MD/DC/VA Golfers - Twelve Monkeys Mental Divergence

[davechen]

Bravo @baddomes!

 

I get nostalgic thinking about the course I first took up golf on, UNC's Finley GC. Sadly after I left, they tore it out brought in Tom Fazio to design a championship course. Of course the new course is nice, but my memories of Finley are gone.

[dcmidnight]

Maybe Domes Lululemon golf pants were getting a little tight towards the end of his post when he was railing about SSC selling really expensive golf stuff.

 

But - I'm just guessing.

 

[baddomes]

> @misplacedtexan83 said:

> Don’t have an opinion on anything except for your hatred for SSC.

>

> So what if they sell expensive bags, etc. there is a market for that. They have brought attention to other courses some people wouldn’t every play without them.

>

> EPP is a fun course.. can it be this amazing course yes but as it lies it’s an enjoyable/fun track. I’m not a fan of reversible courses but that’s more to do with not wanting to get hit by a person.

>

> They believe in the history of the course and bringing that designers vision-design back. So out of content that quote sounds bad. However..applying it to the “history” of the course it is a shell of itself

>

>

 

The only people who believe the course needs to be redesigned in order to honor the "history" are the ones who see no value in what it provides today.

 

There is no overlap in the Venn diagram of "People who frequent EPP" and "People who own $15 Sugarloaf Social Club branded shoehorns"

 

[dcmidnight]

Domes just out of curiosity how many SSC guys do you know? I dont know any but it seems like you know a lot of them.

 

I will say there is a really good overlap in "Hive members" and "guys who own and wear SSC stuff".

 

You had me in your post for a while.

[baddomes]

I know James and Dom. Neither of them play their golf at EPP (both are members at country clubs) and both have recently voiced support for closing and redesigning the course. They are in The Hive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[baddomes]

BTW it's not about selling expensive golf stuff.

 

There are plenty of companies that spell expensive golf stuff that I haven't seen support closing EPP to redesign the property.

 

 

 

 

 

[siegel159]

I'd actually like EPP to be redesigned.

 

Specifically their snack area.

 

Last time I played there, I went into the club house at 7:00am to get poptarts because I didn't have breakfast that morning. But the poptarts weren't out yet, so I had to get a granola bar instead. And then when I made the turn, they had the poptarts out. Unacceptable. They are a breakfast food. Put them out during breakfast time.

 

Beyond that I'd like it to stay the same. I like my early $35 rounds

[baddomes]

Also - We can all disagree on this and it's not personal. That's what makes this forum useful.

 

Xhoop is one of my best friends, golf or otherwise, and he told me he disagrees with me on this. You think I'm cancelling going to apartment to eat homemade detroit style pizza next Sunday?

[dcmidnight]

The real upset is I had no idea what it was but I was certain "Detroit style pizza" is something that was going to show up in urban dictionary....

[misplacedtexan83]

 

 

> @baddomes said:

> I know James and Dom. Neither of them play their golf at EPP (both are members at country clubs) and both have recently voiced support for closing and redesigning the course. They are in The Hive.

>

> I have played EPP many times. Just because I’m

not they every weekend doesn’t mean I don’t know the course or it’s “people”

 

Country club has nothing to do with this — ironic you just played turf valley. Hope you are okay after playing it and don’t lose street cred at EPP-

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

[misplacedtexan83]

Also my post said I’m not a fan of the reversible but the course is due for some updates.. could be just just fix the flooding or more — not a designer.

 

The greens were amazing a month ago better than woodmore or the speed was

[C. Freeman]

> @dcmidnight said:

> The real upset is I had no idea what it was but I was certain "Detroit style pizza" is something that was going to show up in urban dictionary....

 

Urban thesaurus says it’s a synonym for a rusty trombone.

[aiyyer]

Domes, great write up.

Also really enjoyed playing the course for the first time earlier this month with you.

Unfortunately when urban areas are “re-vitalised” and “gentrified”, there’s always a price to pay at both societal and cultural levels. The Wharf area has morphed into the pseudo urban symbol of economic growth that politicians, developers and architects (guilty) have pushed. I think the average rent is on par with New York.

