Did Tiger play 18 for second place?

[Brass_Bullseye]

Tiger is the most cerebral player of all time.

 

Incorrect. Hit Wikipedia and look up a guy named Jack Nicklaus.

[Valtiel]

Tiger is the most cerebral player of all time.

 

Incorrect. Hit Wikipedia and look up a guy named Jack Nicklaus.

 

A guy named Nicklaus you say? Never heard of him. Please tell us more.

[bscinstnct]

Why does everyone keep saying he hit 2 iron? That club is no more a 2 iron then a 3 hybrid or a 7 wood is a 3 iron. I know it sounds cooler, but c'mon. Even I can hit that crossover type club, but I can't hit a 2 iron.

I think you might be missing the point.

 

I can't say for sure what Tiger was thinking, but I suspect there were a couple of things going on.

 

First, he has played that strategy all week, and in the past, successfully. I think it was his putter that let him down on Sunday, and hitting it a long way and ending up in the rough or woods wasn't going to solve that problem. BTW, I wish my putter would "let me down" like that.

 

Second, I think that he is looking to come back and to get a feel for tournament golf again. Being in the hunt was great, but I don't think leaving his strategy to win the Valspar Championship was what he wanted to accomplish this week. Hitting a driver and potentially ending up with a bad hole at the end is contrary to simply being in the hunt, in the tournament and building his stamina. While I believe every single player at the tour level wants to win, perhaps he wasn't playing for position this week. Had this been the Master's, well then perhaps things would be different. Then again, perhaps not.

 

Third, it is a percentages game. What gives him the better odds? How often would he hit the 2-iron and be in the fairway and then hitting a longer iron to 20 feet or less and making the putt, versus how often would he hit a driver in the fairway and then hit a short iron to 15 feet or less and make the putt? He likely felt he had a better chance with the 2-iron. I didn't mention 3-wood because I don't think the difference in distance between that and the 2-iron is large enough to take the risk under almost any condition.

 

Finally, I wonder how much playing with Snedeker who was not having a great day had on Tiger's play. I would guess not at all, but I mention it because sometimes a player playing great can push their partner to step it up subconsciously. Honestly, I imagine this is a small part of what goes on in a tour player's head, and even less in Tiger's, but I'm just thinking out loud :)

 

Nice post.

 

But I would think he could have got 30 more yds out of the 3w.

 

I imagine he just didnt feel good about making it work.

 

And, if was a Major? Wonder if he goes with more club?

[Marco]

Good possibility outlined in this article, but I think Tiger knows how to read the speeds and to imagine the ball through the hole, they just assume he thought about the ball going in the hole lol

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-can-tiger-woods-leave-a-putt-short-at-the-worst-possible-time-a-simple-explanation?mbid=social_facebook

[HeadonaStick]

Why does everyone keep saying he hit 2 iron? That club is no more a 2 iron then a 3 hybrid or a 7 wood is a 3 iron. I know it sounds cooler, but c'mon. Even I can hit that crossover type club, but I can't hit a 2 iron.

I think you might be missing the point.

 

I can't say for sure what Tiger was thinking, but I suspect there were a couple of things going on.

 

First, he has played that strategy all week, and in the past, successfully. I think it was his putter that let him down on Sunday, and hitting it a long way and ending up in the rough or woods wasn't going to solve that problem. BTW, I wish my putter would "let me down" like that.

 

Second, I think that he is looking to come back and to get a feel for tournament golf again. Being in the hunt was great, but I don't think leaving his strategy to win the Valspar Championship was what he wanted to accomplish this week. Hitting a driver and potentially ending up with a bad hole at the end is contrary to simply being in the hunt, in the tournament and building his stamina. While I believe every single player at the tour level wants to win, perhaps he wasn't playing for position this week. Had this been the Master's, well then perhaps things would be different. Then again, perhaps not.

 

Third, it is a percentages game. What gives him the better odds? How often would he hit the 2-iron and be in the fairway and then hitting a longer iron to 20 feet or less and making the putt, versus how often would he hit a driver in the fairway and then hit a short iron to 15 feet or less and make the putt? He likely felt he had a better chance with the 2-iron. I didn't mention 3-wood because I don't think the difference in distance between that and the 2-iron is large enough to take the risk under almost any condition.

 

Finally, I wonder how much playing with Snedeker who was not having a great day had on Tiger's play. I would guess not at all, but I mention it because sometimes a player playing great can push their partner to step it up subconsciously. Honestly, I imagine this is a small part of what goes on in a tour player's head, and even less in Tiger's, but I'm just thinking out loud :)

 

Nice post.

