bothering to listen to an old golfer and his thoughts.

[Sir Slicealot]

 

Tennis anyone ?

 

 

No thanks. I'm busy ditching my 3 wood for a hybrid. Maybe next week.

 

You are masterfully witty Sir! Tip o' the cap.

[DeNinny]

DeNinny, I forgot one thing in the gear effect discussion. A fairly important aspect, lol. Gear effect is woods only, the CG needs to be back from the club face more than can be accomplished in an iron.

 

Not to say there isn't twisting in an iron , but it doesn't produce the same effect.

 

I'm aware of the supposed importance of CG location as it pertains to the unequivocally false (as NEVER seen on high speed video) "gear effect". My point was that of perimeter weighting (as was your original point to me) supposedly helping a CB iron "twist less". But my point still stands whether it is about the "gear effect" or perimeter weighting "forgiveness". Both theories violate the laws of structural physics and so that is why they have not and will never be seen on video. The shaft and the golfers hands are what keep the clubface square. It will NEVER rotate around its own CG.

 

"The clubshaft rotates around the sweet spot"--Homer Kelley

 

He actually believed that the axis that the clubface rotated around was a line from the sweet spot to the first knuckle on your right index finger.

 

 

That point at the first knuckle is just one point of leverage in keeping the clubface square and admittedly that is where the brunt of the force on the clubface is going to be resisted. However due to the shaft attachment being at only one side of the point of force (i.e. the point of impact) on the clubface, then the shaft itself is going to be a rotation point and the hands are going to feel a twist in addition to a straight bend at that knuckle. But the twist is at the shaft, not the CG or any other part of the face. The reason for this is because the shaft is the only physical point of resistance to a twisting clubface. All force on it ends up concentrating there, again because that is where the resistance is.

[Bigmean]

I hope one and all have a happy and prosperous 2017. I will be getting there before most of you being in the land downunder :)

Interesting reading the last few pages. If you would all indulge me I would like to give my 2 cents.

I suppose I have broad tastes in irons sets have tried playing virtually all types; and you know what, I enjoy them all.

At any given month on the course I am likely to be playing low offset blades, with appropriate shafts of course, or ping g series irons. Or anything in between.

Sometimes I crave that pure feel of a laser 7 iron drawing to the pin from the middle of the face of my forged blade and sometimes I love the fun of hitting high and straight irons that plop down in the middle of the green with my g15's, graphite reg shafts and all.

My point is none of us have to be all or nothing. It is a wonderful game we play and the diversity of the equipment and the different courses we play is one of the most enjoyable and special aspects of what we do.

There are so many ways to make a birdie or a par, or even a bogey, that it all adds up to the game being more interesting than it otherwise may be.

In the end it does not matter too much what I have in my hand. What does matter is that I keep an open mind and keenly follow down all the different paths that keep the game fresh and enjoyable.

For those who read this far thanks for bothering to listen to an old golfer and his thoughts.

 

Really well said on how at least I feel about it! I only "side" with blades on this site when it comes up because I feel the perception is incorrect, that is really all, so I voice the other side of the coin.

 

I had as much fun as I could without finding my head in a white bowl, what a game!

 

And does it make me a ho because I missed the Miura red t irons that I feel like I have a large sum of golf funds in escrow?

 

Good night folks, that's all I got.

[DeNinny]

Bigmean the reason the perception of blades is incorrect is because the understanding of the "science" of "forgiveness" is incorrect (largely due to HALF-TRUTH "science" by forgiving club manufacturers). The other side of the coin is that there are at least as many technical issues with "forgiving" irons as there are supposed benefits. And the only way to fix these technical issues is through a blade design. The ignorance of this is where the incorrect perception of blades comes from.

[Rocuronium]

Any suggestions for blades for someone whose misses are out on the toe? I almost never miss on the heel. I've heard Hogan Ft worth are god for this. Any other sugggestions?

[Whiskey_Business]

Newer member here just checking in and I remember this thread when it first started page one....glad I stopped wasting my time keeping up with the trolls and all but instead practiced my "swing" with my beloved mp68s.

 

I'm a fairly newb golfer compared to most here and 26 capper. I live in the Bay Area and I'm taking CASH BETS on any "BLADE HATER" in this thread...Mano a mano...back it up or stfu...no questions asked...cash talks...pm me. Fellow wrx members to ref/judge

[Whiskey_Business]

Newer member here just checking in and I remember this thread when it first started page one....glad I stopped wasting my time keeping up with the trolls and all but instead practiced my "swing" with my beloved mp68s.