If the plans go through and they probably will, the EPP course will definitely be a victim of the area’s changing economic culture and the inevitable push to be “gentrified” to catch up to the “ economic potential” of the manufactured neighbourhood. Same reason why mom and pop shops get replaced by coffee and book shops and entire communities get displaced.

The area around the course HAS turned into a “hipster paradise“. Hope EPP doesn’t turn into the East Lake version of DC - the story behind that area and the course is interesting.

The driving range, where I started golf, is now a TopGolf site on 270. $10 range buckets from a chain smoking pro replaced by ??

 

[baddomes]

> @misplacedtexan83 said:

>

>

> > @baddomes said:

> > I know James and Dom. Neither of them play their golf at EPP (both are members at country clubs) and both have recently voiced support for closing and redesigning the course. They are in The Hive.

> >

> > I have played EPP many times. Just because I’m

> not they every weekend doesn’t mean I don’t know the course or it’s “people”

>

> Country club has nothing to do with this — ironic you just played turf valley. Hope you are okay after playing it and don’t lose street cred at EPP-

> >

 

 

I've been a member at two different clubs. It doesn't change the fact that I learned how to play golf at EPP, or that my wife continues to be interested in playing golf at EPP because of the options it provides anyone who wants to be involved with the game of golf.

 

If I was a member at Augusta, Pine Valley, and Oakmont all the same time, it wouldn't change the fact that East Potomac is the best example of a facility growing the game of golf, and yet there are groups of people out there (like SSC) who claim that as their mission, but are advocating East Potomac's change, because they want it to be inclusive of what they want to get out of a golf course near where they live.

 

Build a new Tom Doak course at Rock Creek. Build it at Langston. Build a new one at UMD. Build it literally anywhere other than the one place that provides unmatched opportunities for people who want to learn the game.

[misplacedtexan83]

> @baddomes said:

> > @misplacedtexan83 said:

> >

> >

> > > @baddomes said:

> > > I know James and Dom. Neither of them play their golf at EPP (both are members at country clubs) and both have recently voiced support for closing and redesigning the course. They are in The Hive.

> > >

> > > I have played EPP many times. Just because I’m

> > not they every weekend doesn’t mean I don’t know the course or it’s “people”

> >

> > Country club has nothing to do with this — ironic you just played turf valley. Hope you are okay after playing it and don’t lose street cred at EPP-

> > >

>

>

> I've been a member at two different clubs. It doesn't change the fact that I learned how to play golf at EPP, or that my wife continues to be interested in playing golf at EPP because of the options it provides anyone who wants to be involved with the game of golf.

>

> If I was a member at Augusta, Pine Valley, and Oakmont all the same time, it wouldn't change the fact that East Potomac is the best example of a facility growing the game of golf, and yet there are groups of people out there (like SSC) who claim that as their mission, but are advocating East Potomac's change, because they want it to be inclusive of what they want to get out of a golf course near where they live.

>

> Build a new Tom Doak course at Rock Creek. Build it at Langston. Build a new one at UMD. Build it literally anywhere other than the one place that provides unmatched opportunities for people who want to learn the game.

 

Some think langston and rock creek is that.

 

Some think gun powder is that.

 

Everyone has an opinion about “their” course.

 

I feel that about Andrews but can see that it needs improvement

[baddomes]

> @2moreTerps said:

> i kinda don't want to post something that distracts from what domes wrote but i bought two pairs of these pants recently and they are amazing. i bought them for work and not golf. they'd be great for golf.

>

> https://bonobos.com/products/highland-golf-pants-golfg00091?color=navy

 

I think those are the pants Fabb was wearing yesterday.

 

Not that I remember or anything.

 

..

...

 

 

 

 

I think he was wearing the "Raven Blue" color.

[2moreTerps]

> @aiyyer said:

> Domes, great write up.

> Also really enjoyed playing the course for the first time earlier this month with you.

> Unfortunately when urban areas are “re-vitalised” and “gentrified”, there’s always a price to pay at both societal and cultural levels. The Wharf area has morphed into the pseudo urban symbol of economic growth that politicians, developers and architects (guilty) have pushed. I think the average rent is on par with New York.

> If the plans go through and they probably will, the EPP course will definitely be a victim of the area’s changing economic culture and the inevitable push to be “gentrified” to catch up to the “ economic potential” of the manufactured neighbourhood. Same reason why mom and pop shops get replaced by coffee and book shops and entire communities get displaced.

