What up with Jordan?

[SNIPERBBB]

> @straightshot7 said:

> In 2015, when he won 2 of his majors, he was 1st on Tour in Putts Per Round at 27.82...

>

> If he was the ball striking machine you say, hitting many greens, how could he average the least amount of putts per round on Tour without phenomenal putting?

>

> I don't understand the downplay of his putting. Yeah his ball striking was great, but so was his putting. Everyone who watched him play those years was blown away at his putting ability. It's all anyone was talking about.

>

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > > Jordan was winning with his wedge and putter, he cannot fall back to rely on his long game when the shortest of his clubs are not gaining him momentum.

> > > > > Will he come back? Unlikely as there are so many talents on tour now.

> > > >

> > > > Except we know that's not true.

> > > > Spieth was a very solid driver in 2015-2017

> > > > 15th-32nd-44th strokes gained off the tee.

> > > > And elite in ballstriking SG tee to green

> > > > 4-26-2

> > > >

> > > > That is not indicative of a guy that just made a bunch of putts.

> > >

> > > But would he have won 10 PGA Tour tournaments, including 3 Majors, in that time span if his putting was not super elite?

> > >

> > > Let's not pretend his incredible putting, especially from 15-25 feet, wasn't a huge factor in his success.

> >

> > His ball striking and wedge play was better. His putting from that distance was great. But was bad from short range. So a wash.

>

>

 

Two or three ways look at putts per round...low putts can come from missing a bunch of greens and being a scrambling fool or a GIR machine and making a bunch of birdies. You can get the general idea from that.

[Shilgy]

> @straightshot7 said:

> In 2015, when he won 2 of his majors, he was 1st on Tour in Putts Per Round at 27.82...

>

> If he was the ball striking machine you say, hitting many greens, how could he average the least amount of putts per round on Tour without phenomenal putting?

>

> I don't understand the downplay of his putting. Yeah his ball striking was great, but so was his putting. Everyone who watched him play those years was blown away at his putting ability. It's all anyone was talking about.

>

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > > Jordan was winning with his wedge and putter, he cannot fall back to rely on his long game when the shortest of his clubs are not gaining him momentum.

> > > > > Will he come back? Unlikely as there are so many talents on tour now.

> > > >

> > > > Except we know that's not true.

> > > > Spieth was a very solid driver in 2015-2017

> > > > 15th-32nd-44th strokes gained off the tee.

> > > > And elite in ballstriking SG tee to green

> > > > 4-26-2

> > > >

> > > > That is not indicative of a guy that just made a bunch of putts.

> > >

> > > But would he have won 10 PGA Tour tournaments, including 3 Majors, in that time span if his putting was not super elite?

> > >

> > > Let's not pretend his incredible putting, especially from 15-25 feet, wasn't a huge factor in his success.

> >

> > His ball striking and wedge play was better. His putting from that distance was great. But was bad from short range. So a wash.

>

>

 

I did not downplay his putting. The post I replied to said he won with his wedge and putter. He gained more shots on the field elsewhere.

That said you're correct. He did putt great.

[bladehunter]

Strokes gained stat for 2019 is in deed 50th. For 2015 during the best time he was 9th. I’m still looking for the actual strokes gained stat for each. But I’d bet 41 spots isn’t more than 1.4 shots a round. It wasn’t mostly putter.

 

Edit. For 2019 he is .321. For 2015 he was .571. So he’s .2 strokes worse on the greens this year. lol. Yep. Lucky putter was all it was. Literally nothing meaningful between 9th and 50th.

[rafal]

Coach and caddie have to go. This situation won't resolve without a full reset.

 

Very poor Byron Nelson showing, he's average, when once belonged to the elite. He won't be back if he doesn't fully reset. He needs to do a wife swap with Patrick. Justine Reed would get his nuts in a vice and stop this wishy washy good boy pulp bullxxxx that's going on right now.

 

I am so frustrated with his milque toast man-child act at the moment...

[benno_r]

> @rafal said:

> Coach and caddie have to go. This situation won't resolve without a full reset.

>

> Very poor Byron Nelson showing, he's average, when once belonged to the elite. He won't be back if he doesn't fully reset. He needs to do a wife swap with Patrick. Justine Reed would get his nuts in a vice and stop this wishy washy good boy pulp bullxxxx that's going on right now.

>

> I am so frustrated with his milque toast man-child act at the moment...

 

This sums it up. He is just an average run of the mill tour player these days. Might get hot for a round or 2, but never really in contention.

[bladehunter]

> @benno_r said:

> > @rafal said:

> > Coach and caddie have to go. This situation won't resolve without a full reset.

> >

> > Very poor Byron Nelson showing, he's average, when once belonged to the elite. He won't be back if he doesn't fully reset. He needs to do a wife swap with Patrick. Justine Reed would get his nuts in a vice and stop this wishy washy good boy pulp bullxxxx that's going on right now.

> >

> > I am so frustrated with his milque toast man-child act at the moment...

>

> This sums it up. He is just an average run of the mill tour player these days. Might get hot for a round or 2, but never really in contention.

