Backstopping needs to be stopped

[bladehunter]

This is cheating just like in Nascar when drivers allow other drivers from the same ownership to block and/or draft behind them in order to beat third party drivers. Remember in Talladega nights? Finau and Kokrak basically did a little Shake and Bake.

 

 

Lol. That's not Cheating either. They are teammates.

[OldTomMorris]

So if it's not players running up and marking their balls, exactly what do you mean when you say "every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario"? What other kind of efforts were they making?

 

In recent times there have been incidents highlighted on Twitter which I remember seeing while watching coverage where the players have been at or around the green and chip shots, bunkers shots etc have been played with a ball adjacent to the whole - in these incidents there was no conceivable reason for the ball not to be marked. Historically the ball would have been marked in these instances.

 

Geoff Shackleford has been highlighting this for a while now. I get it that not everyone sees it the same but its definitely becoming more of a common practice so if anything it will be more of an issue in the future especially if someone happens to win an event after doing this.

 

Of course, Shackelford will high light anything he can take drive by potshots at tour pros. Guy is still mad he wasn't good enough to play regularly on his college team, let alone further. :taunt:

 

Randall Mell wrote the article I referenced, even if Shackleford does have an axe to grind doesn't mean his point isn't valid. Agree or disagree there is an underlying integrity question about this issue and some may find it a worthwhile discussion.

[slimeone]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

THIS

 

Apparently you two need to reread the rule book, if the player whose ball is already on the green is smacked it replaced as close to the original position as possible with no strokes.

 

 

Which is why players choose to leave the ball, because it helps out their buddy and cant hurt them in any way.

Yeah it was pointed out to me that the rule states you can replace your ball which I actually didn't realise but makes sense. But I still question why players would want to collude. Golfers play for themselves and you don't see much commraderie on the course, even amongst friends. So if someone whacks your ball and you get to replace it, you may still have stopped a rival's ball from speeding off into a bunker/water etc and that guy could then win and take your cash. Can't see pro golfers being too cool with that.

[jpt1101]

On the most recent State of the Game podcast Geoff Ogilvy addresses this. He basically said it's become a professional courtesy, albeit one now used more and more frequently. For anyone who doesn't believe this is something done for one player to help another, listen to the podcast and hear it directly from a Tour player.

 

With regard to how this could be enforced, there are way too many letter of the law people on here who could use some common sense. Leave it up to the committee. If a ball on the green is struck and the committee determines that the other play purposely left his ball there to assist the competitor, penalize the player two shots that left the ball. It's not hard to determine when you see a player leave his ball with the intent of helping his playing competitor. Common sense. This would eliminate all the issues of someone hitting a shot from 200 yards to a foot, or driving a par 4. The committee wouldn't rule in those cases that the player leaving their ball there is doing so to help the competitor. Common sense.

 

Or, the rules could be amended to mention if a competitor leaves their ball on the green unmarked as another competitor plays a greenside shot that the player leaving the ball will be penalized two shots if their ball is struck. Greenside doesn't have to be defined by exact measurements. Everyone knows what a greenside shot is. The committee rules on any ambiguity.

 

I just came up with these off the top of my head. There are lots of people who do this for a living that easily could come up with something that works. Not that hard. Many on this site could use a dose of common sense.

 

And finally, the players aren't aiming for the ball at rest! That is REALLY not a hard to concept to understand, along with the fact that two backstops, the ball and the flagstick, are better than one. That is what provides the advantage.

[Mr. Herbert]

So if it's not players running up and marking their balls, exactly what do you mean when you say "every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario"? What other kind of efforts were they making?

 

In recent times there have been incidents highlighted on Twitter which I remember seeing while watching coverage where the players have been at or around the green and chip shots, bunkers shots etc have been played with a ball adjacent to the whole - in these incidents there was no conceivable reason for the ball not to be marked. Historically the ball would have been marked in these instances.

 

Geoff Shackleford has been highlighting this for a while now. I get it that not everyone sees it the same but its definitely becoming more of a common practice so if anything it will be more of an issue in the future especially if someone happens to win an event after doing this.

 

It's not definitely becoming a more common practice, that's your opinion based on Twitter. You've provided no actual evidence that this is a new phenomenon. Of course there are more Tweets about it now, Twitter didn't exist 20-30 years ago.

