Question for Blade Players

[tedbronson]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1440255340' post='12188814']
I've posted this before in other threads but its been awhile...

The real question is how much does the "implied" forgiveness actually lower your score. For me personally, I have to ask myself how many times do I actually hit an
iron into a green each round. And by iron, I mean 4 iron to 8 iron because I don't personally think that forgiveness matters in the least from inside 150 yards.

So full swing, 4-8 iron. Usually 2 par 3's, possibly one shot on a par 5 in two, and then possibly on 4-5 par 4's that I actually have outside of 160 after my tee shot. The rest of my approaches are with wedges or hybrids. (I don't consider wedges in the "iron" category. )
So for me, I hit iron approaches into greens absolutely max max max 10 shots per round. Usually closer to 6 or 7. So lets say that I flush 3 of those, slightly miss 3 of those, and hit 2-4 of them poorly.

The poor ones are really the ones that make the LEAST difference. Blade or shovel won't matter at all because both will leave me with a similar type of short game shot. My short game is going to determine whether I get up and down on those, not the level of forgiveness.

The flush ones will lead to better birdie looks with the blades because of flight control.

And the slight misses will likely be better with the shovels.

So basically, Shovels have a chance of saving me possibly 1/10 of one shot on 3 different occasions during a round. But they will cost me about the same on 3 other occasions . About a wash.

People really over estimate the value of forgiveness with irons. Rather than have a debate, why not simply go to the course and do a test. Hit 5 balls with 2 different clubs from the same distance and actually see how close to the target you are. Repeat this a bunch of times and come up with and answer for yourself.

One more thing: I've always found it funny that the same people that say (using Titleist for this example) no one should be using the MB because they are simply too hard to hit, refuse to hit the AP1. They'll swear by the CB or the AP2 but even for them, the AP1 is "too big." How can it be too big if it offers "extra forgiveness?" LOL

The simple answer is that forgiveness is not everything and really, it doesn't actually affect your score by more than a shot a round.
[/quote]


Nice post. Even if you underestimated it, and GIs save a high cap 6 or 7 strokes a round- so what? Really- what's the difference between shooting 98 and 92? You still suck. Might as well play with something that doesn't look like a shovel and actually learn a little while you're shooting the 90s.

[Wknd_Warrior]

I don't really know but I accept the distinct possibility that unless the GI clubs were really clumsy I'd probably shoot a couple strokes better over all, especially on bad days.

[Tarkata]

After all the years, all the foolishness, it is really a lot of noise in the end. Makes little difference but then, you know, you really should have a somewhat positive disposition towards your clubs.

[Bigmean]

Never heard it out like that, but I like it and agree. You need to, or should, have a positive disposition to your clubs. That will matter more in terms of score than the design of the head.

I traditionally have had a set of blades and cbs I get along with well. I tried the whole ho thing, err ahh, collection thing, and I wound up only wanting to play my current set as it is the set that speaks to me, the one that I just can't see not playing with. Now I have a few record low rounds this summer with them, and that is nothing short of the work I have put in, but I have a bit of a confidence in them now and after a season, they feel like mine.

[puttingmatt]

I own the 850 forged, and the MP 4's.
Score well with both, Have not experienced any real advantage in either style of club. Distance simular, trajectories between the two need compensation on my part. Honestly,I seem to play better with the MP 4's. Maybe, just my preference. Please note, grew up playing blades, owned many blade sets.

[Sean2]

The entire "forgiveness" thing is way overblown.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1440172835' post='12183050']
I've bounced back and forth occasionally between a 'blade' and a cavity although I'm not sure about a full GI.