 

Lot like Rory at Augusta. Never really in it.

 

I’m too frustrated with it. But not sure how we blame the caddie. But I do agree that a coaching change is needed. Can’t imagine how a guy like McCormick can let this get so far . Reset yes. Caddie involves ? Nah. I’d bet Mickey has been more frustrated than we are. And has said so. Not much else he can do.

[benno_r]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @benno_r said:

> > > @rafal said:

> > > Coach and caddie have to go. This situation won't resolve without a full reset.

> > >

> > > Very poor Byron Nelson showing, he's average, when once belonged to the elite. He won't be back if he doesn't fully reset. He needs to do a wife swap with Patrick. Justine Reed would get his nuts in a vice and stop this wishy washy good boy pulp bullxxxx that's going on right now.

> > >

> > > I am so frustrated with his milque toast man-child act at the moment...

> >

> > This sums it up. He is just an average run of the mill tour player these days. Might get hot for a round or 2, but never really in contention.

>

> Lot like Rory at Augusta. Never really in it.

>

> I’m too frustrated with it. But not sure how we blame the caddie. But I do agree that a coaching change is needed. Can’t imagine how a guy like McCormick can let this get so far . Reset yes. Caddie involves ? Nah. I’d bet Mickey has been more frustrated than we are. And has said so. Not much else he can do.

 

Agreed, neither were in the hunt at Augusta. However Rory was in the hunt at TOC, Farmers Insurance, Genesis, Mexico, Arnold Palmer, Players, and possibly Wells Fargo.

 

That's why he is elite, and Jordan is run of the mill.

 

 

[cdnglf]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @benno_r said:

> > > @rafal said:

> > > Coach and caddie have to go. This situation won't resolve without a full reset.

> > >

> > > Very poor Byron Nelson showing, he's average, when once belonged to the elite. He won't be back if he doesn't fully reset. He needs to do a wife swap with Patrick. Justine Reed would get his nuts in a vice and stop this wishy washy good boy pulp bullxxxx that's going on right now.

> > >

> > > I am so frustrated with his milque toast man-child act at the moment...

> >

> > This sums it up. He is just an average run of the mill tour player these days. Might get hot for a round or 2, but never really in contention.

>

> Lot like Rory at Augusta. Never really in it.

>

 

Have you considered changing your handle to roryhunter?

[rafal]

It's not about blaming the caddy, they have no right to due process anyway, but getting out of the mire he's stuck in. Mike G. is a substantial part of the environment that simply doesn't work for Jordan anymore. You bet he's frustrated as his earnings have fallen to nearly null in the last 2 seasons. I am sure he'd find a good player interested in his services and I am sure he'll prosper whatever happens.

 

That said he's part of the spastic, endless dialogue enabling, whining soap opera that are Jordan's rounds. Jordan needs someone who will not treat him like a child (remember Grellar is a teacher) but as a man. I consider doubles and triples happening in every damn round a caddy responsibiliy so some extend as well.

[tiderider]

> @rafal said:

> Coach and caddie have to go. This situation won't resolve without a full reset.

>

> Very poor Byron Nelson showing, he's average, when once belonged to the elite. He won't be back if he doesn't fully reset. He needs to do a wife swap with Patrick. Justine Reed would get his nuts in a vice and stop this wishy washy good boy pulp bullxxxx that's going on right now.

>

> I am so frustrated with his milque toast man-child act at the moment...

 

for some reason, i agree with this post ...

 

it would probably turn out great for everyone involved, except jordan's current wife ... and that's just too bad ...

[Titleist_PT23]

> @new2g0lf said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @tiderider said:

> > > > he's -7 with 2 doubles ... made a double from the fairway today on 18 ... it's a pretty bad slump by any standards, but he's making lots of birdies each round, so it's 3 or swings ... and he just got married ... he's adjusting ... jordan will be back, in spades ...

> > > Maybe. People have been saying this for the entire year and so far the slide has just continued. It was "Just wait for Augusta."

> > >

> > > I tend to believe that he's a bit closer given the birdies and few bad holes he's putting up. But I thought this a couple months ago too.

> > >

> > > I guess he's in a good spot to post a decent result this week, if he can avoid imploding on the weekend. I guess anything is a positive for him at this point, **but this week isn't exactly the greatest field.**

> > >

> > > It would be amazing if he can somehow find it for 4 days next week at Bethpage. Doesn't seem likely (state of game and course setup on paper), but it would shut a lot of people up, and his place in history would be cemented.

> >

> > Not to pick on this past but I have read similar so many times. Exactly hope much more difficult would this event be with more top players? The leader is 16 under for two rounds. Spieth is t9 and 9 strokes back.

> > I am a firm believer, certainly could be wrong, that the winning scores rarely are lower with the top players active in an event. They are top players usually because they are more consistent week to week. For one event Amy of these guys can compete with the best.

>

> I agree, a tougher field doesn't usually result in lower scores, just who is posting them.

 

Look, the #1 scoring average is 69.5. 50th is over a shot worse at 70.7. 100th is another shot worse at 71.7.

