Counter balancing a set of irons

[Mathwiz]

I just ordered a set of irons and I want to try counterbalancing them. I plan to use the lead weights that can be inserted into the butt of the shaft that are sold on golfworks. Has anyone done this and can you give me an idea how much weight to place at the butt of the shaft?

[95124hacker]

About 15 years ago, I counter balanced my clubs using special grips that accepted weights screwed into the ends. I still have some lying around with weights too. Send me a PM if you want to try one out.

[Cwebb]

You really have to test different weights to see if...and which ones help.

 

I would recommend getting some various Tour Lock weights, so you can easily pull them in and out. 12, 16, and 20g are the usuals for testing in irons. Not many will find any benefit with heavier than that, but you could get a 30g as well, if you want to find out

[Jagpilotohio]

Why? What’s the point or purpose of adding a bunch of weight to the butt end? It certainly doesn’t make you swing it any faster.

 

[Mathwiz]

Why? What’s the point or purpose of adding a bunch of weight to the butt end? It certainly doesn’t make you swing it any faster.

 

It's not about swinging faster. It's about the club feeling more balanced throughout the swing. It may not work. I use air to blow my grips on and off so the effort and time is minimal. Actually, the cost will be minimal also. Your term "a bunch of weight" really doesn't apply here.

 

Thanks, Cwebb for an informed answer.

[hendog39]

I used the secret grips on a set to counterbalance. Very easy since you just install grips Good to try it on one club to see if you like it first

[Cwebb]

 

It's not about swinging faster. It's about the club feeling more balanced throughout the swing. It may not work. I use air to blow my grips on and off so the effort and time is minimal. Actually, the cost will be minimal also. Your term "a bunch of weight" really doesn't apply here.

 

 

I've tested and found many players who benefit from Counter Weights, in terms of improving their impact pattern on the face.

 

The best way to test them is to pay close attention to where exactly your strikes are on the face, while also seeing ball flight. Foot Powder spray works great for this.

 

Jack Nicklaus used CW's in his heavy steel shafts

[deepred]

Would heavier grips work?

[Jagpilotohio]

Why? What’s the point or purpose of adding a bunch of weight to the butt end? It certainly doesn’t make you swing it any faster.

 

It's not about swinging faster. It's about the club feeling more balanced throughout the swing. It may not work. I use air to blow my grips on and off so the effort and time is minimal. Actually, the cost will be minimal also. Your term "a bunch of weight" really doesn't apply here.

 

Thanks, Cwebb for an informed answer.

 

Well, Adding 20 grams in the butt of you grip would most certainly qualify as “a bunch of weight”. Regardless of that, I still don’t understand the point of it.

 

I’m not trying to be a jerk. I’m being quite genuine. I’ve occasionally heard of people doing this in the 30 years I’ve been playing and making clubs, but I’ve never understood the purpose of it because no one has ever clearly explained what they expect to gain by it.

 

I don’t understand what making the club “feel more balanced throughout the swing” means. How is a traditionally built and weighted club not “balanced throughout the swing” to begin with? I guess I just don’t understand the goal of the experiment.

 

Anyway. Experimenting is great. Im goofing around with shafts again this winter. Have fun with it.

 

 

 

 

[Cwebb]

 

Well, Adding 20 grams in the butt of you grip would most certainly qualify as “a bunch of weight”. Regardless of that, I still don’t understand the point of it.

 

I’m not trying to be a jerk. I’m being quite genuine. I’ve occasionally heard of people doing this in the 30 years I’ve been playing and making clubs, but I’ve never understood the purpose of it because no one has ever clearly explained what they expect to gain by it.

 

I don’t understand what making the club “feel more balanced throughout the swing” means. How is a traditionally built and weighted club not “balanced throughout the swing” to begin with? I guess I just don’t understand the goal of the experiment.

 

 

The point of it, is that some players improve their impact pattern on the face, more with CW's than they do with a heavier shaft and/or more head weight.

 

All testing of this starts with detailed analysis of impact pattern. If it improves and is more consistent, we know to proceed

[Jagpilotohio]

Very Interesting. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

 

So OP is searching for some sort of amorphous new swing “feel” that is coincidentally connected to an obscure fitting technique that he doesnt actually know about? Wild stuff.

[Stuart_G]

So OP is searching for some sort of amorphous new swing “feel” that is coincidentally connected to an obscure fitting technique that he doesnt actually know about? Wild stuff.

 

There is nothing really new about it. I'd say that 95% of any aspect of equipment fitting comes down to "feel" in one way or another. Shaft weight, shaft balance point, swing weight, shaft stiffness, grip size, how the head design effects the feel of impact, ball selection, etc... Butt weight is just one more variable that can be adjusted to contribute to the overall feel of the club. It's just much more commonly used in putters than in the full swing.