[jpt1101]

So if it's not players running up and marking their balls, exactly what do you mean when you say "every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario"? What other kind of efforts were they making?

 

In recent times there have been incidents highlighted on Twitter which I remember seeing while watching coverage where the players have been at or around the green and chip shots, bunkers shots etc have been played with a ball adjacent to the whole - in these incidents there was no conceivable reason for the ball not to be marked. Historically the ball would have been marked in these instances.

 

Geoff Shackleford has been highlighting this for a while now. I get it that not everyone sees it the same but its definitely becoming more of a common practice so if anything it will be more of an issue in the future especially if someone happens to win an event after doing this.

 

It's not definitely becoming a more common practice, that's your opinion based on Twitter. You've provided no actual evidence that this is a new phenomenon. Of course there are more Tweets about it now, Twitter didn't exist 20-30 years ago.

 

Listen to Geoff Ogilvy's comments on the State of the Game podcast. He said its more prevalent now. As a tour player he would know better than any of us and I'd take his word for it over anyone on this site.

[OldTomMorris]

So if it's not players running up and marking their balls, exactly what do you mean when you say "every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario"? What other kind of efforts were they making?

 

In recent times there have been incidents highlighted on Twitter which I remember seeing while watching coverage where the players have been at or around the green and chip shots, bunkers shots etc have been played with a ball adjacent to the whole - in these incidents there was no conceivable reason for the ball not to be marked. Historically the ball would have been marked in these instances.

 

Geoff Shackleford has been highlighting this for a while now. I get it that not everyone sees it the same but its definitely becoming more of a common practice so if anything it will be more of an issue in the future especially if someone happens to win an event after doing this.

 

It's not definitely becoming a more common practice, that's your opinion based on Twitter. You've provided no actual evidence that this is a new phenomenon. Of course there are more Tweets about it now, Twitter didn't exist 20-30 years ago.

 

I repeat I've noticed a trend in over 35+ years watching golf and writers are writing about it, I'm not the only one. Golf writers existed before Twitter, the only reason I mentioned Twitter is that there is a permanent record on there. I don't have a catalogue of clips recorded from TV.

 

There is no reason to fabricate this.

[deadsolid...shank]

On the most recent State of the Game podcast Geoff Ogilvy addresses this. He basically said it's become a professional courtesy, albeit one now used more and more frequently. For anyone who doesn't believe this is something done for one player to help another, listen to the podcast and hear it directly from a Tour player.

 

With regard to how this could be enforced, there are way too many letter of the law people on here who could use some common sense. Leave it up to the committee. If a ball on the green is struck and the committee determines that the other play purposely left his ball there to assist the competitor, penalize the player two shots that left the ball. It's not hard to determine when you see a player leave his ball with the intent of helping his playing competitor. Common sense. This would eliminate all the issues of someone hitting a shot from 200 yards to a foot, or driving a par 4. The committee wouldn't rule in those cases that the player leaving their ball there is doing so to help the competitor. Common sense.

 

Or, the rules could be amended to mention if a competitor leaves their ball on the green unmarked as another competitor plays a greenside shot that the player leaving the ball will be penalized two shots if their ball is struck. Greenside doesn't have to be defined by exact measurements. Everyone knows what a greenside shot is. The committee rules on any ambiguity.

 

I just came up with these off the top of my head. There are lots of people who do this for a living that easily could come up with something that works. Not that hard. Many on this site could use a dose of common sense.

 

And finally, the players aren't aiming for the ball at rest! That is REALLY not a hard to concept to understand, along with the fact that two backstops, the ball and the flagstick, are better than one. That is what provides the advantage.

 

So you want the committee to make a judgement on a player's intent? That's not going to create a sh!tstorm of controversy. Wow, could you imagine this board if they made a ruling after the fact that impacted a major? Or even, bigger, impacted Tiger.

[North Butte]

On the most recent State of the Game podcast Geoff Ogilvy addresses this. He basically said it's become a professional courtesy, albeit one now used more and more frequently. For anyone who doesn't believe this is something done for one player to help another, listen to the podcast and hear it directly from a Tour player.