 

But I would think he could have got 30 more yds out of the 3w.

 

I honestly don't know how much further he hits the 3 wood versus the 2 iron.

 

I imagine he just didnt feel good about making it work.

 

I think that is the bottom line. And I think "feeling good" is one of the goals for Tiger right now.

 

And, if was a Major? Wonder if he goes with more club?

Possibly. I think his goals would be a bit different if he was in a major. I think his work now is probably to get ready for Augusta.

[TN22]

He was striping that 2 iron all weekend and his long irons were good all week. It's all about giving himself the best chance. He wasn't playing for 2nd, he calculated the odds and I agree with his choice off the tee.

[DavePelz4]

Didn't TW stripe a 2I at Hoylake for 4 rounds on his way to an Open Championship?

[ClintDagger]

Tiger is the most cerebral player of all time.

 

Incorrect. Hit Wikipedia and look up a guy named Jack Nicklaus.

Nah, Jack is the guy that was a legend in his spare time like Chi Chi said.

[Buzzkill]

Since I have not won 79 tournaments and 14 majors, I don't know the answer.

 

^ This!

[Medic]

Using the power of analytics, let's delve into this potential and see what comes of it.

 

Evidence against the OP's supposition that Tiger may have been playing for second place:

• Once played with fracture in leg - trying to win.
  
• Once played with fever - trying to win.
  
• Has stated in interviews he always plays to win.
  
• Played Open Championship with injured ACL in knee - and won.
  
• Injured left elbow winning Players' - still entered next tourney.
  
• Wins first start back after having fluid removed from knee.
  
• Attempted comeback after back surgery - eager to compete again.
  
• In the first tourney since comeback he has a real chance of a win - only one stroke behind.
  

Evidence supportive of the OP's supposition that Tiger just wanted second:

• <crickets playing here....>
  

Not a chance in the world he was playing for second. Never has. And never will.

 

It's an interesting point for some back and forth conversation but Tiger wants to break the streak of not winning - and the sooner the better. He knows, all too well, that once he gets that first win again he'll be "back". And then he can once again start looking towards winning more majors.

[augustgolf]

^^^ GOLF WRX is no place for logic, my friend

[rafer11]

I'll take a stab at trying to answer this.

 

78 players played round 4.

 

On 18 there were

 

Birdies: 7

Pars: 49

Bogeys: 21

Other: 1

 

 

 

Now, here is a look at Cooperhead's 18th green. This two tiered green is nowhere near 50/50 in terms of the lower and upper half. The upper half accounts for just under 1/4 of the green. Not only is it tiny, but it's incredibly well protected.

 

Out of 78 golfers Sunday with that pin position which was up on the top tier, 42 hit the green. A tad under 54%.

 

Of the 42 that hit the green, only 12 made it up onto this tiny shelf. The other 30 were in 2 majority areas. Roughly where Tiger was and roughly were Reed was. Most balls seemed to funnel there.

 

Of the 12 who made it up to that little shelf, their lengths were 5', 7', 7', 8', 12', 13', 14', 15', 17', 21', 23', 26'.

 

The 50% make rate for putts is at 8' on tour. So only 4/78 players had a 50% make-able birdie putt or better on this difficult 18th pin location. (The 7 birdies came from 5', 7', 12', 15', 27', 39', 44').

 

 

Fairway

 

The fairway narrows at about 150 yards out, with additional bunkering on both sides.

 

 

 

If you want any chance at bird, you need to be in the short stuff and on the right side. (Tiger's ball position in inset image above^)

 

One of the best course management books ever written is A Round of Golf with Tommy Armour. It's written almost as a fictional story of Tommy taking a frustrated guy from his club on the verge of quitting through 9 holes of golf. He opens his eyes to the fact that after decades of playing he's never been using his head. It's incredibly well written, and I recommend it to all here who haven;t read it. However, as he takes this poor sap through the 9 holes, shot by shot, he writes lessons in the book along the way.

 

One of the important lessons has to do with greens that slope back to front and have pins in the back. He says something along the lines of "You never ever hit a high ball to a back pin position, when the pin is in the back on a back to front sloping green." (It may be on a back to front sloping tiered, I can't recall). Anyway, if you go long you're both short sided and downhill. Double whammy. If you hit it high, it's going to land and spin back towards the front, and perhaps right off it. He mentions you always want to play a low ball flight into such a scenario, hitting the green and chasing to the back.

