2019 Northern Trust @ Liberty National, NJ

[flushem]

The Northern Trust updated

 

Patrick Reed 2/1

Jon Rahm 4/1

Abraham Ancer 7/1

Justin Rose 10/1

Brandt Snedeker 10/1

Rory McIlroy 12/1

Danny Willett 20/1

Louis Oosthuizen 20/1

Dustin Johnson 25/1

Harold Varner III 40/1

Webb Simpson 100/1

Troy Merritt 100/1

Jordan Spieth 150/1

[OldTomMorris]

> @flushem said:

> The Northern Trust updated

> Jon Rahm 4/1

 

That seems like very good value to me.

 

[aabcuue]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Oliver Klozoff" said:

> > > > Question and I have no idea as I’ve never played either ... liberty national is considered a poor course design by the pros

 

based on previous voting. Could they play this at Bayonne? Same views I believe. I assume the owner of LN (freeman?) buys the event??? But Bayonne is considered a better course, right?

> > > I’ve played LN but not Bayonne. LN is underrated. It’s not among the best courses in the world but it is very very good. The course challenges and variety are terrific and fairly designed. It has a mixed aesthetic- some holes are the finely manicured type playing along clearly fake ponds, others are more dunesy and natural looking. The greens and green sites are mainly decently challenging. I think some of the greens and some holes were a bit over the top when it first opened and players complained. They have been redone since then. Supposedly after the Presidents Cup in 2017 the players gave better feedback on the course.

> > > From what I’ve read about Bayonne, it is great but much too small (overall property), narrow, and short to hold a PGA tournament.

> > I've not played but thatd be my question: why some holes look modern / fazio-stuff, and others more natural linksland. The latter on that course look better imo and it would have been better if the whole course just looked that way. Throw in some odd rectangular shaped and crowned greens, and now we're taking. Some of the criticisms about the OB being too tight are unfair ...for example carnoustie and other BO courses have tight OB holes, some even interior OB, to accommodate train tracks and other structures etc.

> Is this the one on reclaimed land from a garbage dump? If so, the fact it looks fake or manufactured or contrived is 100% the fault of whatever big name genius they hired to shape the golf course. With the budget they had to work with, the place was practically a blank canvas.

 

Liberty is the former Standard Oil Field and brownfield dating back to 1800s. Land was dug 10ft deep to remediate then 6mil tons of land was brought in to create elevation, artifical mounding and 6k trees. Nothing is classic, it is definitely modern w/ mostly all glass $80mil clubhouse, watersheet/fall front entrance next to circle around fountain and 28mi of Belgium blocks as cart paths. $300mil was used in mind to host a current PGA major/ event and build a brand. Billionaire Fireman is former Reebok, CCM (hockey), Boston whaler (boats) Ralph Lauren footwear and Fireman financing (multiple brands). There is lots of hidden infrastructure and extra land for course equipment and setup. However, as in every tournament the surrounding sites still are used to support tournament needs. An Army logistics is TV base and Liberty State Park is parking for many groups.

 

There is no question many of the holes were too narrow. LNGC was universally hated and even the pc answers "off the record" were telling with many repeated negative quotes.

After working all 4 events 2009, 2013, 2017 & 2019 there have been dramatic changes each time. Now some players don't mind LNGC. Length hasn't changed much and is now viewed as shortish and more regular season length vs. major length. There is minimal areas for most holes to lengthen.

Landing areas have been widened up to 50% on some holes. Shot lies aren't as awkward and are more often flatish. Unfortunate the driveable par4 isn't as there is a creek on the left side and green is pretty smallish.

Greens are tricky but not blind. Many greens have cuts changing slope, bumps/ lumps, and/or different levels.

Wind still blows but in the morning is usually calm to windless. Course is then getable especially in thursdays soft conditions. The scores have been much lower each time the tour returns.

Liberty isn't done building. Several plans have been made to change some holes to get more waterfront views but so far haven't been approved by city/state. Course abuts Liberty State Park, 2 ferry terminals, small marina/ public boat launch, Jersey City sewarage, US Army Corp of Engineers and the Port Liberte' development.