 

With regard to how this could be enforced, there are way too many letter of the law people on here who could use some common sense. Leave it up to the committee. If a ball on the green is struck and the committee determines that the other play purposely left his ball there to assist the competitor, penalize the player two shots that left the ball. It's not hard to determine when you see a player leave his ball with the intent of helping his playing competitor. Common sense. This would eliminate all the issues of someone hitting a shot from 200 yards to a foot, or driving a par 4. The committee wouldn't rule in those cases that the player leaving their ball there is doing so to help the competitor. Common sense.

 

Or, the rules could be amended to mention if a competitor leaves their ball on the green unmarked as another competitor plays a greenside shot that the player leaving the ball will be penalized two shots if their ball is struck. Greenside doesn't have to be defined by exact measurements. Everyone knows what a greenside shot is. The committee rules on any ambiguity.

 

I just came up with these off the top of my head. There are lots of people who do this for a living that easily could come up with something that works. Not that hard. Many on this site could use a dose of common sense.

 

And finally, the players aren't aiming for the ball at rest! That is REALLY not a hard to concept to understand, along with the fact that two backstops, the ball and the flagstick, are better than one. That is what provides the advantage.

 

Yes and ideally the committee could do their mind reading the day after the tournament is over. That makes it even more arbitrary and unfair, just like we like it!

 

You guys crack me up.

[jpt1101]

On the most recent State of the Game podcast Geoff Ogilvy addresses this. He basically said it's become a professional courtesy, albeit one now used more and more frequently. For anyone who doesn't believe this is something done for one player to help another, listen to the podcast and hear it directly from a Tour player.

 

With regard to how this could be enforced, there are way too many letter of the law people on here who could use some common sense. Leave it up to the committee. If a ball on the green is struck and the committee determines that the other play purposely left his ball there to assist the competitor, penalize the player two shots that left the ball. It's not hard to determine when you see a player leave his ball with the intent of helping his playing competitor. Common sense. This would eliminate all the issues of someone hitting a shot from 200 yards to a foot, or driving a par 4. The committee wouldn't rule in those cases that the player leaving their ball there is doing so to help the competitor. Common sense.

 

Or, the rules could be amended to mention if a competitor leaves their ball on the green unmarked as another competitor plays a greenside shot that the player leaving the ball will be penalized two shots if their ball is struck. Greenside doesn't have to be defined by exact measurements. Everyone knows what a greenside shot is. The committee rules on any ambiguity.

 

I just came up with these off the top of my head. There are lots of people who do this for a living that easily could come up with something that works. Not that hard. Many on this site could use a dose of common sense.

 

And finally, the players aren't aiming for the ball at rest! That is REALLY not a hard to concept to understand, along with the fact that two backstops, the ball and the flagstick, are better than one. That is what provides the advantage.

 

Yes and ideally the committee could do their mind reading the day after the tournament is over. That makes it even more arbitrary and unfair, just like we like it!

 

You guys crack me up.

 

This really isn't that hard. It's easy to spot when you see it.

[golfgirlrobin]

So if it's not players running up and marking their balls, exactly what do you mean when you say "every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario"? What other kind of efforts were they making?

 

In recent times there have been incidents highlighted on Twitter which I remember seeing while watching coverage where the players have been at or around the green and chip shots, bunkers shots etc have been played with a ball adjacent to the whole - in these incidents there was no conceivable reason for the ball not to be marked. Historically the ball would have been marked in these instances.

 

Geoff Shackleford has been highlighting this for a while now. I get it that not everyone sees it the same but its definitely becoming more of a common practice so if anything it will be more of an issue in the future especially if someone happens to win an event after doing this.

 

It's not definitely becoming a more common practice, that's your opinion based on Twitter. You've provided no actual evidence that this is a new phenomenon. Of course there are more Tweets about it now, Twitter didn't exist 20-30 years ago.

 

Listen to Geoff Ogilvy's comments on the State of the Game podcast. He said its more prevalent now. As a tour player he would know better than any of us and I'd take his word for it over anyone on this site.

 

Ian Baker Finch has been all over this for the last two seasons, too. Seems that he'd be familiar with the standard practice on tour going back quite a while.

[deadsolid...shank]

On the most recent State of the Game podcast Geoff Ogilvy addresses this. He basically said it's become a professional courtesy, albeit one now used more and more frequently. For anyone who doesn't believe this is something done for one player to help another, listen to the podcast and hear it directly from a Tour player.