> The area around the course HAS turned into a “hipster paradise“. Hope EPP doesn’t turn into the East Lake version of DC - the story behind that area and the course is interesting.

> The driving range, where I started golf, is now a TopGolf site on 270. $10 range buckets from a chain smoking pro replaced by ??

>

 

To add a simple detail that supports your general point. It costs FORTY FIVE dollars to park for one work day at the Wharf. For emphasis: FORTY FIVE dollars.

[SullGolf]

I like Domes argument. Before it was written out I was thinking it was a gentrification argument rather than an accessibility one. I do like that EPP is accessible to all. When I’m playing with total noobs, it’s one of the few places I feel comfortable bringing them.

 

I think they can improve the course without losing that. It can be nicer without pricing people out. It could have a 100 person range without crappy balls and AstroTurf/dirt targets. The White could be made better while keeping it executive (e.g. most of the bunkers there are lakes after rain).

 

It shouldn’t be Augusta. But it could be a better EPP.

[dcmidnight]

Basically what Sully said. I spent years playing at EPP when I first moved to the city bc it was all I could afford. Bad job on top of night school meant I had no other options. Heck I played in their T-giving event with buddies until a few years ago when Fabb convinced me to come to the Turkey Shoot at PB Dye. My wife still plays in some sort of executive beginners womens league at EPP a few times a summer.

 

> @SullGolf said:

> I think they can improve the course without losing that. It can be nicer without pricing people out. It could have a 100 person range without crappy balls and AstroTurf/dirt targets. The White could be made better while keeping it executive (e.g. most of the bunkers there are lakes after rain). It shouldn’t be Augusta. But it could be a better EPP.

 

But yes.

 

 

[aiyyer]

I’m not disagreeing. Just saying the economical odds may be stacked against the course remaining as is - put any label on it.

Reminds you of the old guys house in Up.

When thing get “nicer” they usually start charging you $10 for bottled water.

 

[tboh]

> @baddomes said:

> Finally posting here:

> A lot of this is personal for me, and I’m going to have to give you too much personal detail to get my ultimate point across.

> I rode my bike there, with my clubs on my back, before the sun came up, almost every weekend for almost two years. Riding your bike on empty city streets early in the morning is something I hope all of you have done at some point. I took sweet pictures of the Washington monument sometimes. This one is time stamped August 3rd, 2014 @ 5:38am. All of this happened before I met or knew any of you.

> I played at EPP 50+ times in 2013/2014. It’s where I consider myself to have learned the game of golf, and not just how to physically play, but also learning the soft skills of the game such as being able to make small talk with strangers for 4 hours. The same people were often down there. I played with a group of former Samoan rugby players a lot. Awesome guys. Another guy, Kenny, putted one-handed and always talked **** about someone else in the foursome. He works as a security guard and I still see him there 90% of the time I play on the weekends. A few of us who randomly got paired traded emails and started organizing our own games. Was on a first-name basis with the starters. I had (and still have with my wife) multiple dates on the red and white courses. Xhoop and I meet at the range after work, mostly to shoot the ****. I took lessons in 2016 from Kim Williams which helped me make the jump into a single digit handicap (I met Kim while my then-girlfriend now-wife was taking group lessons from her).

> Last year I went down on my chemo days in the mornings to clear my mind before going to the hospital (sometimes xhoop accompanied). A few weeks ago my wife suggested we go down and play the white course on a nice afternoon. This has happened often since we’ve been together.

> This year, my company flew me to Florida and Kentucky to entertain clients on the golf course. I fully believe those opportunities would not have presented themselves if cheap, convenient, easy golf at EPP was not accessible to me from 2013/2014 onward.

> I would not know any of you if EPP did not exist as it did in 2013.

> I would not play golf today in anywhere near the same capacity if EPP did not exist in 2013.

> The impact EPP has had on my life is almost immeasurable. I feel more passionate about that piece of property than any home I’ve ever lived in.

> It sounds dramatic, but this place is an important part of my life story.

> One thing that anyone who spends any time at EPP notices is how busy it is. I’ve seen estimates of 90,000 rounds a year (per nps.gov). People are teeing off before the sun comes up. Little kids with their parents are on the red course. There’s footgolf on the white course.