Really, there's not much difference in my scores although it certainly did not get better with a larger head. I think I'm just less comfortable with a larger head as I kinda feel like I can get lost in it. I don't like the idea that I can get drift around at impact a bit before it's clear I've done so. The very few yards of assumed forgiveness (far less than most people probably think) don't add up to any real scoring benefit. If you miss your target by 10 yards instead of 12, that just doesn't add up to anything at the end of the day. And if you're calculating your carry distance over a hazard by a yard or two...well then 'forgivness' is not the answer to that problem. Additiionally, I'm not a fan of the larger/wider soles on most Gi style clubs but I'm an old dude and grew up playing old crap.

However... if one is a high handicap, there's no question that a larger head and wider sole is going to result in better shots than a smaller one. The 'forgiveness' factor is debatable in scoring though IMO.
[/quote]

I've played GI's or SGI's most of my golfing life but i agree with your post. The only reason i don't play a small iron is because of the 3-4 irons where i just have a hard time looking at the small head. But when i've demo'd them (recently i demo'd the Amp Cell blades) i've found i hit 5-PW pretty much exactly the same as a GI, and 3-4's not poor enough to really hurt me at most courses. My course just happens to have a few long par 3's, some with water in play, and i find the long clubs intimidating

I've been thinking of doing a Vapor combo set. 3-4 with VaporSpeeds, 5 Vapor PC, and the rest blades

[behubbard]

I'm hitting the new (Blades) Ben Hogan FT 15's ....dumped the 3-4 Irons went with Hybrids...
Might be worth a try.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1440172835' post='12183050']
I've bounced back and forth occasionally between a 'blade' and a cavity although I'm not sure about a full GI.

Really, there's not much difference in my scores although it certainly did not get better with a larger head. I think I'm just less comfortable with a larger head as I kinda feel like I can get lost in it. I don't like the idea that I can get drift around at impact a bit before it's clear I've done so. The very few yards of assumed forgiveness (far less than most people probably think) don't add up to any real scoring benefit. If you miss your target by 10 yards instead of 12, that just doesn't add up to anything at the end of the day. And if you're calculating your carry distance over a hazard by a yard or two...well then 'forgivness' is not the answer to that problem. Additiionally, I'm not a fan of the larger/wider soles on most Gi style clubs but I'm an old dude and grew up playing old crap.

However... if one is a high handicap, there's no question that a larger head and wider sole is going to result in better shots than a smaller one. The 'forgiveness' factor is debatable in scoring though IMO.
[/quote]Well said I am an old fart too and learned the game playing blades and like OSR posted earlier it is what fits your eye and feels good to you. Trust me I have tried GI and prerimiter weighted irons and they just do not work for me.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1440273487' post='12189944']
Never heard it out like that, but I like it and agree. You need to, or should, have a positive disposition to your clubs. That will matter more in terms of score than the design of the head.

I traditionally have had a set of blades and cbs I get along with well. I tried the whole ho thing, err ahh, collection thing, and I wound up only wanting to play my current set as it is the set that speaks to me, the one that I just can't see not playing with. Now I have a few record low rounds this summer with them, and that is nothing short of the work I have put in, but I have a bit of a confidence in them now and after a season, they feel like mine.
[/quote]Agree with you 110% if a set of old Macs were not in the bag then there would be a set of 1957 blades or MP-33s in there

[Oldplayer]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1440278825' post='12190308']
The entire "forgiveness" thing is way overblown.
[/quote]
Agree. In addition to that lower scores are more about the driver and short game than about forgiving iron sets in my experience.

[Bigmean]

I have a couple of cb sets coming because I like to have a cb set on hand. I will likely sell off whichever cb set I like least and blade sets I don't use, which I already started doing, and get myself to a more respectable number of iron sets. I am more into the shafts than the fact I am trying some cbs, one set has modus and the other roddio carbon, and they are pretty much blade like anyway with no offset and zero tech. One is miura forged and the other is endo s20, and I have an endo soft wedge I like a lot and wanted to score a cheap set of irons that fit the criteria and found some.

