Fastest part of golf swing

[Joe Hill]

> @RobertBaron said:

> Is it even possible to slow down right before impact unless you’re really making an effort to decelerate?

 

Considering the window for maximum club head speed and maximum rate of club head acceleration is tiny, it's very easy, and common, to reach that point prior to impact.

[Joe Hill]

> @trilerian said:

> So... Did anyone else catch the video of Koepka's swing where the announcers were saying that the fastest part of his swing was well before hitting the ball? They then went on to say that those who hit the ball the longest get the fastest part of their swing closer to the ball.

 

I was stunned that Kostis implied the fastest point, a foot or so before impact, is "normal". It only makes sense that the greater the rate of acceleration, the more compression is imparted on the ball. He's saying even the pros club head is _decelerating_ prior to impact? I'd be scared of the distances achieved if they learn to accelerate into the ball, that being the case.

[nsxguy]

It's funny how a lot of things in golf are counter-intuitive.

 

A right handed beginner slices the ball and to fix it he aims further left. LOL And of course slices it more. And to think some knuckleheads around here don't want to know anything about physics and why the ball does what it does- they just want to "feel" the shot. LOL

 

But it's incredible the stuff you learn around this place. Yes, I've read a number of times around here in the past couple of years that the club IS actually slowing down as it reaches the ball. The player isn't "decelerating" at all. It's the physics of the swing; the bio-mechanics.

 

Also was "fooled" many times, just like so many others, thinking the club head is ahead of the shaft just before impact as well, i.e. the shaft (for a righty) looks a little like the letter "C" just before impact. But turns out that's a well known photographic effect where the camera couldn't capture the high speed movement correctly and now, with the super high speed cameras we can actually see that the clubhead trails slightly,,,,,,,,,, just as one would actually expect.

[Golfrnut]

> @nsxguy said:

> It's funny how a lot of things in golf are counter-intuitive.

>

> A right handed beginner slices the ball and to fix it he aims further left. LOL And of course slices it more. And top think some knuckleheads around here don't want to know anything about physics and why the ball does what it does- they just want to "feel" the shot. LOL

>

> But it's incredible the stuff you learn around this place. Yes, I've read a number of times around here in the past couple of years that the club IS actually slowing down as it reaches the ball. The player isn't "decelerating" at all. It's the physics of the swing; the bio-mechanics.

>

> Also was "fooled" many times, just like so many others, thinking the club head is ahead of the shaft just before impact as well, i.e. the shaft (for a righty) looks a little like the letter "C" just before impact. But turns out that's a well known photographic effect where the camera couldn't capture the high speed movement correctly and now, with the super high speed cameras we can actually see that the clubhead trails slightly,,,,,,,,,, just as one would actually expect.

 

Lead deflection of the shaft, at impact, is common for better players. It’s actually the opposite of what you posted.

[DYOS4]

Someone should tell Brooks and Claude!

Ideally, you want club head velocity highest at impact not necessarily the acceleration.

[nsxguy]

> @Golfrnut said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > It's funny how a lot of things in golf are counter-intuitive.

> >

> > A right handed beginner slices the ball and to fix it he aims further left. LOL And of course slices it more. And top think some knuckleheads around here don't want to know anything about physics and why the ball does what it does- they just want to "feel" the shot. LOL

> >

> > But it's incredible the stuff you learn around this place. Yes, I've read a number of times around here in the past couple of years that the club IS actually slowing down as it reaches the ball. The player isn't "decelerating" at all. It's the physics of the swing; the bio-mechanics.

> >

> > Also was "fooled" many times, just like so many others, thinking the club head is ahead of the shaft just before impact as well, i.e. the shaft (for a righty) looks a little like the letter "C" just before impact. But turns out that's a well known photographic effect where the camera couldn't capture the high speed movement correctly and now, with the super high speed cameras we can actually see that the clubhead trails slightly,,,,,,,,,, just as one would actually expect.

>

> Lead deflection of the shaft, at impact, is common for better players. It’s actually the opposite of what you posted.

 

If you say so.

 

I'm not going to go looking for the posts/threads about the "C" being a camera issue and current high speed photography disproving the older stuff.

 

So instead of the major league looking "C" of the older photos, it's just a tiny bit of lead deflection, not trail. Got it.

[Golfrnut]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Golfrnut said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > It's funny how a lot of things in golf are counter-intuitive.

> > >

> > > A right handed beginner slices the ball and to fix it he aims further left. LOL And of course slices it more. And top think some knuckleheads around here don't want to know anything about physics and why the ball does what it does- they just want to "feel" the shot. LOL

> > >

> > > But it's incredible the stuff you learn around this place. Yes, I've read a number of times around here in the past couple of years that the club IS actually slowing down as it reaches the ball. The player isn't "decelerating" at all. It's the physics of the swing; the bio-mechanics.