 

We generally try to quantify all the weight related feels into static weight and swing weight/head weight or club MOI. But those are really just over-simplifications for the sake of convenience. The complex dynamics of the swing and all the ways those dynamics can vary for different individuals means there are some 'holes' in being able to fully understand what contributes to the weight feel and how the results can be effected.

 

Would heavier grips work?

 

Yes but usually heavier grips means a larger grip size for full swing grips. And you don't want to compromise having a good fit for grip size just to get more weight. Although there are a few grips that are specifically designed to add some counterbalanced weight w/o changing size - those would be a valid option.

[95124hacker]

Not very new:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/golfweek.com/2004/04/03/counterbalancing-newest-golf-trend/amp/

 

[TollBros]

You will pick up both ball speed and swing speed with a healthy counterbalance. We had a guy who used to use something like 30 gram butt weights and his distance went up significantly with them. If you like that feel, there is a real benefit.

[ProjectX_Mizuno]

Are there any pros out there that counter balance their irons?

[Cwebb]

Are there any pros out there that counter balance their irons?

 

I know Sergio Garcia did. Not sure if he still does.

 

Jack Nicklaus did

[Valtiel]

I'm pretty sure Sergio has for a very long time and likely still does.

 

My experience with it was interesting. I learned first hand that counter balancing definitely does NOT make the club feel lighter like many people seem to think/suggest. I wrote a big post about it somewhere, but the summary was that as you add more and more weight to the butt of the club you obviously change the balance point while increasing the static weight. At a certain point this starts to feel like more effort is required to be "handsy" to manipulate the clubhead, so if you are a particularly handsy/wristy player that wants to weaken that influence then counterbalancing can possibly help there. I swung an old Taylormade Burner fairway wood with a 150g Tour Lock weight in the handle and it was a trip. The very first swing was completely chunked because of how weird it felt. As I adjusted I found that I was using the bigger core muscles more to swing the club and my hands felt completely along for the ride. This may be what lead to Cwebb's results; less hands and small muscles = more consistent impact for some. The ball only wanted to go straight and fairly low, but in a good way. My swing felt like what Bryson DeChambeau's looks like.

 

Overall though it is VERY personal and almost no one can tell you "this will be the right weight for you". Its a complete shot in the dark experiment for most people I think and whether it helps or hurts is just as random.

[Stuart_G]

You will pick up both ball speed and swing speed with a healthy counterbalance. We had a guy who used to use something like 30 gram butt weights and his distance went up significantly with them. If you like that feel, there is a real benefit.

 

If memory serves, according to Tom Wishon, his extensive experiences with counterbalancing showed the results to be unpredictable. Some individuals certainly did see some improvements but there were also equal percentages that also so no changes or found the changes to be detrimental.

 

Certainly no reason not to give it a try since you never know which of the 3 groups you might end up in, but I'm not sure I'd recommend going into the process with high expectations.

[Jagpilotohio]

You will pick up both ball speed and swing speed with a healthy counterbalance. We had a guy who used to use something like 30 gram butt weights and his distance went up significantly with them. If you like that feel, there is a real benefit.

 

 

30 grams in his irons?? Damn. That makes me tired just thinking about it. Sounds like a workout.

[TollBros]

You will pick up both ball speed and swing speed with a healthy counterbalance. We had a guy who used to use something like 30 gram butt weights and his distance went up significantly with them. If you like that feel, there is a real benefit.

 

If memory serves, according to Tom Wishon, his extensive experiences with counterbalancing showed the results to be unpredictable. Some individuals certainly did see some improvements but there were also equal percentages that also so no changes or found the changes to be detrimental.

 

Certainly no reason not to give it a try since you never know which of the 3 groups you might end up in, but I'm not sure I'd recommend going into the process with high expectations.

 

For sure. As the other poster said, I don't see any way to decide if you like it or not other than to do it. I personally hate it. My contact is all over the place in the cb irons, but I'd say based on what I've seen, more guys than not do see good results with it.

[TollBros]

You will pick up both ball speed and swing speed with a healthy counterbalance. We had a guy who used to use something like 30 gram butt weights and his distance went up significantly with them. If you like that feel, there is a real benefit.

 

 

30 grams in his irons?? Damn. That makes me tired just thinking about it. Sounds like a workout.

 

I feel bad for the builder trying to get swingweight right. I think he settled in around C5 or something and they were heavy as hell even with a swingweight that light. It just kept his release very late and he actually picked up speed with it. I guess you just don't know until you try it.

[Cwebb]

I will add one more option. If you ever want to reduce the draw bias or increase the fade bias of club, then try the Tour Lock internal weights, that can be installed at depths down inside the shaft.

 

It's amazing how much it can reduce "rate of closure"

[dunn]

Very Interesting. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

 

So OP is searching for some sort of amorphous new swing “feel” that is coincidentally connected to an obscure fitting technique that he doesnt actually know about? Wild stuff.

Sergio Garcia did this for awhile and maybe still does.....he would play crazy heavy clubs with super light swingweights.....his driver had 103g shaft with a D0 SW.....idk how much weight he used

 

Nicklaus was another who counterbalanced clubs,.....