 

With regard to how this could be enforced, there are way too many letter of the law people on here who could use some common sense. Leave it up to the committee. If a ball on the green is struck and the committee determines that the other play purposely left his ball there to assist the competitor, penalize the player two shots that left the ball. It's not hard to determine when you see a player leave his ball with the intent of helping his playing competitor. Common sense. This would eliminate all the issues of someone hitting a shot from 200 yards to a foot, or driving a par 4. The committee wouldn't rule in those cases that the player leaving their ball there is doing so to help the competitor. Common sense.

 

Or, the rules could be amended to mention if a competitor leaves their ball on the green unmarked as another competitor plays a greenside shot that the player leaving the ball will be penalized two shots if their ball is struck. Greenside doesn't have to be defined by exact measurements. Everyone knows what a greenside shot is. The committee rules on any ambiguity.

 

I just came up with these off the top of my head. There are lots of people who do this for a living that easily could come up with something that works. Not that hard. Many on this site could use a dose of common sense.

 

And finally, the players aren't aiming for the ball at rest! That is REALLY not a hard to concept to understand, along with the fact that two backstops, the ball and the flagstick, are better than one. That is what provides the advantage.

 

Yes and ideally the committee could do their mind reading the day after the tournament is over. That makes it even more arbitrary and unfair, just like we like it!

 

You guys crack me up.

 

This really isn't that hard. It's easy to spot when you see it.

 

I think we all know it goes on. And you're probably correct, most times it's likely you'll be able to discern when it happens.

 

But they won't enforce a slow penalty that is clear cut from a stopwatch. Does anyone really believe a commitment is going to stick their neck out and penalize a player for this?

 

Unless they find a scapegoat early in tournament and decide to use him to make an example.

[jpt1101]

On the most recent State of the Game podcast Geoff Ogilvy addresses this. He basically said it's become a professional courtesy, albeit one now used more and more frequently. For anyone who doesn't believe this is something done for one player to help another, listen to the podcast and hear it directly from a Tour player.

 

With regard to how this could be enforced, there are way too many letter of the law people on here who could use some common sense. Leave it up to the committee. If a ball on the green is struck and the committee determines that the other play purposely left his ball there to assist the competitor, penalize the player two shots that left the ball. It's not hard to determine when you see a player leave his ball with the intent of helping his playing competitor. Common sense. This would eliminate all the issues of someone hitting a shot from 200 yards to a foot, or driving a par 4. The committee wouldn't rule in those cases that the player leaving their ball there is doing so to help the competitor. Common sense.

 

Or, the rules could be amended to mention if a competitor leaves their ball on the green unmarked as another competitor plays a greenside shot that the player leaving the ball will be penalized two shots if their ball is struck. Greenside doesn't have to be defined by exact measurements. Everyone knows what a greenside shot is. The committee rules on any ambiguity.

 

I just came up with these off the top of my head. There are lots of people who do this for a living that easily could come up with something that works. Not that hard. Many on this site could use a dose of common sense.

 

And finally, the players aren't aiming for the ball at rest! That is REALLY not a hard to concept to understand, along with the fact that two backstops, the ball and the flagstick, are better than one. That is what provides the advantage.

 

Yes and ideally the committee could do their mind reading the day after the tournament is over. That makes it even more arbitrary and unfair, just like we like it!

 

You guys crack me up.

 

This really isn't that hard. It's easy to spot when you see it.

 

I think we all know it goes on. And you're probably correct, most times it's likely you'll be able to discern when it happens.

 

But they won't enforce a slow penalty that is clear cut from a stopwatch. Does anyone really believe a commitment is going to stick their neck out and penalize a player for this?

 

Unless they find a scapegoat early in tournament and decide to use him to make an example.

 

I agree with you and that's the frustrating part. Nothing would ever be called, akin to your slow play analogy. But perhaps the committee having the power to do this would be a deterrent in itself.

[finleysg]

If that ball had been between him and the hole, you can bet he would have seen it and had it marked.

 

Which (along with probability, which is too much math for some) is the strongest argument for the existing rule (22.1). It's a guarantee that a good player will have a ball marked if it is between him/her and the hole. Behind the hole? Suddenly s/he doesn't care.