> > >

> > > Also was "fooled" many times, just like so many others, thinking the club head is ahead of the shaft just before impact as well, i.e. the shaft (for a righty) looks a little like the letter "C" just before impact. But turns out that's a well known photographic effect where the camera couldn't capture the high speed movement correctly and now, with the super high speed cameras we can actually see that the clubhead trails slightly,,,,,,,,,, just as one would actually expect.

> >

> > Lead deflection of the shaft, at impact, is common for better players. It’s actually the opposite of what you posted.

>

> If you say so.

>

> So instead of the major league looking "C" of the older photos, it's just a tiny bit of lead deflection, not trail. Got it.

 

Yup! Some form of lead deflection, but yes, not to the amount the shutter effect gives you. The two videos posted on page one are a good visual representation.

 

 

[oiler45]

Some misinformation in this thread … velocity is the prime component of distance - not acceleration. A clubhead traveling at 100 mph at impact will impart the same energy whether it is accelerating or decelerating - as long as precisely at impact the club is traveling the exact same speed it doesn't matter whether it is speeding up or slowing down prior to impact.

No way a pro's hands are moving anywhere 70 mph - my Zepp 2 Analyzer measures my driver clubhead speed at 96 mph and my hand speed at 19 mph - of course the pros are faster but maybe mid 20's or so.

And yes - I is an engineer …..

[Stuart_G]

> @Kevlar10 said:

> > @Stuart_G said:

> > > @Kevlar10 said:

> > > The physics says that you should not only reach your maximum swing speed just as you are hitting the ball, but you should also be at your maximum acceleration at that point.

> >

> > Sorry, the physics doesn't say anything of the sort. And it's the biomechanics (what the body is capable of and how it's used) that will dictate the limits/requirements, not physics.

> >

> >

> I was not talking about the mechanics of the body during the swing, I am talking about the physics of the club head impacting the ball.

 

So was I - although the one has to come from the other so you can't really separate them. Physics only tells us that the head velocity after impact will be slower than before impact. Without the biomechanics details, it' doesn't tell us anything about the velocity or acceleration profiles leading up to impact. And that's what this conversation is about.

 

> @Kevlar10 said:

> If I was talking about the biomechanics of the swing, I would have said that you **want** to reach maximum torque at impact with the vector to the arc of the swing plane aligned with the desired direction of travel.

>

 

No, you want maximum velocity at impact, where you want maximum acceleration (or torque) will depend on the capabilities of how power can be applied and utilized during various parts of the swing. e.g. a car has the greatest torque at the low gears and the lowest velocities so acceleration maxes out at the lower speeds not at the highest speeds. But for the golf swing, that just brings us back to the biomechanics.

 

But the key here is that wanting to do something and doing it are two completely different things.

 

 

 

[ScratchyDawg]

> @oiler45 said:

> Some misinformation in this thread … velocity is the prime component of distance - not acceleration. A clubhead traveling at 100 mph at impact will impart the same energy whether it is accelerating or decelerating - as long as precisely at impact the club is traveling the exact same speed it doesn't matter whether it is speeding up or slowing down prior to impact.

> No way a pro's hands are moving anywhere 70 mph - my Zepp 2 Analyzer measures my driver clubhead speed at 96 mph and my hand speed at 19 mph - of course the pros are faster but maybe mid 20's or so.

> And yes - I is an engineer …..

 

Correct...Velocity and mass (i.e. momentum) determines distance. If you want more distance, increase the velocity, or the mass, or both. It's very difficult to do both in a golf swing.

[cxx]

It's not surprising. How else can the club head pass the shaft line at impact? Yes, this is evident in video where the shutter effect is eliminated.

[Three_Jack]

> @cxx said:

> It's not surprising. How else can the club head pass the shaft line at impact? Yes, this is evident in video where the shutter effect is eliminated.

 

Lol whoa.. people still think this happens?

[Stuart_G]

> @Three_Jack said:

> > @cxx said:

> > It's not surprising. How else can the club head pass the shaft line at impact? Yes, this is evident in video where the shutter effect is eliminated.

>

> Lol whoa.. people still think this happens?

 

We don't think it happens, we know it happens - at least in better swings that don't unload the shaft too early in the swing. It was proven (directly measured) a long time ago - early '90's if not earlier.

 

[Three_Jack]

> @Stuart_G said:

> > @Three_Jack said:

> > > @cxx said:

> > > It's not surprising. How else can the club head pass the shaft line at impact? Yes, this is evident in video where the shutter effect is eliminated.

> >

> > Lol whoa.. people still think this happens?

>

> We don't think it happens, we know it happens - at least in better swings that don't unload the shaft too early in the swing. It was proven (directly measured) a long time ago - early '90's if not earlier.

>

 

I would google "Rolling Shutter effect"...