 

Both courses are close to Lady Liberty but have slightly different views. Bayonne is the neighbor to the south. It is a former landfill that was capped and has many methane release vents. Elevation already existed and lent itself to more links course. It isn't as modern looking. Yes plenty of $ was spent here also in $100mil. However much of it was part of the moderization to make the Newark Port more accessible for the new bigger SuperMax container ships created after the Panama Canal widening. Changes included raising Bayonne bridge and deepening the channel. That dig went on top of the landfill to 10 stories high. This was all done to make Port Newark more competitive with other east coast ports especial Baltimore, Norfolk and Carolinas.

Dredge crated huge faux sand dunes and deep bunkers. Course was built in mind of proximity to manhattan and Wall St. money not for a PGA tournament.

Bayonne is still a strong course but opened as a par70 @6900yds. It has since been lengthened to par71 7175yds. It is still short by tour standards.

 

GD does rank Bayonne 50 courses better than Liberty #142 vs. 192 "course is an ode to Irish links, with no trees, cart paths or level lies. Fairways flow down narrow valleys, edged by steep slopes laden with tall, wavy fescues. Bunkers are deep and often fearsome. A few greens sit right above the harbor and all putting surfaces have confounding humps, bumps and rolls..." Fwiw, course is walking only.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bayonne-golf-club/amp

and

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/26/nyregion/the-view-s-great-but-the-course-is-a-real-dump.html

[aabcuue]

> @straightshot7 said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > Rory got a 2 stroke penalty for that? Harsh.

> > > > > What if you have your caddie move the stones? Same rules apply?

> > > >

> > > > its the rule. If theres doubt you dont touch it.I dont agree with it being 2 shots nor do i agree with it being rescinded after the round. Faldo was wrong about there not being any advantage gained. He admitted to removing a tuft of sand directly behind the ball he thought was a pebble.By definition it improved his lie. I take him at his word that he thought it was a pebble but thems the breaks. Should be 1 shot and try to recreate the lie to make it fair to his competitors/field.

> > >

> > > No he didn't admit to removing anything. He said he touched it and then let go when he realized it wasn't a rock.

> > >

> > > He even pointed it out to the official as if it was still there.

> >

> > He did though, it disintegrated in his finger hence not there anymore.He was making the best case for himself not being penalized which i understand...

> > Go rub your finger behind your ball in a bunker and remove/brush a little sand.it improves your lie. its not debatable. they rescinded because of "intent"

>

> I don't want to get into a long argument with you so we can just disagree. Was there proof that the sand disintegrated? Rory made it sound like he left the object behind. If you have proof otherwise feel free to post it.

Slugger, head official reviewed the video and was mostly fine with it. It came down to asking him do you feel you improved your lie. Rory said no and officials closed the issue. Per new rules you are allowed to remove the pebble/ stone w/o penalty.

 

[JD3]

I think there's no real driving range at Bayonne, nor sure how pros would deal with that

[OldTomMorris]

> @JD3 said:

> I think there's no real driving range at Bayonne, nor sure how pros would deal with that

 

There wasn't an on-site range at Merion during the US Open and they found a solution that involved a 20-minute shuttle service to the first tee. That might be one of the reasons they don't go back there as the players supposedly had list of complaints which included the range.

[jmck]

> @JD3 said:

> I think there's no real driving range at Bayonne, nor sure how pros would deal with that

 

The piece of land Bayonne is on is much smaller than Liberty's. Maybe 2/3 the size? So besides from not having a full range there's also nowhere to put all the hospitality tents. Onsite parking is a fraction of Liberty's, and there isn't a neighboring state park for overflow like at Liberty. And the dunes between holes at Bayonne are much steeper than at Liberty--spectators would struggle with them, even if you could figure out how to get 10s of thousands of them onto the property. Liberty was definitely built for hosting modern tournament golf, and Bayonne for sure wasn't.

[KRAMER1997]

Hopefully, Reed shoots 80 today.

