Reeds scrape away

[wobgon]

I know I am beating a dead horse here, but does anyone have any video of him going thru the same practice swing routine on other shots that he does in the waste bunker...….Putting the club behind the ball and taking backswing from there?

[b.helts]

I have no idea what you’re talking about. I haven’t had but a couple of private messages that aren’t related to purchases. None that relate to you. So I would say, yet again, this is something you made up.

 

To keep things on topic, I doubt that Reed was intentionally cheating. I do think he probably has, like our friend, blade hunter, a loose relationship with the truth.

[bladehunter]

lol. Wow. Now I’m a liar. Stay classy B.

[Holy Moses]

Just a bad camera angle most likely ?. How many times and occasions must a person “unintentionally” move sand like that before it’s intentional? By my count, Reed’s defenders have to say at least three.

[Holy Moses]

He did the same thing in 2015

[KevCarter]

I actually think you got it right here. In my opinion he improved his lie, he knew he was improving his lie, but didn't realize in the heat of the moment he was breaking a rule. It's easy to space out when under the gun. Benefit of the doubt is reasonable here...

[Londoner]

You think hes gone all through his career to this point not knowing he can't improve his lie?

Sorry but were in the realms of fantasy now.

[KevCarter]

Sorry, just an opinion, and I'm comfortable with it...

[Hawkeye77]

Strangely after a couple of weeks and endless round and round, I agree. I think he intended to improve his lie (sorry those that disagree on the video, but that just couldn't be any more clear) but I've come to stop short of my original belief he was intentionally cheating.

 

Now that may smack of Costanza - "it's not a lie if you believe it" (no pun intended) and maybe that's what it is. No excuse for what he did or not knowing he shouldn't be doing it. I better stop typing because I'm pretty much typing that he was cheating, lol.

 

Now, after the fact the same old bunker mentality and terrible responses and PR (if you can call it that) and his behavior at the PC was stupid.

 

Oh well.

[KevCarter]

LOL, we're on the same page. A week ago my opinion was different. Maybe we're getting softer as we age... ?

[wobgon]

What I am trying to find out, and I have been watching old footage and can't find evidence of it, is does he put the club behind the ball and take those little practice swing when there is not sand behind his ball to get rid of....He may, I just can't find footage of him doing it.

[Londoner]

What does it matter? We could all develop a backswing that sweeps anything out of the way.

[wobgon]

What would matter is, if he only doe's it when there is sand behind his ball the question would be WHY doe's he only do it when there is sand behind his ball...…..My guess would be to improve his lie.

[Londoner]

I agree, but if he always does it? That does not make it ok in my book.

[wobgon]

Agree.....I would just like to know if he doe's or he doesn't...…..Footage I have been looking at suggests not, but someone might know different.

[bladehunter]

Thank you Kev.

 

Im not arguing anything but that in this instance. It’s not enough for me to condemn him.

[Sean2]

It seems the court of public opinion is all that is necessary to "prove" guilt.

[Londoner]

.Another that thinks he didn't know he could not improve his lie?

You surprise me.

[Sean2]

I never said that.

[Golfingfanatic]

Well, then why didn't he say that in the interview? Instead he goes on about how it was just the angle and that he didn't really think he deserved the penalty.

He could've just said: " I see it now, didn't realize it in the heat of the moment. I am sorry, it won't happen again."

[bladehunter]

Here’s an example of what I’m talking about. It’s bubba. I’ve not found one of reed yet. But finding his Preshot for a deep rough flop has proved impossible.

 

[bladehunter]

@wobgon here you go. Grainy , but clear enough. It’s part of his preshot for any tough lie. If it’s cheating he isn’t alone.

https://youtu.be/AbMHy4Jh1Ek

[lowheel]

I can remember a bunch of players who used to do this.Davis love, steve pate, couples. Couples used to do what bubba did in the previous video you posted all the time. Seve used to take a 5 wood and put it behind the ball in the rough and then say nah ill hit an iron and lots of players were rubbed the wrong way because he was flattening longer grass. Heck Gary player was called out by tom watson for flattening a root he claimed was a leaf. Rory earlier this year pinched sand behind a ball in the bunker claiming it was a pebble and clearly improved his lie yet officials rescinded his 2 shot penalty because of "intent". Ive never in my thousands of rounds of golf ever confused a pebble for sand yet rory gets the benefit of the doubt...