 

[glk]

> @Three_Jack said:

> > @Stuart_G said:

> > > @Three_Jack said:

> > > > @cxx said:

> > > > It's not surprising. How else can the club head pass the shaft line at impact? Yes, this is evident in video where the shutter effect is eliminated.

> > >

> > > Lol whoa.. people still think this happens?

> >

> > We don't think it happens, we know it happens - at least in better swings that don't unload the shaft too early in the swing. It was proven (directly measured) a long time ago - early '90's if not earlier.

> >

>

> I would google "Rolling Shutter effect"...

>

 

> @Three_Jack said:

> > @Stuart_G said:

> > > @Three_Jack said:

> > > > @cxx said:

> > > > It's not surprising. How else can the club head pass the shaft line at impact? Yes, this is evident in video where the shutter effect is eliminated.

> > >

> > > Lol whoa.. people still think this happens?

> >

> > We don't think it happens, we know it happens - at least in better swings that don't unload the shaft too early in the swing. It was proven (directly measured) a long time ago - early '90's if not earlier.

> >

>

> I would google "Rolling Shutter effect"...

>

 

Watch the video's in post 24, lead deflection is a real thing.

[Stuart_G]

> @Three_Jack said:

> I would google "Rolling Shutter effect"...

>

 

Irrelevant - we're not talking about cheap phone videos taken by amateurs who don't know any better but actual high accuracy data collection and analysis results done during true scientific studies. You should google "True Temper ShaftLab" - shaft deflection was measured through the swing - and including at impact with strain gauges - not imaging. The best descriptions of those tests can be found on Tutelman's web site (google "Tutelman ShaftLab" will get you there). And plenty of cameras w/o a rolling shutters have been used to capture the effect in images as well in scientific studies since. Even in the 70's and 80's strobes were used with long exposure times to get similar results to today's high speed motion capture cameras.

 

[LeftDaddy]

I saw the video and was glad he said it. I’ve “sensed” for a long time that this was a myth, but nevertheless tried to pursue it.

 

Every font in this thread speaks authoritatively as if they are the expert on this topic, yet we’ve had about 10 different explanations for it thus far.

 

Although at one time in my life, I too was an engineer, I’ll just gloss over all of the technical stuff about shaft bend and loading, angular acceleration, etc and just say that I suspect the answer is simpler than all that.

 

Better players both square the face more efficiently, and they have a better sense for proper impact conditions. There is a time lag between when your brain decides it is time to “explode into the ball” and when the clubhead does in fact explode into the ball square to its path. The consequence of missing that moment late yields a bad outcome. Early does too, but compensations can be made if you are early. Thus, a player’s brain “releases” at a certain moment, but just early enough to ensure better outcomes. The better player being able to square the face more efficiently and to create more optimal impact conditions can just time that instant more precisely than poorer players.

 

That’s my $0.02 and I’m sure someone else that’s “smarter” will tell me how I’m wrong ?

[mudge]

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @Man_O_War said:

> > > @juststeve said:

> > > I once believed that one should accelerate the club through impact reaching maximum speed after the ball is struck. Having been show data that indicates that all golfers actually decelerate prior to impact I now believe one should imagine accelerating through the ball to keep deceleration to a minimum. It's feel not reality.

> > >

> > > Steve

> >

> >

> > this is what we've been told. amateurs waste their speed before the ball..whiles good players have more speed after the ball. like hearing the whoosh after impact....this new evidence is going to create a whole lot of over the toppers. ,,more than before because they won't shift their weight properly first. first.

> >

>

> Nobody has more speed after hitting the ball

 

Nesbit would seem to disagree. In a 2005 study, he found that a 5, 13, and 18 handicap all reached max CHS after impact, while a scratch golfer reached max just before impact.

[mudge]

> @Stuart_G said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > Obviously, most people posting here didn't see the video you are referring too. Peter Kostis narrated and showed how Koepka's max swing speed was with the club a good 1.5' or so behind the ball; there was a loss of 6 mph between max speed and impact speed. This totally makes sense from a club fitting standpoint because dynamic loft is generated at impact when the shaft bends forward at impact; the shaft loads and bends back, **the max bend point being at the point of max speed**, then as the club enters the hitting area and starts to slow down the shaft releases and the club head passes the centerline of the shaft and loft is added at impact.

>

> Just a nit-pick here - max bend or max loading of the shaft would occur when the max torque (max acceleration) is applied by the hands. That's generally going to be before max rotational velocity/speed. And the unloading of the shaft (after time of max load) itself will generally add some club head velocity as well.

>

 

I have not seen this relationship (max torque/acceleration vs max shaft deflection) in any graphs I've looked at.

 

 

[iteachgolf]

> @mudge said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @Man_O_War said:

> > > > @juststeve said:

> > > > I once believed that one should accelerate the club through impact reaching maximum speed after the ball is struck. Having been show data that indicates that all golfers actually decelerate prior to impact I now believe one should imagine accelerating through the ball to keep deceleration to a minimum. It's feel not reality.