> When we were down a few weeks ago, we played with a guy who had dropped his daughter off at the red course for a golf event, and he was on the white course killing time while she played.

> That experience a couple of weeks ago really was the nail in the coffin for me about the proposed redesign of the EPP facilities. Tell me another public golf facility that you know of where, on a Sunday afternoon in September, an unskilled golfer can go drop his middle school-aged daughter off to play in a beginners girl’s golf event on a par 3 course, and he can simultaneously go play nine holes, and be paired up with a married couple, in which the wife, who plays golf four times a year, felt unintimidated enough to suggest that they go play golf that afternoon.

> That’s what makes EPP such a special place. The opportunity for people of all ages and abilities (and race and gender, honestly) to play golf in the way they enjoy most **exists here in a way that does not exist anywhere else. Today. Full Stop.**

> Fine. I would argue that easy and affordable access exists today. And I would also argue that there is no better example of “what the game can be for everyone” than East Potomac Park. The public packs the tee sheet on all three courses. There’s usually a waiting list to get on the first-come first-serve practice holes on weekends. Hoop and I have had to wait to get a driving range stall in the 100-bay driving range on a weeknight. There are often multiple “Get Golf Ready” group lessons taking place at the same time. Golfers are literally being born across that property any given day.

>

@baddomes I don't know you frm Adam .... Bravo sir!

Nicely worded

Your passion is undeniable

Sometimes ... progress happens by accident

[HighBoomingDraws]

Played Hampshire Greens today. Teed off at 3 pm, done before 6. Course empty. MAN they’ve got that place looking nice. Carpet lush fairways. Slick greens. Mostly filled in reasonable length rough. Only downside is the bunkers are overly fluffy and sandy. By that late in the day they were kind of a pain to play out of as they weren’t raked well. And I was in them, a lot. Coming up short. The 3 piece Ksig seems to be real short to me. Hitting it side by side with some semi scuffed Tp5x and a club like an 8i had a 10-12 yd difference. Miss playing this place. Looking forward to the Turkey scramble.

[SullGolf]

Some guys at the 7s the last few years have noticed my tiny Sunday bag. I bought it close to 10 years ago so I could carry clubs on my bike to EPP. Before that I literally used long socks to tie 2 clubs to my top bar to ride down to the range.

 

That’s what I’m getting at with accessibility vs gentrification. I wasn’t well off but could have paid more. But I couldn’t have physically gone anywhere else unless I bought a car.

 

There are people that play EPP because of the price, and you don’t want to lose them. But my thought is that you’ll leave less people behind than Domes thinks. If the price doubles that’d be bad but $10 more wont leave many people behind. The prices are higher than some can afford, but much lower than most there can handle. I’m totally cool with a higher price that subsidizes entry for the less fortunate. I don’t know how you handle that since the courses are owned by NPS and not DC

[dcmidnight]

Amazing that they are playing golf today after that course got ten inches of rain last night.

 

[gsrjc]

Anyone done breakout room in Columbia? Did it with the wife tonight for her birthday. We did the hostage Airplane one and I didn’t know that once you reserve your spots no one else can join so it was just the two of us. It’s was fun and I had played games like this on the computer and real life is similar. I’d say keep things simple and don’t assume too much or go down a rabbit hole. We broke our in 53 minutes which the people said was a good time considering just two of us.

[FAbb]

Some moving stuff in there, Domes. Aside from the more personal stuff, this line really got me.

 

**Golfers are literally being born across that property any given day**

 

I have no personal connection to EPP. I've played it one time, many years ago. Whether or not they do anything to the course has zero impact on the likelihood of me playing it again in the future.

 

Based on what I can glean from Domes' and others posts, EPP serves a role for golf in DC, and serves it very well. It offers something for golfers across the entire spectrum of experience and skill. Any proposal that would result in extended closure of the facilities, or worse, reduce range of facilities to serve renovation of the blue course just seems out of touch.

[dcmidnight]

These double green layouts in Japan are freaking me out. I guess its something you'd get used to.

 

 

 

[baddomes]

Anyone else getting ads for Fancy Feast Savory Centers on mobile?

[baddomes]

 

[dcmidnight]

Domes are you using Adblock Plus or anything on mobile? I dont see ads like that anymore.