 

I'm a fairly newb golfer compared to most here and 26 capper. I live in the Bay Area and I'm taking CASH BETS on any "BLADE HATER" in this thread...Mano a mano...back it up or stfu...no questions asked...cash talks...pm me. Fellow wrx members to ref/judge

[avguy]

Any suggestions for blades for someone whose misses are out on the toe? I almost never miss on the heel. I've heard Hogan Ft worth are god for this. Any other sugggestions?

 

Never tried them, but the Cobra Fly-Z Pros have tungsten inserts in the toe. If I was going into those, to keep it pure in MB, one should order them straight thru the OEM site to specifiy as MB, each head. Otherwise, they are a blended set from muscles to partial cavity to cavity.

 

FWIW, I miss out on the toe also. I never thought of correcting it thru my clubs so I will let you journey into that fun world..... :tongue:

[db2]

Any suggestions for blades for someone whose misses are out on the toe? I almost never miss on the heel. I've heard Hogan Ft worth are god for this. Any other sugggestions?

 

If you want a blade with a traditional heel-to-toe length, I think the FW15 is it. You can also consider blades like the Srixon 945/965 that have tungsten in the toe. My guess is this would help if it adds mass to where you miss on the toe, as well as if it it moves the sweet spot more towards the center of the clubface. The sweet spot for most blades is on the heel-side of the center of the clubface which is why toe strikes can be so penal with blades.

 

Another thing that helps to reduce carry loss on mishits is a lower COG. Blade makers are moving the COG lower within a set of clubs to help increase launch in the long and mid-irons. I've hit the Fourteen FH1000 and thought that it launched high for a blade. I spoke to a rep at Fourteen and he said that it launched higher than their player's cavity at the time. The Yonex N1-MB also intrigues me.

[justasgood]

Any suggestions for blades for someone whose misses are out on the toe? I almost never miss on the heel. I've heard Hogan Ft worth are god for this. Any other sugggestions?

 

Nike vapor pro. But they feel like cheap cast pot metal.

[BCULAW]

Bigmean - how did you enjoy the game? I'm an FSU alum, and a big Noles fan and didn't give our boys much of a chance. Having Peppers out didn't hurt either. I thought it was a phenomenal game, though. UM has heart and as much physical toughness as any team in the country - as you would expect from a Harbaugh coached team. Had to have been a great game to watch "in person."

[SBH9458]

That had to have been a tremendous game to see in person. Overused term, but it had to have been an electric atmosphere in the stadium. A lot of fun to watch. I'm a Harbaugh fan and a Jimbo fan, so outcome for me was less personal than a grad of Michigan or FSU.

[Rocuronium]

Thanks for the suggestions!

[mahonie]

Any suggestions for blades for someone whose misses are out on the toe? I almost never miss on the heel. I've heard Hogan Ft worth are god for this. Any other sugggestions?

 

I am posting this as a former 'toe misser.' I was in a clinic with a pro a few years back who asked what my miss was. I told him it was contact near the toe and he asked me to hit three shots. I hit two okay and one out of the toe. His advice? Stand half-inch closer to the ball at address and try to feel that you are pulling to the left on the follow through. The first bit of advice is obvious. The second bit was to try and help my position at impact which is basically 'held off.' He was trying to instigate a better release of my wrists through impact. After a few shots, I was getting that pure feeling from strikes right out of the middle. My ballstriking since has been a lot better although I easily slip back into my old bad habits!

 

Clubwise, any blades with tungsten in the toe or the Nike Vapor Pros might help. I tested the Nikes when I bought my MP4s and they were pretty close in the final reckoning, pushed into third by the Cobra Fly Z Pros.

[bladehunter]

Bladehunter, do you have a photo of your kyoei blanks?

 

Sure. I'll post in just w few .. Why ? You spot Them? ( I hope I hope )

[Sir edward of putternut]

Didnt someone here recently get a set of kzg blade(more muscleback) heads? I just bought a set of heads off the swamp and have a couple questions...

[Bigmean]

Bigmean - how did you enjoy the game? I'm an FSU alum, and a big Noles fan and didn't give our boys much of a chance. Having Peppers out didn't hurt either. I thought it was a phenomenal game, though. UM has heart and as much physical toughness as any team in the country - as you would expect from a Harbaugh coached team. Had to have been a great game to watch "in person."

 

I am actually a big UM fan (miami, and michigan) so I hate FSU bu default of being a canes fan. No peppers killed them, and really input the most blame on the qb, he was awful 90% of game. Even the defense giving up massive plays is whatever. I will say though, even though they lost , we had baller seats and it was an amazing football game, right down to the extra point run back. So as far as me being a secondary blue fan, it sucks they lost but I can't complain at all on the experience, I am not sure how really crazy the second half played on TV, but live it was the most exciting half of football I have seen. Really awesome, and my dad lived in Ann arbor and is a big blue fan and it was his xmas present so other than the loss it was overall just a ridiculous time.