[Man_O_War]

Hours and hours spent on here and this is the first time I have ever heard of "backstopping".

 

Am I the only one?

 

expected something more sinister..like a stuck plug

[PowderedToastMan]

Along with removing backstops, we also need to remove trees, as they occasionally shoot balls back into the fairway.

[buckeyefl]

Such a pathetic non issue that is only being discussed because it almost came close to impacting a tournament, which means it had yet to do so until now.

 

Quite a few former players turned announcers openly speak out against it which tells me they know that players are doing it on purpose to possibly gain an advantage.

[Valtiel]

Such a pathetic non issue that is only being discussed because it almost came close to impacting a tournament, which means it had yet to do so until now.

 

Quite a few former players turned announcers openly speak out against it which tells me that they are terrified of dead air and always search for things to talk about.

 

Fixed that for you.

[OldTomMorris]

Listen to Geoff Ogilvy's comments on the State of the Game podcast. He said its more prevalent now. As a tour player he would know better than any of us and I'd take his word for it over anyone on this site.

 

Very interesting to listen to his comments, its evolved innocently and organically but it exists. There is an unspoken understanding to leave the ball in a potentially advantageous position .

[tannyhoban]

Players will take every advantage they can get if there is wiggle room. You cannot blame the players.

 

This thing known as "backstopping" is definitely a recent thing though. In the past every effort was made to avoid the possibility of it happening, that effort now seems to be missing in some quarters.

 

Some might say its the slow erosion of integrity is permeating into the game of golf.

 

Unfortunately, integrity, wisdom, empathy and morality are slowly being weaned from our society, no matter how much many of us dislike it.

The root cause isn't an individual or two, it's the acceptance of the behavior. Unless rules are put in to stop it, and then those that violate are held accountable, it will continue.

 

The reality is, the gentlemen's game as it was traditionally played has gone by the wayside ever since big money came to be for the professional golfer.

 

Traditionally they played stymies. Buncha backstopping drama queens around here.

[Valtiel]

Listen to Geoff Ogilvy's comments on the State of the Game podcast. He said its more prevalent now. As a tour player he would know better than any of us and I'd take his word for it over anyone on this site.

 

Very interesting to listen to his comments, its evolved innocently and organically but it exists. There is an unspoken understanding to leave the ball in a potentially advantageous position .

 

But what would your position be on what I said regarding the potentially equal disadvantages re: caroms/bad deflections?

[buckeyefl]

Such a pathetic non issue that is only being discussed because it almost came close to impacting a tournament, which means it had yet to do so until now.

 

Quite a few former players turned announcers openly speak out against it which tells me that they are terrified of dead air and always search for things to talk about.

 

Fixed that for you.

 

Thanks for nothing as I know a couple of them personally and they wouldn't be yammering about this for the reason you suggest when its must easier to talk about Phils fantastic short game as he misses another 3 footer. If you think they are bringing it up to fill dead air then enjoy your theory but I guarantee that they know its a game within the game and its shady at best.

[OldTomMorris]

Listen to Geoff Ogilvy's comments on the State of the Game podcast. He said its more prevalent now. As a tour player he would know better than any of us and I'd take his word for it over anyone on this site.

 

Very interesting to listen to his comments, its evolved innocently and organically but it exists. There is an unspoken understanding to leave the ball in a potentially advantageous position .

 

But what would your position be on what I said regarding the potentially equal disadvantages re: caroms/bad deflections?

 

Not exactly sure what you mean so I may be a little off here.

 

Of course its not a guaranteed risk/reward payoff but its a probability thing. If in doubt they'll have it marked.

[jpt1101]

Listen to Geoff Ogilvy's comments on the State of the Game podcast. He said its more prevalent now. As a tour player he would know better than any of us and I'd take his word for it over anyone on this site.

 

Very interesting to listen to his comments, its evolved innocently and organically but it exists. There is an unspoken understanding to leave the ball in a potentially advantageous position .

 

But what would your position be on what I said regarding the potentially equal disadvantages re: caroms/bad deflections?

 

I can honestly say I've never seen a ball strike a ball near the hole and the ball be deflected into what would be a worse position. 100% of the times I've seen the ball ends up better off.

 

Listen to Geoff Ogilvy's comments on the State of the Game podcast. He said its more prevalent now. As a tour player he would know better than any of us and I'd take his word for it over anyone on this site.