 

#1. The winning score may not be any lower. However, did it every occur to you that if more of the top players played the Tier 2 events that the scores might be lower? We'll never know but just a thought.

 

#2. Regardless, I believe it is much easier to post a top 10 result if you are competing against people that average 70.7 - 71.7 vs. a bunch of people between 69.5 - 70.7. Actually, I'm not sure what the opposing argument would even be. I know the field at the Byron Nelson wasn't split truly like this but it proves the point.

 

I guess we don't have to worry too much since Jordan posted a T29.

 

Edit: whenever a paragraph is started with a #, the font is huge. Not sure why.

[bladehunter]

> @cdnglf said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @benno_r said:

> > > > @rafal said:

> > > > Coach and caddie have to go. This situation won't resolve without a full reset.

> > > >

> > > > Very poor Byron Nelson showing, he's average, when once belonged to the elite. He won't be back if he doesn't fully reset. He needs to do a wife swap with Patrick. Justine Reed would get his nuts in a vice and stop this wishy washy good boy pulp bullxxxx that's going on right now.

> > > >

> > > > I am so frustrated with his milque toast man-child act at the moment...

> > >

> > > This sums it up. He is just an average run of the mill tour player these days. Might get hot for a round or 2, but never really in contention.

> >

> > Lot like Rory at Augusta. Never really in it.

> >

>

> Have you considered changing your handle to roryhunter?

 

Lol. I’d probably go Royhater. ( correct spelling).

 

But seriously. Rory looks pretty pedestrian anytime Tiger is in the room. It’s all relative folks. At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?

[Titleist_PT23]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @benno_r said:

> > > > > @rafal said:

> > > > > Coach and caddie have to go. This situation won't resolve without a full reset.

> > > > >

> > > > > Very poor Byron Nelson showing, he's average, when once belonged to the elite. He won't be back if he doesn't fully reset. He needs to do a wife swap with Patrick. Justine Reed would get his nuts in a vice and stop this wishy washy good boy pulp bullxxxx that's going on right now.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am so frustrated with his milque toast man-child act at the moment...

> > > >

> > > > This sums it up. He is just an average run of the mill tour player these days. Might get hot for a round or 2, but never really in contention.

> > >

> > > Lot like Rory at Augusta. Never really in it.

> > >

> >

> > Have you considered changing your handle to roryhunter?

>

> Lol. I’d probably go Royhater. ( correct spelling).

>

> But seriously. Rory looks pretty pedestrian anytime Tiger is in the room. It’s all relative folks. At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?

 

To be clear, before Rory turned 26 he had 10 wins and 4 majors. Basically the same or probably slightly ahead given the column that matters most. Rory also had 5 European tour wins at this age. The major column wouldn't have changed but he may have booked another win or two had he played the U.S. tour exclusively when he was younger. Who knows. I would also argue that Rory's wins (non-majors) are collectively in better tournaments, but I also think this is splitting hairs and 30 years from now no one will care.

 

No doubt that Rory's last four years have been somewhat of a disappointment. It remains to be seen if Spieth will be at 15 and 4 before he turns 30. 4 wins and a 1 major is reasonably doable if he can find something close to his prior game (he has roughly 4 years).

 

Either could be noticeably ahead of the other by the time it is all said and done...

[straightshot7]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @straightshot7 said:

> > In 2015, when he won 2 of his majors, he was 1st on Tour in Putts Per Round at 27.82...

> >

> > If he was the ball striking machine you say, hitting many greens, how could he average the least amount of putts per round on Tour without phenomenal putting?

> >

> > I don't understand the downplay of his putting. Yeah his ball striking was great, but so was his putting. Everyone who watched him play those years was blown away at his putting ability. It's all anyone was talking about.

> >

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > > > Jordan was winning with his wedge and putter, he cannot fall back to rely on his long game when the shortest of his clubs are not gaining him momentum.

> > > > > > Will he come back? Unlikely as there are so many talents on tour now.

> > > > >

> > > > > Except we know that's not true.

> > > > > Spieth was a very solid driver in 2015-2017

> > > > > 15th-32nd-44th strokes gained off the tee.

> > > > > And elite in ballstriking SG tee to green

> > > > > 4-26-2

> > > > >

> > > > > That is not indicative of a guy that just made a bunch of putts.

> > > >

> > > > But would he have won 10 PGA Tour tournaments, including 3 Majors, in that time span if his putting was not super elite?

> > > >

> > > > Let's not pretend his incredible putting, especially from 15-25 feet, wasn't a huge factor in his success.

> > >

> > > His ball striking and wedge play was better. His putting from that distance was great. But was bad from short range. So a wash.

> >

> >

>

> I did not downplay his putting. The post I replied to said he won with his wedge and putter. He gained more shots on the field elsewhere.

> That said you're correct. He did putt great.

 

Yeah the comment of downplaying was directed at the person I quoted, not at you :smile:

 

As far as where he won or gained the most shots, I don't think there's a stat that totally captures that. E.g. there's no stat for measuring the impact of a timely 25 foot make on both Spieth and his opponent.