 

If Tiger puts one to 150 yards, he's looking at his pitching wedge or less. Ideally he's got an 8 iron, maybe 7 iron, and can play a low cut into this green and chase it up (although it's still bound to leave a 15' as the pin was in the front part of the upper tier).

 

 

Something like #4 is what he is looking at here. Revisit the first picture on the right side and look at the way the green slopes. In the second picture, notice the green has protection if you were on the left side of the fairway.

 

Tiger is in perfect position right now. Perfectly on the right side of the fairway, where he can play a low/mid traj cut. At 185 yards, that's perhaps 7/8 iron for Tiger, depending on how much he's trying to cut it into the bank.

 

He definitely wasn't playing for second there. In the end, he needed a stroke much earlier in the round. The 18th with that pin position is simply a very difficult birdie hole. That shelf and location look incredibly daunting.

 

However, in terms of course management on that hole, I grade it an A. Ensures he finds short grass, and ensure its as far right as possible. Leave himself something a bit longer than a wedge in hand so he can play a lower/mid trajectory so that his ball could possibly chase to the upper tier (the only realistic way of getting up to that tiny shelf).

[Titleist 670]

I think Tiger figured on the tee that he couldn't win the tournament with his drive, but he could potentially lose it.

 

He'd been playing 2-iron all week, and had a much better chance to find the fairway with it. The odds of finding the fairway with 2-iron + hitting the green were higher in his mind than hitting 3-wood/driver and having a wedge on that particular hole. If he missing way left/way right, he has no shot.

 

I think he was hoping that he'd hit it a touch lower and have it chase 5/10 more yards, but he had a look at it.

[BearQ]

Reed hit pw to even further away than tiger. If anything that pin asked for a mid iron with bit less spin to get up to the top tier.

 

Thought he played the hole exactly as you should. Only 7 birdies there all day for a reason.

[mstram]

These are the best players on the planet, if they can't control a short to a middle iron uphill into the wind to a back shelf then they don't deserve birdie. And if you are Reed and can't control the spin on a short iron , then chunk a putt, you deserve to lose. Plain and simple.

 

+100000000000000000000

 

For all the "might drive it into the woods / bunker" etc comments :

 

Funny how Woods drove it ~340 in the fairway on #14 :/

 

Physically, it looks like he he's "back".

 

Mentally .... dunno.

 

And even though "only" a 7i for ~190 (where was the 7i reported btw? .... didn't hear that from the oncourse reporter), any golfer's dispersion is going to be greater from 190 than 100-150.

[BB28403]

No. Do you play to lose? I doubt the best in the world did either .

[straightshot7]

Yeah Tiger has a history of playing for second, and at this point in his career a second place finish means a lot.

 

No. He said he didn't feel comfortable with the 3 wood because of where the fairway narrowed. He said putting it in the fairway gave him a chance to make birdie.

 

There's no way you're putting it close from the rough with that hole location.

[grm24]

These are the best players on the planet, if they can't control a short to a middle iron uphill into the wind to a back shelf then they don't deserve birdie. And if you are Reed and can't control the spin on a short iron , then chunk a putt, you deserve to lose. Plain and simple.

 

+100000000000000000000

 

For all the "might drive it into the woods / bunker" etc comments :

 

Funny how Woods drove it ~340 in the fairway on #14 :/

 

Physically, it looks like he he's "back".

 

Mentally .... dunno.

 

And even though "only" a 7i for ~190 (where was the 7i reported btw? .... didn't hear that from the oncourse reporter), any golfer's

dispersion is going to be greater from 190 than 100-150.

Tiger said after the round he hit 7 iron on his second shot on 18.

 

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=138075

 

Q. What club was it you had?

TIGER WOODS: I had 184 up the hill and hit 7-iron.

[Texsport]

I think Tiger played the hole correctly. The 18th at Copperhead is famous for its difficulty - very few birdies on Sundays - ever.

 

The severe back to front contour + playing into the wind + the pin being on a shelf on the back, with no room behind to carry past the pin - would make it very difficult to avoid backing the ball up, down to the lower level with a shorter club. (Exactly what happened to Patrick Reed)

 

Hitting the iron off the tee gave him better odds of hitting the fairway + cutting an approach with a longer club, with less backspin, back into the back plateau.

 

Tiger lost the tournament by missing the 2 - 15 ft putts he had earlier in the round.

 

Texsport

[straightshot7]

These are the best players on the planet, if they can't control a short to a middle iron uphill into the wind to a back shelf then they don't deserve birdie. And if you are Reed and can't control the spin on a short iron , then chunk a putt, you deserve to lose. Plain and simple.