 

Oh, just read others posted about jack and Serge

 

So in theory it helps handy players generally Tollbros and CWEBB?

[DLiver]

There is an easy way to try this out. You can tape coins to the top of the grip, hit balls, and see if it improves your ball striking. I think a nickel weighs about 5 grams.

[Jagpilotohio]

Very Interesting. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

 

So OP is searching for some sort of amorphous new swing “feel” that is coincidentally connected to an obscure fitting technique that he doesnt actually know about? Wild stuff.

Sergio Garcia did this for awhile and maybe still does.....he would play crazy heavy clubs with super light swingweights.....his driver had 103g shaft with a D0 SW.....idk how much weight he used

 

Nicklaus was another who counterbalanced clubs,.....

 

Oh, just read others posted about jack and Serge

 

So in theory it helps handy players generally Tollbros and CWEBB?

 

No no. I wasn’t clear I suppose. I’ve heard of people doing this with their irons but I’ve never heard of it being done as part of the “normal” or standard fitting process. How does a fitter decide that counterbalancing might help someone? Is it just chance?

 

I’m also unclear as to how it might “feel better”, or what the actual “feel” goal is.

 

In 30 years of playing I’ve never woke up and said, “hey, I think my clubs might feel better with a bunch of weight in the butt end of them”. It just doesn’t seem like a positive concept to me,

 

If it benefits some people, that’s certainly great. It just seems odd to me personally.

[sdandrea]

Old concept - Jack Nicklaus was a proponent, as well as others. It is a very personal feel issue and takes some experimenting. I fell into it when I started using Jumbo grips for pain management, They weighed nearly 70 grams (like adding 20 grams to the butt). In Eye 2 irons that were already C9, it made them very light on the swingweight scale, but my ball striking improved. After that, I pretty much started ignoring swingweight and started using whatever grip was most comfy for me. Doesn't cost much to try. Go for it!

[Mathwiz]

I'm pretty sure Sergio has for a very long time and likely still does.

 

My experience with it was interesting. I learned first hand that counter balancing definitely does NOT make the club feel lighter like many people seem to think/suggest. I wrote a big post about it somewhere, but the summary was that as you add more and more weight to the butt of the club you obviously change the balance point while increasing the static weight. At a certain point this starts to feel like more effort is required to be "handsy" to manipulate the clubhead, so if you are a particularly handsy/wristy player that wants to weaken that influence then counterbalancing can possibly help there. I swung an old Taylormade Burner fairway wood with a 150g Tour Lock weight in the handle and it was a trip. The very first swing was completely chunked because of how weird it felt. As I adjusted I found that I was using the bigger core muscles more to swing the club and my hands felt completely along for the ride. This may be what lead to Cwebb's results; less hands and small muscles = more consistent impact for some. The ball only wanted to go straight and fairly low, but in a good way. My swing felt like what Bryson DeChambeau's looks like.

 

Overall though it is VERY personal and almost no one can tell you "this will be the right weight for you". Its a complete shot in the dark experiment for most people I think and whether it helps or hurts is just as random.

 

Hey Jagpilot......NOW we are talking a bunch of weight! Wow!

[geesecougar2]

Reviving this from the dead 😀. This is something I'm thinking of trying. 

 

Sounds like most counterbalancing use cases is just to stick the counterbalance in there. If I also add weight to the head to bring the swingweight back to what it was pre-counterbalancing, would that defeat the purpose? Would I end up with the same club balance feel, but just a higher static weight?

[ProV1Killa]

On 2/7/2019 at 3:10 PM, Jagpilotohio said:

 

Well, Adding 20 grams in the butt of you grip would most certainly qualify as “a bunch of weight”. Regardless of that, I still don’t understand the point of it.

 

I’m not trying to be a jerk. I’m being quite genuine. I’ve occasionally heard of people doing this in the 30 years I’ve been playing and making clubs, but I’ve never understood the purpose of it because no one has ever clearly explained what they expect to gain by it.

 

I don’t understand what making the club “feel more balanced throughout the swing” means. How is a traditionally built and weighted club not “balanced throughout the swing” to begin with? I guess I just don’t understand the goal of the experiment.

 

Anyway. Experimenting is great. Im goofing around with shafts again this winter. Have fun with it.

 

 

 

 

As taller player I play 1/2 to 3/4 long clubs.  With fewer and fewer b weight heads available I've been told by a couple builders that I should start looking for a shaft that has a higher balance point.  It won't take clubweight away so I assume it will only help the perceived swingweight?

[enfuego]

It will help assuming same static weight. Steel fiber 110 and some KBS shafts have high balance points. There are charts or other resources floating around. I've found reducing total static weight at +1" still helps and gets swing weights down. The b weight heads are the best way but I think anything over 1/2" you'll need both shaft and head adjustments to get where you want.