 

[JAMH03]

> @new2g0lf said:

> > @JAMH03 said:

> >

> >

> > @bladehunter

> > @JAMH03 said:

> >

> > » show previous quotes

> > By that standard JS has already won so no worries.

> >

> > Lol. I guess touché. But you know I mean ball in the hole , in least tries. That’s a stat technically. But it’s a stat that directly correlates to score. These “ if you’re 109 out in the first cut and not too close to a fire ant mound , you should gain .035% strokes on the field “ stats are the issue in my mind. It’s useless conjecture at best.

> >

> > I don't enjoy specious #'s just for #'s sake by any means. But I'd like you to understand exactly what I was asking for and then showed you.

> >

> > Percentage of available money won rankings 100% correlates with the ball in the hole, "clutchness", "golfing your ball" our useless eye test observations and beyond that they are predictive. Even if you want to only go on what's happened its actually a better and less biased method of comparing relative PGA pros performances over the duration of a season than most any. If you want to substitute scoring average or net scoring average that would be fine. But this stat is about as useful as any.

> >

> > So I requested the stat, looked it up showed you and explained to you why. Given that you can maybe imagine I don't appreciate your

> >

> > "I don't like stats because I like to "keep" it real type minimization of a standard that fulfills your stated preferences. I fully admit that maybe I've missed the point though if you want to explain to me how does JS's % of money won not indicate his level of performance vs his peers on the PGA tour?

> >

> > > @JAMH03 said:

> > > @bladehunter

> > > I was hoping that someone might have useful #'s available to help me put JS's performances in perspective.

> > >

> > > Percentage of total money won when I followed the tour more this was one of my favorite stats because I felt like it was reflective of the golfer who played the best when it meant the most. JS's finishing #'s by year and so far in 2019.

> > >

> > > * 2019 #211

> > > * 2018 #37

> > > * 2017 #2

> > > * 2016 #6

> > > * 2015 #1

> > > * 2014 #16

> > > * 2013 #9

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Beyond that... the other stats that I requested would've been helpful in understanding where JS is at now and if he is improving, falling back or maintaining compared to his performances previously and lately.

> >

> >

>

> Overall it's a good indicator of ones performance but doesn't reflect when a golfer or golfers have a hot streak which impacts the percentage of money won. During Tigers best seasons he was winning or finishing near the top for an entire season. In 2000 Tiger won 9 times and finished Top 10 17 times in 20 starts. If you were a top golfer and had the misfortune of being in all or most of the tournaments Tiger played that year your stat wouldn't properly reflect your performance.

 

This is fascinating.

I didn't post the % of money won saying that Play X won 3% so he 's a scrub because some other year player Y with the same ranking won 12% of potential $

 

I posted JS's rankings on the PGAT tour of % of $ won by year.

In that respect no matter who is hot or whatever % they win the players are ranked and get credit for all the golfers they beat.

 

# 1,2,3 etc

 

 

 

[JAMH03]

"At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?"

 

Not to pick on anyone. Just a logic puzzle for me.

 

This is why we need standards, and if we don't understand or embrace them we can drift.

 

The list below is players with most PGA tour wins sorted by age.

 

Since 25 yr old JS? and 30 yr old RM? have more wins than their peers they are elite compared to everyone interested in playing on the PGA tour their age or younger. Add to that they have more majors than all the next 15 golfers on the list. More wins, and more majors.

 

I don't think this is an issue of cherry picked data or stats. I think that is an objective standard of excellence. So I don't understand the question they both seem to qualify as greatest in the world their age or younger.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_golfers_with_most_PGA_Tour_wins

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shilgy]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @new2g0lf said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > @tiderider said:

> > > > > he's -7 with 2 doubles ... made a double from the fairway today on 18 ... it's a pretty bad slump by any standards, but he's making lots of birdies each round, so it's 3 or swings ... and he just got married ... he's adjusting ... jordan will be back, in spades ...

> > > > Maybe. People have been saying this for the entire year and so far the slide has just continued. It was "Just wait for Augusta."

> > > >

> > > > I tend to believe that he's a bit closer given the birdies and few bad holes he's putting up. But I thought this a couple months ago too.

> > > >

> > > > I guess he's in a good spot to post a decent result this week, if he can avoid imploding on the weekend. I guess anything is a positive for him at this point, **but this week isn't exactly the greatest field.**

> > > >

> > > > It would be amazing if he can somehow find it for 4 days next week at Bethpage. Doesn't seem likely (state of game and course setup on paper), but it would shut a lot of people up, and his place in history would be cemented.

> > >

> > > Not to pick on this past but I have read similar so many times. Exactly hope much more difficult would this event be with more top players? The leader is 16 under for two rounds. Spieth is t9 and 9 strokes back.

> > > I am a firm believer, certainly could be wrong, that the winning scores rarely are lower with the top players active in an event. They are top players usually because they are more consistent week to week. For one event Amy of these guys can compete with the best.

> >

> > I agree, a tougher field doesn't usually result in lower scores, just who is posting them.

>

> Look, the #1 scoring average is 69.5. 50th is over a shot worse at 70.7. 100th is another shot worse at 71.7.