[JD3]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > I think there's no real driving range at Bayonne, nor sure how pros would deal with that

>

> There wasn't an on-site range at Merion during the US Open and they found a solution that involved a 20-minute shuttle service to the first tee. That might be one of the reasons they don't go back there as the players supposedly had list of complaints which included the range.

 

That 20 minutes from range to first tee would be a drag for pros. Wonder how close they can find suitable range near Bayonne? When I look on Google maps theres a huge shopping mall complex than can be used for parking, and like most things shuttle bus service from there to different points on the course.

Bayonne Golf Club

1 Lefante Way, Bayonne, NJ 07002

(201) 823-4800

https://maps.app.goo.gl/8ZtkJnpCgLKNg7se7

 

Lastly the hills would enhance spectator viewing like stadium golf, and large walk areas between holes would be natural for concession areas. To me sounds like if they wanted to they could pull it off there.

 

[SilvioDante]

Koepka wants to be back in business this weekend. First six holes through and -5. Funny to see where he will finally end tonight.

[doublepar93]

Spieth with the early misfire.

[Birdie Mac]

> @MitchellGolfing said:

> Spieth with the early misfire.

Fore left!

 

[doublepar93]

> @"Birdie Mac" said:

> > @MitchellGolfing said:

> > Spieth with the early misfire.

> Fore left!

>

A+Recovery though.

 

[Mr. Grumpy]

No doubt,, heck of a recovery shot... Meanwhile Brooks is falling apart..

[Mr. Grumpy]

LOL,,, Jordan birdies from that position!

[JD3]

Turned it on just after Jordan mumbled something announcers were apologizing for. What did he say?

[Mr. Grumpy]

S**t ,,,

[Mr. Grumpy]

And he birdies the second.. Jordan is on a small roll. Putter is doing the work...

[CCTxGolf]

Hope Jordan makes a run and is able to get back some mojo. He is always fun to watch when in good form.

[tiderider]

> @CCTxGolf said:

> Hope Jordan makes a run and is able to get back some mojo. He is always fun to watch when in good form.

 

and there you have it ... frustrating to watch ... can't imagine what it's like for him ...

[lowheel]

DJ has dropped 7 shots in the last 24 holes...

[jmck]

And Koepka's in for 35-35-70 the weird way.

[JD3]

Rorys putt? It's that kind of extremely sloppy Stuff keeps him from playing to his potential

[idrive]

> @lowheel said:

> DJ has dropped 7 shots in the last 24 holes...

 

I just don't get it......

[idrive]

Well with DJ out of it, looking at the leader board right now I would love to see HVIII take the win.

[bscinstnct]

> @bscinstnct said:

> Harold Varner. You always forget him and then

>

> There he is.

>

> Guy is 185 owgr but has made about 1MM this year and 5MM since 2012.

 

 

Go HV lll !!!

 

Win this, then 15 MM

 

Go to Vegas and rent the whole hotel pool and invite 100 Ladies for free champagne.

 

Nuff said ; )

 

Oh, dang, jinxed him. Sorry Harold....

 

 

[idrive]

 

> @bscinstnct said:

> Harold Varner. You always forget him and then

> There he is.

> Go HV lll !!!

>

> **Oh, dang, jinxed him**. Sorry Harold....

>

>

 

Was just thinking the same thing... and I know better!

[jmck]

> @JD3 said:

> Rorys putt? It's that kind of extremely sloppy Stuff keeps him from playing to his potential

 

He's good for like 2-10 of those per tournament.

 

Now he's on to phase two: staring at his yardage book, totally baffled.

[idrive]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @flushem said:

> > The Northern Trust updated

> > Jon Rahm 4/1

>

> That seems like very good value to me.

>

 

Even a better value ATM.

[bscinstnct]

> @idrive said:

>

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > Harold Varner. You always forget him and then

> > There he is.

> > Go HV lll !!!

> >

> > **Oh, dang, jinxed him**. Sorry Harold....

> >

> >

>

> Was just thinking the same thing... and I know better!

 

Oh man, idrive, I really jinxed him. Smh.