 

Very interesting to listen to his comments, its evolved innocently and organically but it exists. There is an unspoken understanding to leave the ball in a potentially advantageous position .

 

But what would your position be on what I said regarding the potentially equal disadvantages re: caroms/bad deflections?

 

I can honestly say I've never seen a ball strike a ball near the hole and the ball be deflected into what would be a worse position. 100% of the times I've seen the ball ends up better off.

[farmer]

Why would they do this? If Player A makes more money, Player B makes less. Most ridiculous pseudo rules discussion ever.

[Shilgy]

 

Of course, Shackelford will high light anything he can take drive by potshots at tour pros. Guy is still mad he wasn't good enough to play regularly on his college team, let alone further. :taunt:

I don't think it is new but tell us please if you would. Is this a new phenomenon or has it been common for years?

[jpt1101]

Why would they do this? If Player A makes more money, Player B makes less. Most ridiculous pseudo rules discussion ever.

 

I agree. It's ridiculous. Which makes it eve more ludicrous that they're doing it, but they are!

[youraway2]

On the most recent State of the Game podcast Geoff Ogilvy addresses this. He basically said it's become a professional courtesy, albeit one now used more and more frequently. For anyone who doesn't believe this is something done for one player to help another, listen to the podcast and hear it directly from a Tour player.

 

With regard to how this could be enforced, there are way too many letter of the law people on here who could use some common sense. Leave it up to the committee. If a ball on the green is struck and the committee determines that the other play purposely left his ball there to assist the competitor, penalize the player two shots that left the ball. It's not hard to determine when you see a player leave his ball with the intent of helping his playing competitor. Common sense. This would eliminate all the issues of someone hitting a shot from 200 yards to a foot, or driving a par 4. The committee wouldn't rule in those cases that the player leaving their ball there is doing so to help the competitor. Common sense.

 

Or, the rules could be amended to mention if a competitor leaves their ball on the green unmarked as another competitor plays a greenside shot that the player leaving the ball will be penalized two shots if their ball is struck. Greenside doesn't have to be defined by exact measurements. Everyone knows what a greenside shot is. The committee rules on any ambiguity.

 

I just came up with these off the top of my head. There are lots of people who do this for a living that easily could come up with something that works. Not that hard. Many on this site could use a dose of common sense.

 

And finally, the players aren't aiming for the ball at rest! That is REALLY not a hard to concept to understand, along with the fact that two backstops, the ball and the flagstick, are better than one. That is what provides the advantage.

 

Yes and ideally the committee could do their mind reading the day after the tournament is over. That makes it even more arbitrary and unfair, just like we like it!

 

You guys crack me up.

 

This really isn't that hard. It's easy to spot when you see it.

 

I think we all know it goes on. And you're probably correct, most times it's likely you'll be able to discern when it happens.

 

But they won't enforce a slow penalty that is clear cut from a stopwatch. Does anyone really believe a commitment is going to stick their neck out and penalize a player for this?

 

Unless they find a scapegoat early in tournament and decide to use him to make an example.

 

I agree with you and that's the frustrating part. Nothing would ever be called, akin to your slow play analogy. But perhaps the committee having the power to do this would be a deterrent in itself.

Already exist in the Decisions - but this is the PGA Tour, an entertainment business, integrity has no basis here.

[North Butte]

Why would they do this? If Player A makes more money, Player B makes less. Most ridiculous pseudo rules discussion ever.

 

They could in theory also whisper when they discuss club selection with their caddie, have him hold up the wrong number of fingers to signal the TV guy or keep a towel over their bag lest a fellow competitor peek in and find out what club they are hitting. After all, knowing that MIGHT be a slight advantage to the other player once or twice in a decade.

 

But the rules say only that players cannot ask or be told what club someone else is using, not that they must go out of their way to keep it a secret.

 

The "professional courtesy" thing means not running around acting like you're looking for a 0.0000001% advantage over the other guy by getting your ball marked before he can hit up. It doesn't matter, the players know it doesn't matter and being a professional includes not making a BFD out of things that don't matter.

[Shilgy]

Good gracious. I don't recall this much angst in posts when Phil said there are players out there that are "liberal" when marking the ball. If true that would be a much bigger issue.