 

+100000000000000000000

 

For all the "might drive it into the woods / bunker" etc comments :

 

Funny how Woods drove it ~340 in the fairway on #14 :/

 

Physically, it looks like he he's "back".

 

Mentally .... dunno.

 

And even though "only" a 7i for ~190 (where was the 7i reported btw? .... didn't hear that from the oncourse reporter), any golfer's dispersion is going to be greater from 190 than 100-150.

 

Funny how 14's fairway is 50 yards wide and hitting driver there gives him the chance to hit the green in 2...and #18 is extremely narrow and hardy anyone hit driver there. But okay :/

[mstram]

...and #18 is extremely narrow and hardy anyone hit driver there. But okay :/

 

Yeah, like the guy who WON the tourney ;)

 

Go big or go home.

[straightshot7]

...and #18 is extremely narrow and hardy anyone hit driver there. But okay :/

 

Yeah, like the guy who WON the tourney ;)

 

Go big or go home.

 

He made par...just like Tiger.

 

To insinuate that Tiger is not there mentally because he didn't hit driver on 18 is silly.

 

Even in his absolute prime he never hit driver on narrow, shortish par 4s.

 

The tournament wasn't won or lost on 18.

[RobertBaron]

I think if it’s Augusta or another course he knows well, Tiger would be more willing to call an audible an change the game plan on the fly. Unfamiliarity of knowing the best places to miss probably played a big role in sticking to the plan.

[Gem]

By going 2-iron/7-iron, I thought he played to his current strengths. His long and middle irons are very solid, whereas his driver and short irons are suspect. I think we're getting our first real look at the 'new' Tiger, one who is more of a game manager. It's a somewhat Faldo-esque approach. I like it. Leave the bombing to the bombers.

 

I remember Faldo hitting two long irons into the last in the 1990 US Open at Rochester when he needed a birdie to get to a playoff. He was so confident in his iron play that he chose the best percentage to get the birdie. He lipped out his put and finished 3rd.

I thought it was good play then as was Tigers on Sunday.

[80sFredriksson]

rafer11 wins thread, game over

[bladehunter]

What we are seeing here in this thread and in other media is a clash between the old game and the new game. New game doesn’t understand why anyone would hit less than Driver . Why ? Because new game doesn’t hit mid irons as well as in years past. The new game relies on pw down to Lw. If we made all courses tight like copper head you would see the new game struggle mightily. Just think who missed the cut. And who won.

[sphna12d]

Agreed with other posts which have said this tournament was lost long before the 18th. If it wasn’t for that miracle bomb on 17, this whole conversation doesn’t take place. At the time, I do recall thinking that I would have loved to have seen Tiger hit that same cut 3 wood that he had hit on 16. I didn’t ultimately have a problem with his decision though and again that wasn’t the reason he didn’t birdie the hole. His putting and iron play just wasn’t as sharp as it had been on Saturday and ultimately he didn’t give himself a lot of good chances for birdies.

[redfirebird08]

What we are seeing here in this thread and in other media is a clash between the old game and the new game. New game doesn't understand why anyone would hit less than Driver . Why ? Because new game doesn't hit mid irons as well as in years past. The new game relies on pw down to Lw. If we made all courses tight like copper head you would see the new game struggle mightily. Just think who missed the cut. And who won.

 

We saw with Reed's approach shot that a wedge might actually be a disadvantage on a sucker pin like that one. Steep slope, very easy to spin it back down just like Reed. 7 iron or even 6 iron is a good way to avoid that spin problem. TW just didn't quite have his "A" game with the irons on Sunday, so he ended up 40 feet instead of 15 feet. At least he had a real putt at it. Reed bogied from that weird spot with the fringe collar blocking his line to the hole.

[dlygrisse]

I think he had a perfect strategy but just didn't perform on the par 5s. He was green side on 5=par, wedge into 11=par, and on the green in 2 on 14=par. Which is a big fat F- for Tiger. Bet his goal was -3 and if makes one bogey he's in the playoff with PC.....

 

Exactly. Tiger didn’t necessarily birdie that many more par 4 or 3’s. But he always seemed to gain strokes on the 5’s. -2 on those and he wins.

[dlygrisse]

Tiger is the most cerebral player of all time.

 

Incorrect. Hit Wikipedia and look up a guy named Jack Nicklaus.

 

Hogan was no dummy either. But let’s not let the facts get in the way of hyperbole.