Actually, although cb was something I wanted when looking because my small blades are only blades I care to play so different had to be different, really the cb or style of cb was like least important to me behind offset, size, shafts I wanted to try, sole and top line. I think people get too fixated on the back of the club when the things I just mentioned probably effect your shots or confidence more than the part you cannot see at address, or feel through the ground......kinda silly really, I never got the obsession here for a blade or a cb to be superior or inferior to the other and why all clubs couldn't be seen as clubs with the details that make clubs individual being what is most focused on rather than the category it goes in and what "facts" apply to all clubs in that category like blades are hard to hit and only pros can play them and GI irons will magically make bad shots birdie putts....it is kinda ridiculous if you objectively think about it and hit clubs for yourself without preconceived notions.

[dog flog]

If you just get a decent used set, you can finally and cheaply satisfy your own curiosity on one of the most contentious subjects in the golf gear forums - the merits of blades vs cavity backed or GI irons . Then you can tell us if it really is a big hairy deal or just a storm in a teacup. Personally, I'd say just give me a seven wood, a wedge and a putter and I'd kick Trevino's butt if he used nothing but a taped up Coke bottle and a feathery ball. But I digress...

[T.Beau]

[quote name='Oldplayer' timestamp='1440284310' post='12190844']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1440278825' post='12190308']
The entire "forgiveness" thing is way overblown.
[/quote]
Agree. In addition to that lower scores are more about the driver and short game than about forgiving iron sets in my experience.
[/quote]

i think lower scores are about doing everything better. funny how ya become a better putter when you;re hitting your irons closer to the hole for example as your scores improve

[ph00ny]

I'm probably going to hit them similar to each other. My misses aren't that bad with the 681. Maybe a little short on mis hits but not by much. Also i had a short period where i hit Callaway X12 Pro and as much as i wanted to like them, they just weren't for me at the time. I'm tempted to try out XR Pro but i'm just too fond of my 681s

[mahonie]

Reading all the threads on this subject a little doubt crept into my mind that perhaps my MP4s are 'too much' for me. So armed with several MP4 irons and the matching irons from my set of Mac MT Pro Cs I went to the range to undertake a shoot out earlier this week. The two sets are set up exactly the same with same shafts, loft/lie and even grips. The results confirmed that there is negligible difference between the two sets other than the shots out of the sweet spot with the MP4s were about 5 yards longer. Mishits yielded exactly the same results, although the Macs felt less harsh....possibly because they are 1020 as opposed to 1025E for the Mizzys.

[bladehunter]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1440255340' post='12188814']I've posted this before in other threads but its been awhile...

The real question is how much does the "implied" forgiveness actually lower your score. For me personally, I have to ask myself how many times do I actually hit an
iron into a green each round. And by iron, I mean 4 iron to 8 iron because I don't personally think that forgiveness matters in the least from inside 150 yards.

So full swing, 4-8 iron. Usually 2 par 3's, possibly one shot on a par 5 in two, and then possibly on 4-5 par 4's that I actually have outside of 160 after my tee shot. The rest of my approaches are with wedges or hybrids. (I don't consider wedges in the "iron" category. )
So for me, I hit iron approaches into greens absolutely max max max 10 shots per round. Usually closer to 6 or 7. So lets say that I flush 3 of those, slightly miss 3 of those, and hit 2-4 of them poorly.

The poor ones are really the ones that make the LEAST difference. Blade or shovel won't matter at all because both will leave me with a similar type of short game shot. My short game is going to determine whether I get up and down on those, not the level of forgiveness.

The flush ones will lead to better birdie looks with the blades because of flight control.

And the slight misses will likely be better with the shovels.

So basically, Shovels have a chance of saving me possibly 1/10 of one shot on 3 different occasions during a round. But they will cost me about the same on 3 other occasions . About a wash.

People really over estimate the value of forgiveness with irons. Rather than have a debate, why not simply go to the course and do a test. Hit 5 balls with 2 different clubs from the same distance and actually see how close to the target you are. Repeat this a bunch of times and come up with and answer for yourself.