>

> #1. The winning score may not be any lower. However, did it every occur to you that if more of the top players played the Tier 2 events that the scores might be lower? We'll never know but just a thought.

>

> #2. Regardless, I believe it is much easier to post a top 10 result if you are competing against people that average 70.7 - 71.7 vs. a bunch of people between 69.5 - 70.7. Actually, I'm not sure what the opposing argument would even be. I know the field at the Byron Nelson wasn't split truly like this but it proves the point.

>

> I guess we don't have to worry too much since Jordan posted a T29.

>

> Edit: whenever a paragraph is started with a #, the font is huge. Not sure why.

 

Yes to all, but.... The lower average score is largely based on being more consistent week to week. Any given week a Every, Kang, Duncan, Uihlein will play as well as the big names. They just have more off weeks.

 

But you are 100% correct. They top guys are MORE LIKELY to have a high finish any given week which makes a top ten more difficult. But not lower scoring either though that sounds counterintuitive.

[bladehunter]

> @JAMH03 said:

> "At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?"

>

> Not to pick on anyone. Just a logic puzzle for me.

>

> This is why we need standards, and if we don't understand or embrace them we can drift.

>

> The list below is players with most PGA tour wins sorted by age.

>

> Since 25 yr old JS? and 30 yr old RM? have more wins than their peers they are elite compared to everyone interested in playing on the PGA tour their age or younger. Add to that they have more majors than all the next 15 golfers on the list. More wins, and more majors.

>

> I don't think this is an issue of cherry picked data or stats. I think that is an objective standard of excellence. So I don't understand the question they both seem to qualify as greatest in the world their age or younger.

>

>

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_golfers_with_most_PGA_Tour_wins

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

Exactly. And I’ll add. Jordan has 5 years to pass Rory at 30. That’s an advantage too.

 

But You know. Rory good. Jordan bad.

[tsecor]

When you win a major by 8 shots vs winning a major with your competitor 3 putting from 8 feet away, there is a difference. Rory may be the most talented player on tour but he has his fair share of chokes, especially with his putting.....He should already have 5 or 6 majors but he choked in the masters more than once.....at the end of the day, they are both great great players. every golfer goes through dry spells.....Nicklaus, Tiger, Arnie.....it really means nothing until their careers are over

[bladehunter]

> @tsecor said:

> When you win a major by 8 shots vs winning a major with your competitor 3 putting from 8 feet away, there is a difference. Rory may be the most talented player on tour but he has his fair share of chokes, especially with his putting.....He should already have 5 or 6 majors but he choked in the masters more than once.....at the end of the day, they are both great great players. every golfer goes through dry spells.....Nicklaus, Tiger, Arnie.....it really means nothing until their careers are over

 

Lol. Come on now. Last part is true. First part. Not. He won the 2015 masters by 4. Beat Rory by 6 and tied several records held by tiger.

And the 3 putt by DJ didn’t hand him the win. The glorious 3 wood Jordan hit into 18 did. Remember. Nobody made putts on those greens. A 2 putt by dj wasn’t a given. And certainly he wasn’t assured to 1 putt. Looked like a lag putt from 12 feet. If those two are in the same group coming in you don’t see it the same way. Dj wasn’t leading until a bad shot by Jordan on 16 or 17 ( I forget ). So it wasn’t Dj choking it away. Just not capitalizing on the small chance he had. Remeber he blistered a drive on 18 and had an iron ( 5 iron ) in to Jordan’s 3 wood. Jordan hit a better shot and got it in the hole. He deserved to win. And Rory hasn’t sniffed playing like he did when he won by 8. Easier to call that a fluke than anything since it hasn’t been repeated.

[cdnglf]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @JAMH03 said:

> > "At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?"

> >

> > Not to pick on anyone. Just a logic puzzle for me.

> >

> > This is why we need standards, and if we don't understand or embrace them we can drift.

> >

> > The list below is players with most PGA tour wins sorted by age.

> >

> > Since 25 yr old JS? and 30 yr old RM? have more wins than their peers they are elite compared to everyone interested in playing on the PGA tour their age or younger. Add to that they have more majors than all the next 15 golfers on the list. More wins, and more majors.

> >

> > I don't think this is an issue of cherry picked data or stats. I think that is an objective standard of excellence. So I don't understand the question they both seem to qualify as greatest in the world their age or younger.

> >

> >

> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_golfers_with_most_PGA_Tour_wins

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Exactly. And I’ll add. Jordan has 5 years to pass Rory at 30. That’s an advantage too.

>

> But You know. Rory good. Jordan bad.

 

What is the point of this laughably selective career comparison?

 

Why is Rory even in a discussion about Jordan’s precipitous decline?

 

Rory’s current game is pretty good (#4 owgr, players champ, sg leader), and he’s never had a slump anywhere close to this.

[bladehunter]

> @cdnglf said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @JAMH03 said:

> > > "At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?"

> > >

> > > Not to pick on anyone. Just a logic puzzle for me.

> > >

> > > This is why we need standards, and if we don't understand or embrace them we can drift.