In the end if we apply that standard to reed then proving intent is impossible. He was penalized and its over. it was at a mickey mouse event wither way. Tiger at this event last year had a questionable at best "stroke" from the sand yet there was a exhaustive effort to defend him at all costs. lets have some perspective. Reed is a top 15 bunker player statistically on tour and has been for like the last 6-7 years. When youre in a waste bunker especially in the Caribbean courses the sand in the bunkers and the sand in the waste areas arent the same always,its lighter and grainier (like beach sand) and youre often in footprint like holes. you can ground your club in that stuff so its possible he didnt feel it or zoned out as he was focusing on the shot required at hand. He rehearsed it multiple times as can be seen on videos trying to get a steeper plane.. never once stopping or hesitating which basically says to me (in my opinion) that he didnt feel anything. He then went 8-10 feet to the left and rehearsed hitting the actual sand to feel what resistance he can expect as he was going to get steep with it. it wasnt even that hard of a shot so impossible to believe any significant advantage was gained.At best he would hit it to 15 feet but most likely 30+ feet. The rules are what they are and he was dinged.Im okay with the penalty if it was evenly applied but it isnt. if it wasnt him the thread is not even created. Bones was following him and didnt notice anything and neither did the broadcasters. I think he deserves the benfit of the doubt because what isee/saw was a laser focused player rehearsing a bunker shot like 10-12 times visualizing how he thinks/wants the ball to come out. its his right to not be happy about the penalty as he feels that he didnt gain any advantage. Is he wrong for thinking that? sure, possibly but i understand the rationale of his grievance

 

Food for thought...

 

[lchang]

Kev, coming from you, this take deserves respect, so help me to understand. You wrote, "In my opinion he improved his lie, he knew he was improving his lie, but didn't realize in the heat of the moment he was breaking a rule." So, outside of the heat of competition, he intellectually understands that improving his lie is against the rules. But under the gun, that rule slipped his mind? I'm having trouble with that. It especially doesn't jibe with his post-round comments.

[Golfjack]

He improved his lie in a waste bunker, it was a significant amount of sand easily visible. He stuck his club right behind the ball and moved sand away. It's pretty clear to me that was his intent and exactly what he did. He as a seasoned pro knows that sand isn't a loose impediment that he can just move away. Putting down a club to test how the club can be addressed is some kind of grey area that should be outlawed. By scraping sand away (if it was really an honest mistake he would have just done it once, and asked a rules official to come over). As a pro I would be very cognizant of this, since for him as a name player he has a ton of cameras on him and this stuff gets caught pretty easily.

You can put your club down to address the ball, so I would say his best argument is he was just addressing the ball. Though the shoveling negates his point.

Also don't think it's reasonable to assume a pro does not know he can't improve his lie. It's not complicated nor an obscure rule. At least Reed knew it was a waste bunker. Some viewers were probably confused by him even hitting the same for practice. In fact I learned something new about waste bunkers after doing some research.

[Londoner]

You quoted it then infered there was no evidence. Which there clearly is.

I don't think anybody makes these accusations lightly.

[KevCarter]

Thank you for the way you worded your question. My text was poorly written, of course he knows he can't improve his lie, however... He knew he was in a waste bunker rather than a bunker. He knew he could ground his club. He knew he could make practice swings He was taking advantage of that fact, and spaced out on the consequences of his actions. The 2 stroke penalty was warranted and applied, but I don't believe he was trying to cheat. The more I type, the bigger hole I'm digging myself. Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to convey. I just think he was.a bonehead, not a cheater... ?

[lchang]

I get it. I think you’re being too charitable, especially given his post round comments, but I get your explanation. Cheers!

[bladehunter]

Yes ^. I think this type thing is very common . At least in grass.

 

And another thought came to me. ( I know right ) I keep reading peoples saying “ hes a seasoned pro. Of course he knew “. The rules don’t differentiate between pro and amateur. So his experience level has no bearing on whether or not he broke a rule , or is guilty of breaking a rule on purpose. There are guys in the rules forum ( kevcarter is one ) that I dare say are twice as knowledge than the average pga tour pro on the rules. They are the true rules professionals. People assign some godlike ability to tour pros. In fact they test to be human just like anybody. Certainly capable of a brain spasm , or to get defensive and speak in circles when confronted with an on the spot issue.

The burden of proof for being DQ Ed for cheating is extremely high. As it should be. We’ve now shown that his and other player pre shot routine for difficult lies include grounding their clubs multiple times for practice swings behind the ball. Which in my opinion swings this even more toward habit , vs conscious cheating.

now we can debate the habit being legal or not. And I may agree that it looks illegal. But that’s a culture change that golf as a whole would have to make. As I’ve seen more players than I can count ground their club behind the ball and take a swing back in tall rough . Thus pushing down the grass for a better lie.

[KevCarter]

Thank you Brother. Cheers to you as well!