One more thing: I've always found it funny that the same people that say (using Titleist for this example) no one should be using the MB because they are simply too hard to hit, refuse to hit the AP1. They'll swear by the CB or the AP2 but even for them, the AP1 is "too big." How can it be too big if it offers "extra forgiveness?" LOL

The simple answer is that forgiveness is not everything and really, it doesn't actually affect your score by more than a shot a round.[/quote]


No need for me to add a thing Isaac. Agree 100% . I find myself laughing at times on the course. I start thinking " I only hit an actual iron every 3-4 holes. So what difference does it make ? " Answer it doesn't. That's why my wedges are the most important clubs I own . That and driver. Sprinkle some putts dropping and boom. Low round. Irons. I could score the same with whatever I'm sure. Provided the shaft fit me .

[Wknd_Warrior]

For a lot of players on a lot of courses all you have to do is hit driver and flip wedges. Then its down to surviving the par 3s and the odd longer approach after a bad tee shot.

Growing up the woods were harder to hit than the irons. Back then the first thing you usually started to do right was hit some solid mid to short irons. How times have changed.

[Bigmean]

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1440302420' post='12192184']
[quote name='Oldplayer' timestamp='1440284310' post='12190844']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1440278825' post='12190308']
The entire "forgiveness" thing is way overblown.
[/quote]
Agree. In addition to that lower scores are more about the driver and short game than about forgiving iron sets in my experience.
[/quote]

i think lower scores are about doing everything better. funny how ya become a better putter when you;re hitting your irons closer to the hole for example as your scores improve
[/quote]
I agree. Nothing like closer putts than tighter dispersion and more importantly distance control. I have been a marvel for my average score at iron distance control, granted, my accuracy leaves a lot to be desired, but my distance control has been nice. Makes putts that much closer. Really being pin high most of the time has only helped me to make my life best scoring goals with blades this summer. Someone on the range today asked me if I had a laser, I do but didn't have one. I switched clubs to a 9 and hit a flush shot, then told him quite accurately what the 150 likely was based off it. I couldn't do this with such confidence without having many rounds with my current blade set and a rangefinder to just know what shots are. You don't need to be a pro to have consistent distance, just a repeatable swing and a repeatable iron.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1440373320' post='12195670']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1440302420' post='12192184']
[quote name='Oldplayer' timestamp='1440284310' post='12190844']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1440278825' post='12190308']
The entire "forgiveness" thing is way overblown.
[/quote]
Agree. In addition to that lower scores are more about the driver and short game than about forgiving iron sets in my experience.
[/quote]

i think lower scores are about doing everything better. funny how ya become a better putter when you;re hitting your irons closer to the hole for example as your scores improve
[/quote]
I agree. Nothing like closer putts than tighter dispersion and more importantly distance control. I have been a marvel for my average score at iron distance control, granted, my accuracy leaves a lot to be desired, but my distance control has been nice. Makes putts that much closer. Really being pin high most of the time has only helped me to make my life best scoring goals with blades this summer. Someone on the range today asked me if I had a laser, I do but didn't have one. I switched clubs to a 9 and hit a flush shot, then told him quite accurately what the 150 likely was based off it. I couldn't do this with such confidence without having many rounds with my current blade set and a rangefinder to just know what shots are. You don't need to be a pro to have consistent distance, just a repeatable swing and a repeatable iron.
[/quote]Those last two sentences sums it up in a nutshell period and from me knowing you on here and reading your signature you certainly have the correct tools to achieve just that

[BMC]

Blades and GI both have pluses and minuses. I rarely have to an iron above a 6.
To me, blades are a surgical instrument. If I want to hit a low 7 iron 130 yards right at the pin on a soft green, I feel I can do that with a blade, but not with a GI iron.