> > >

> > > The list below is players with most PGA tour wins sorted by age.

> > >

> > > Since 25 yr old JS? and 30 yr old RM? have more wins than their peers they are elite compared to everyone interested in playing on the PGA tour their age or younger. Add to that they have more majors than all the next 15 golfers on the list. More wins, and more majors.

> > >

> > > I don't think this is an issue of cherry picked data or stats. I think that is an objective standard of excellence. So I don't understand the question they both seem to qualify as greatest in the world their age or younger.

> > >

> > >

> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_golfers_with_most_PGA_Tour_wins

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Exactly. And I’ll add. Jordan has 5 years to pass Rory at 30. That’s an advantage too.

> >

> > But You know. Rory good. Jordan bad.

>

> What is the point of this laughably selective career comparison?

>

> Why is Rory even in a discussion about Jordan’s precipitous decline?

>

> Rory’s current game is pretty good (#4 owgr, players champ, sg leader), and he’s never had a slump anywhere close to this.

 

First off. Ask Benno. He’s inserted Rory several times in this thread.

 

Second. It goes to show that Jordan’s record to date is really better than Rory’s. You have to remember the 5 year gap in age and the length of time Rory has been pro. And the Am career isn’t even a close call. The point is Jordan will be fine. If he stops playing tomorrow he’s in the hall of fame. All the idiotic “ he’s just mediocre , he’s done “ comments are eerily similar to reading tiger threads from a year ago. We know how that ended.

[cdnglf]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @JAMH03 said:

> > > > "At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?"

> > > >

> > > > Not to pick on anyone. Just a logic puzzle for me.

> > > >

> > > > This is why we need standards, and if we don't understand or embrace them we can drift.

> > > >

> > > > The list below is players with most PGA tour wins sorted by age.

> > > >

> > > > Since 25 yr old JS? and 30 yr old RM? have more wins than their peers they are elite compared to everyone interested in playing on the PGA tour their age or younger. Add to that they have more majors than all the next 15 golfers on the list. More wins, and more majors.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think this is an issue of cherry picked data or stats. I think that is an objective standard of excellence. So I don't understand the question they both seem to qualify as greatest in the world their age or younger.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_golfers_with_most_PGA_Tour_wins

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Exactly. And I’ll add. Jordan has 5 years to pass Rory at 30. That’s an advantage too.

> > >

> > > But You know. Rory good. Jordan bad.

> >

> > What is the point of this laughably selective career comparison?

> >

> > Why is Rory even in a discussion about Jordan’s precipitous decline?

> >

> > Rory’s current game is pretty good (#4 owgr, players champ, sg leader), and he’s never had a slump anywhere close to this.

>

> First off. Ask Benno. He’s inserted Rory several times in this thread.

>

> Second. It goes to show that Jordan’s record to date is really better than Rory’s. You have to remember the 5 year gap in age and the length of time Rory has been pro. And the Am career isn’t even a close call. The point is Jordan will be fine. If he stops playing tomorrow he’s in the hall of fame. All the idiotic “ he’s just mediocre , he’s done “ comments are eerily similar to reading tiger threads from a year ago. We know how that ended.

 

 

“It goes to show that Jordan’s record to date is really better than Rory’s.”

 

Even the most insane Rory hater (ie you) can’t actually believe this...

 

 

[gvogel]

Looking at stats for this year, Rory is averaging 20 yards longer off the tee than Jordan (314 v. 294), and Rory's GIR is 78.8% (second only to Tiger) while Jordan is T135 at 67.8%. At present, Jordan is shorter off the tee, and more crooked. In order for Jordan to compete, he has to be phenomenal with the flatstick. He was at one point, but not so much now. That's the way I see it.

 

The PGA should be interesting on a pretty long, and soft golf course.

[JAMH03]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @JAMH03 said:

> > "At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?"

> >

> > Not to pick on anyone. Just a logic puzzle for me.

> >

> > This is why we need standards, and if we don't understand or embrace them we can drift.

> >

> > The list below is players with most PGA tour wins sorted by age.

> >

> > Since 25 yr old JS? and 30 yr old RM? have more wins than their peers they are elite compared to everyone interested in playing on the PGA tour their age or younger. Add to that they have more majors than all the next 15 golfers on the list. More wins, and more majors.

> >

> > I don't think this is an issue of cherry picked data or stats. I think that is an objective standard of excellence. So I don't understand the question they both seem to qualify as greatest in the world their age or younger.

> >

> >

> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_golfers_with_most_PGA_Tour_wins

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Exactly. And I’ll add. Jordan has 5 years to pass Rory at 30. That’s an advantage too.

>

> But You know. Rory good. Jordan bad.

 

Ahhhhh I see now, well being interested in fair comparisons I never even worried about what THEY were saying. I went straight for the #'s and missed their 2 cents. Sounds like maybe I didn't miss very much after all. :tongue:

[bladehunter]

> @cdnglf said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @cdnglf said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @JAMH03 said:

> > > > > "At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?"