> > > >

> > > > Steve

> > >

> > >

> > > this is what we've been told. amateurs waste their speed before the ball..whiles good players have more speed after the ball. like hearing the whoosh after impact....this new evidence is going to create a whole lot of over the toppers. ,,more than before because they won't shift their weight properly first. first.

> > >

> >

> > Nobody has more speed after hitting the ball

>

> Nesbit would seem to disagree. In a 2005 study, he found that a 5, 13, and 18 handicap all reached max CHS after impact, while a scratch golfer reached max just before impact.

 

Would love to see the data on that

[Soloman1]

> @mudge said:

> Nesbit would seem to disagree. In a 2005 study, he found that a 5, 13, and 18 handicap all reached max CHS after impact, while a scratch golfer reached max just before impact.

 

You must have misread, misinterpreted or misunderstood the information. The clubhead decelerates upon colliding with the ball.

 

[oikos1]

It would appear the proposition of post impact acceleration is never going away.

[Stuart_G]

> @mudge said:

> I have not seen this relationship (max torque/acceleration vs max shaft deflection) in any graphs I've looked at.

>

The relationship is a basic fundamental of elasticity - deflection (strain) is always a function of the force being applied (stress).

 

 

[Golfnutgalen]

I don't remember where the video came from, but Rory said a few years back he had his swing checked and the same thing happened, he was swinging fastest before impact. Supposedly he has fixed that which is one of the main reasons he keeps leading driving distance stats all of a sudden. That's also about the timeframe when he started to really struggle with his wedges, but he seems to have sorted most of that out by now.

[mudge]

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @mudge said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @Man_O_War said:

> > > > > @juststeve said:

> > > > > I once believed that one should accelerate the club through impact reaching maximum speed after the ball is struck. Having been show data that indicates that all golfers actually decelerate prior to impact I now believe one should imagine accelerating through the ball to keep deceleration to a minimum. It's feel not reality.

> > > > >

> > > > > Steve

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > this is what we've been told. amateurs waste their speed before the ball..whiles good players have more speed after the ball. like hearing the whoosh after impact....this new evidence is going to create a whole lot of over the toppers. ,,more than before because they won't shift their weight properly first. first.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nobody has more speed after hitting the ball

> >

> > Nesbit would seem to disagree. In a 2005 study, he found that a 5, 13, and 18 handicap all reached max CHS after impact, while a scratch golfer reached max just before impact.

>

> Would love to see the data on that

 

I'll see if I can get a screenshot of the wrist/CHS measurements.

[mudge]

> @Soloman1 said:

> > @mudge said:

> > Nesbit would seem to disagree. In a 2005 study, he found that a 5, 13, and 18 handicap all reached max CHS after impact, while a scratch golfer reached max just before impact.

>

> You must have misread, misinterpreted or misunderstood the information. The clubhead decelerates upon colliding with the ball.

>

 

Ummm, nope. I majored in math and took three physics classes in college, so I'm handy with graphs.

 

For the graph I'm referencing, the X axis (time in seconds) goes from -0.3s to 0.1s , with 0.0s being impact. Three of the four CHS plots reach their maximums for t > 0. And of course, for the plot for the corresponding CH acceleration, those three peak after t >0.

[mudge]

> @Stuart_G said:

> > @mudge said:

> > I have not seen this relationship (max torque/acceleration vs max shaft deflection) in any graphs I've looked at.

> >

> The relationship is a basic fundamental of elasticity - deflection (strain) is always a function of the force being applied (stress).

>

>

 

That may be so, but no two golfers are going to apply force the same. Thats why there is no strong relationship when measured in a golf swing, other than the deflection curve slightly trails the torque curve.

[Stuart_G]

> @mudge said:

> That may be so, but no two golfers are going to apply force the same. Thats why there is no strong relationship when measured in a golf swing, other than the deflection curve slightly trails the torque curve.

 

Doesn't matter if they apply the force the same or not. That's just an issue of variations in how fast the build up to the max occurs and where the peaks occur in the swing, or how fast it trails off. Plot the defection or applied forces and the shape of the resulting graph can change - but it doesn't change the fundamental relationship. Well, the centripetal effects might mess with it a little bit at the higher speeds - but that's going to be (relatively speaking) long after the max forces are applied and the max deflection is reached.

[grant2145]

Flightscope is able to capture the speed profile of the swing which shows the speed of the club before and after impact.

[Golfrnut]

> @grant2145 said:

> Flightscope is able to capture the speed profile of the swing which shows the speed of the club before and after impact.

For sure...and if I knew how to retrieve the old pictures since they revamped the forums, I have sceenshots I could post. Since the site wants to be difficult...no go at the moment.