[dunn]

I think the lower your hdcp the more it plays a factor......for one the swing is more consistent and so are ydgs, when you start missing greens you normally would hit it can lead to a higher number........on avg blades did cost me but also had some of my lowest rounds with them......for higher hdcp's it doesn't matter

But I know it's not fun slapping at ball all day....mishitting a bunch of shots sucks, and doesn't breed alot of confidence......

I can tell you for sure it's not going to help you more than other type of club and that's the bigger question, play irons that have traits of both a mb and gi, can still control ballflight, looks and feels good but helps you on bad swings or off days......we always heAR and get asked how punishing they are

The question a good golfer would ask is why am I changing, is this going to help or hurt me more, what am I going to gain, what is the real reason I am switching.......leave emotion out of it and think of it strictly as a tool........Ifor the pluses don't outweigh negatives they don't do it....

And that's probably why so few play muscle backs on tour

For avg golfers it's usually an ego thing, unless your ballstriking is very very solid theye is no reason to do it other than your ego......

If a golfers ballstriking is very solid than play whateves

[BMC]

[quote name='dunn' timestamp='1440380568' post='12196364']
I think the lower your hdcp the more it plays a factor......for one the swing is more consistent and so are ydgs, when you start missing greens you normally would hit it can lead to a higher number........on avg blades did cost me but also had some of my lowest rounds with them......for higher hdcp's it doesn't matter

But I know it's not fun slapping at ball all day....mishitting a bunch of shots sucks, and doesn't breed alot of confidence......

I can tell you for sure it's not going to help you more than other type of club and that's the bigger question, play irons that have traits of both a mb and gi, can still control ballflight, looks and feels good but helps you on bad swings or off days......we always heAR and get asked how punishing they are

The question a good golfer would ask is why am I changing, is this going to help or hurt me more, what am I going to gain, what is the real reason I am switching.......leave emotion out of it and think of it strictly as a tool........Ifor the pluses don't outweigh negatives they don't do it....

And that's probably why so few play muscle backs on tour
[/quote]
Good post. Modern players CBs, and especially forged ones, will do most everything a MB will do for a good player.
If someone is say a 15 hdcp and would like to be a single, MBs aren't going to get you there.

I play and like MBs because that's what I learned with in the 80s. I would not recommend MBs to a new player.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='nowitski41' timestamp='1440164010' post='12182074']
If you were to switch out your blades for a set of GI irons (i.e. RSi1s) with the exact same fitting specs would you shoot a higher score? Would you shoot the same? I assume that you wouldn't shoot better. Or would you?

I have the RSi1s and am wondering if a change would really help me. I went from GI to Ping i30 to Ping Anser Forged. My game peaked with the i30's and got worse with the Anser's. So I decided to go staight GI and now my hdc is the lowest it's ever been at 11.7. Mostly due to the work I put in but equipment is somewhere in the equation. I'm just trying to figure out how much difference equipment actually makes.
[/quote]

i30s ???

Unlike all these magnificent ball strikers here you couldn't possibly convince me I'd lose fewer than 3-4 strokes a round if I switched to blades.

All kinds of single digits handicappers admitted, on an old thread here, they strike it pure around 30-40% of the time. The rest ?

So unless you're like a certain guy here that hits the SS 80% of the time,,,,,,,,, you'd probably be better off with some sort of CB.


[quote name='tedbronson' timestamp='1440265879' post='12189502']
Nice post. Even if you underestimated it, and GIs save a high cap 6 or 7 strokes a round- so what? Really- what's the difference between shooting 98 and 92? You still suck. Might as well play with something that doesn't look like a shovel and [u][b]actually learn a little while you're shooting the 90s.[/b][/u]
[/quote]

Whew !!!