> > > > >

> > > > > Not to pick on anyone. Just a logic puzzle for me.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is why we need standards, and if we don't understand or embrace them we can drift.

> > > > >

> > > > > The list below is players with most PGA tour wins sorted by age.

> > > > >

> > > > > Since 25 yr old JS? and 30 yr old RM? have more wins than their peers they are elite compared to everyone interested in playing on the PGA tour their age or younger. Add to that they have more majors than all the next 15 golfers on the list. More wins, and more majors.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't think this is an issue of cherry picked data or stats. I think that is an objective standard of excellence. So I don't understand the question they both seem to qualify as greatest in the world their age or younger.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_golfers_with_most_PGA_Tour_wins

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Exactly. And I’ll add. Jordan has 5 years to pass Rory at 30. That’s an advantage too.

> > > >

> > > > But You know. Rory good. Jordan bad.

> > >

> > > What is the point of this laughably selective career comparison?

> > >

> > > Why is Rory even in a discussion about Jordan’s precipitous decline?

> > >

> > > Rory’s current game is pretty good (#4 owgr, players champ, sg leader), and he’s never had a slump anywhere close to this.

> >

> > First off. Ask Benno. He’s inserted Rory several times in this thread.

> >

> > Second. It goes to show that Jordan’s record to date is really better than Rory’s. You have to remember the 5 year gap in age and the length of time Rory has been pro. And the Am career isn’t even a close call. The point is Jordan will be fine. If he stops playing tomorrow he’s in the hall of fame. All the idiotic “ he’s just mediocre , he’s done “ comments are eerily similar to reading tiger threads from a year ago. We know how that ended.

>

>

> “It goes to show that Jordan’s record to date is really better than Rory’s.”

>

> Even the most insane Rory hater (ie you) can’t actually believe this...

>

>

 

 

Mmmkay ? I’d capitulate to a compromise of “mostly equal”. But 4 majors is 1 more than 3. 15 is 4 more than 11. Rory has euro wins sure. Jordan has multiples outside the us as well. But Rory has little to no major am record. Jordan has 2 us junior ams ( only tied by tiger ) and a ncaa. Rory was world #1 am for less than a week. A day or two as I recall. Jordan was world #1 am for a while.

 

Like I said. I’d go equal as can be ... but Rory hasn’t done near as much of you factor in potential. Rory should have 8 majors and 20 wins by now. I’ll predict Jordan has 5 majors and 17 wins at least by age 30. Not a bridge too far in a 5 year stretch.

[cdnglf]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @tsecor said:

> > When you win a major by 8 shots vs winning a major with your competitor 3 putting from 8 feet away, there is a difference. Rory may be the most talented player on tour but he has his fair share of chokes, especially with his putting.....He should already have 5 or 6 majors but he choked in the masters more than once.....at the end of the day, they are both great great players. every golfer goes through dry spells.....Nicklaus, Tiger, Arnie.....it really means nothing until their careers are over

>

> Lol. Come on now. Last part is true. First part. Not. He won the 2015 masters by 4. Beat Rory by 6 and tied several records held by tiger.

> And the 3 putt by DJ didn’t hand him the win. The glorious 3 wood Jordan hit into 18 did. Remember. Nobody made putts on those greens. A 2 putt by dj wasn’t a given. And certainly he wasn’t assured to 1 putt. Looked like a lag putt from 12 feet. If those two are in the same group coming in you don’t see it the same way. Dj wasn’t leading until a bad shot by Jordan on 16 or 17 ( I forget ). So it wasn’t Dj choking it away. Just not capitalizing on the small chance he had. Remeber he blistered a drive on 18 and had an iron ( 5 iron ) in to Jordan’s 3 wood. Jordan hit a better shot and got it in the hole. He deserved to win. And Rory hasn’t sniffed playing like he did when he won by 8. Easier to call that a fluke than anything since it hasn’t been repeated.

 

Rory won a major by 8. Then he won another major by 8. Kind of the definition of repeated.

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @cdnglf said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @tsecor said:

> > > When you win a major by 8 shots vs winning a major with your competitor 3 putting from 8 feet away, there is a difference. Rory may be the most talented player on tour but he has his fair share of chokes, especially with his putting.....He should already have 5 or 6 majors but he choked in the masters more than once.....at the end of the day, they are both great great players. every golfer goes through dry spells.....Nicklaus, Tiger, Arnie.....it really means nothing until their careers are over

> >

> > Lol. Come on now. Last part is true. First part. Not. He won the 2015 masters by 4. Beat Rory by 6 and tied several records held by tiger.

> > And the 3 putt by DJ didn’t hand him the win. The glorious 3 wood Jordan hit into 18 did. Remember. Nobody made putts on those greens. A 2 putt by dj wasn’t a given. And certainly he wasn’t assured to 1 putt. Looked like a lag putt from 12 feet. If those two are in the same group coming in you don’t see it the same way. Dj wasn’t leading until a bad shot by Jordan on 16 or 17 ( I forget ). So it wasn’t Dj choking it away. Just not capitalizing on the small chance he had. Remeber he blistered a drive on 18 and had an iron ( 5 iron ) in to Jordan’s 3 wood. Jordan hit a better shot and got it in the hole. He deserved to win. And Rory hasn’t sniffed playing like he did when he won by 8. Easier to call that a fluke than anything since it hasn’t been repeated.