For a second there I thought you were going to say the blades would make you concentrate more.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1440266410' post='12189526']
I don't really know but I accept the distinct possibility that unless the GI clubs were really clumsy I'd probably shoot a couple strokes better over all, especially on bad days.
[/quote]

[attachment=2921568:diogenes.jpg]

[T.Beau]

[quote name='BMC' timestamp='1440380342' post='12196334']
Blades and GI both have pluses and minuses. I rarely have to an iron above a 6.
To me, blades are a surgical instrument. If I want to hit a low 7 iron 130 yards right at the pin on a soft green, I feel I can do that with a blade, but not with a GI iron.
[/quote]

problem is that most of the so called advantages of blades are glorified, mystical, mythical, and contrived or just perceived reality which most usually does not match real world reality.

it's been proven that the advantage of playing blades is for the POSSIBLE 3 feet better dispersion from 160 yards side to side and the POSSIBLE 6 feet better dispersion front to back BUT ONLY on a perfect strike which is exceedingly rare for almost all golfers.

everything else is BIG advantage GI, other than ball flight which is a wash and workability which is a wash assuming the blade is struck as well as the GI iron (which is unlikely)..if not perfectly struck, then once again, big advantage GI

i think that irons that are easier to flush hit are easier to flush hit and that it is better to flush hit than miss hit. i also dont claim to be smarter than the manufacturers who think that irons designed for very advanced ball strikers are best used by advanced ball strikers. but realize that some wrxers /think they are/ smarter than manufacturers and industry experts.

have a nice day

[T.Beau]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1440388800' post='12197096']


i30s ???

Unlike all these magnificent ball strikers here you couldn't possibly convince me I'd lose fewer than 3-4 strokes a round if I switched to blades.

All kinds of single digits handicappers admitted, on an old thread here, they strike it pure around 30-40% of the time. The rest ?

So unless you're like a certain guy here that hits the SS 80% of the time,,,,,,,,, you'd probably be better off with some sort of CB.




[/quote]

me to..for all the obvious reasons

i also dont buy into the theory that just because someone learns w. blades, they should stay with blades. i learned w. blades, and i think it doesnt make sense to be so inflexible as to not take advantage of the modern gear and adjust to how the courses have changed over the years...unlike other wrxers who hit it so sublime and so far, i end up using all the clubs in my bag on the courses i play and dont think golf is a very easy game to be good at

[Volcanicstrad37]

Honest question for those who are adamantly opposed to blades. If you are a high spin, high ball flight players with a strong ss, what non blade iron can you play that will allow low ball flight shots to get out of trouble? One reason I play blades is for those shots, I can take my brothers ping G series iron and not hit a low hook out of trouble, it goes too high.

[ph00ny]

[quote name='Volcanicstrad37' timestamp='1440426710' post='12198420']
Honest question for those who are adamantly opposed to blades. If you are a high spin, high ball flight players with a strong ss, what non blade iron can you play that will allow low ball flight shots to get out of trouble? One reason I play blades is for those shots, I can take my brothers ping G series iron and not hit a low hook out of trouble, it goes too high.
[/quote]

Clubs with stronger loft? For an example my irons have very weak lofts even compared against today's players clubs so i'm sure i can benefit a little from stronger lofts.
Honestly, if you hit everything high no matter the club, i don't think clubs going to make a huge difference. I hit my blades very high too even with long irons

[T.Beau]

[quote name='Volcanicstrad37' timestamp='1440426710' post='12198420']
Honest question for those who are adamantly opposed to blades. If you are a high spin, high ball flight players with a strong ss, what non blade iron can you play that will allow low ball flight shots to get out of trouble? One reason I play blades is for those shots, I can take my brothers ping G series iron and not hit a low hook out of trouble, it goes too high.
[/quote]

i;m not adamantly opposed to blades, but suggest that most any iron is capable of hitting that sort of shot. it typically requires a more severe adjustment and takes some practice with irons which are unfamiliar. to balance this out there is an advantage to the g series iron over a blade when you wish to flight the ball very high (over trees and pin tucked close to a bunker) the g series do tend to flight the ball higher in a stock shot for sure. thats how they are designed