>

> Rory won a major by 8. Then he won another major by 8. Kind of the definition of repeated.

>

>

 

Point taken. I've said before. I came to the game after 2013. So I have never seen Rory play well longer than a week at a time. But numbers are numbers. His record isn’t glaringly better than Jordan’s. Not at all when you factor in achievement by age.

[cdnglf]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @cdnglf said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @JAMH03 said:

> > > > > > "At 25 Jordan has 11 pga tour wins and 3 majors. Rory at 30 has 15 wins and 4 majors. Hmmm. How does that correlate to Jordan bad , Rory good ?"

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not to pick on anyone. Just a logic puzzle for me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is why we need standards, and if we don't understand or embrace them we can drift.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The list below is players with most PGA tour wins sorted by age.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Since 25 yr old JS? and 30 yr old RM? have more wins than their peers they are elite compared to everyone interested in playing on the PGA tour their age or younger. Add to that they have more majors than all the next 15 golfers on the list. More wins, and more majors.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't think this is an issue of cherry picked data or stats. I think that is an objective standard of excellence. So I don't understand the question they both seem to qualify as greatest in the world their age or younger.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_golfers_with_most_PGA_Tour_wins

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Exactly. And I’ll add. Jordan has 5 years to pass Rory at 30. That’s an advantage too.

> > > > >

> > > > > But You know. Rory good. Jordan bad.

> > > >

> > > > What is the point of this laughably selective career comparison?

> > > >

> > > > Why is Rory even in a discussion about Jordan’s precipitous decline?

> > > >

> > > > Rory’s current game is pretty good (#4 owgr, players champ, sg leader), and he’s never had a slump anywhere close to this.

> > >

> > > First off. Ask Benno. He’s inserted Rory several times in this thread.

> > >

> > > Second. It goes to show that Jordan’s record to date is really better than Rory’s. You have to remember the 5 year gap in age and the length of time Rory has been pro. And the Am career isn’t even a close call. The point is Jordan will be fine. If he stops playing tomorrow he’s in the hall of fame. All the idiotic “ he’s just mediocre , he’s done “ comments are eerily similar to reading tiger threads from a year ago. We know how that ended.

> >

> >

> > “It goes to show that Jordan’s record to date is really better than Rory’s.”

> >

> > Even the most insane Rory hater (ie you) can’t actually believe this...

> >

> >

>

>

> Mmmkay ? I’d capitulate to a compromise of “mostly equal”. But 4 majors is 1 more than 3. 15 is 4 more than 11. Rory has euro wins sure. Jordan has multiples outside the us as well. But Rory has little to no major am record. Jordan has 2 us junior ams ( only tied by tiger ) and a ncaa. Rory was world #1 am for less than a week. A day or two as I recall. Jordan was world #1 am for a while.

>

> Like I said. I’d go equal as can be ... but Rory hasn’t done near as much of you factor in potential. Rory should have 8 majors and 20 wins by now. I’ll predict Jordan has 5 majors and 17 wins at least by age 30. Not a bridge too far in a 5 year stretch.

 

Mentioning the Jr Am while ignoring the Players is just full on trolling.

 

Rory has 23 wins; Jordan has 14.

[Cool Runnings]

Bladehunter:

“And Rory hasn’t sniffed playing like he did when he won by 8. Easier to call that a fluke than anything since it hasn’t been repeated.”

 

Not true. Rory won his very next major by 8 shots also. So he’s won 2 majors by 8 shots while breaking records.

 

> @bladehunter said:

> > @tsecor said:

> > When you win a major by 8 shots vs winning a major with your competitor 3 putting from 8 feet away, there is a difference. Rory may be the most talented player on tour but he has his fair share of chokes, especially with his putting.....He should already have 5 or 6 majors but he choked in the masters more than once.....at the end of the day, they are both great great players. every golfer goes through dry spells.....Nicklaus, Tiger, Arnie.....it really means nothing until their careers are over

>

> Lol. Come on now. Last part is true. First part. Not. He won the 2015 masters by 4. Beat Rory by 6 and tied several records held by tiger.

> And the 3 putt by DJ didn’t hand him the win. The glorious 3 wood Jordan hit into 18 did. Remember. Nobody made putts on those greens. A 2 putt by dj wasn’t a given. And certainly he wasn’t assured to 1 putt. Looked like a lag putt from 12 feet. If those two are in the same group coming in you don’t see it the same way. Dj wasn’t leading until a bad shot by Jordan on 16 or 17 ( I forget ). So it wasn’t Dj choking it away. Just not capitalizing on the small chance he had. Remeber he blistered a drive on 18 and had an iron ( 5 iron ) in to Jordan’s 3 wood. Jordan hit a better shot and got it in the hole. He deserved to win. And Rory hasn’t sniffed playing like he did when he won by 8. Easier to call that a fluke than anything since it hasn’t been repeated.