Reeds scrape away

[ALIF]

I guess what I’m saying Blade is that Patrick Reed has been playing elite level tournament golf for many, many years. To even think that he was not acutely aware of his surroundings and what he was doing in my opinion is very naïve. Is it possible? Sure. It’s also possible for me to get hit by lightning on a sunny day but not the least bit probable. So in other words, what you’re saying maybe totally true and Patrick Reed might have made an innocent mistake. I just think the probability of that is just about zero. Again we all have our opinions and they all may be wrong.

[xxio]

If we have to truly know then 90% of criminals that actually are guilty would go free. That is why it is called reasonable doubt, taking in all circumstances past and present.

Then we form our own opinions.

Mine happens to be Reed is just too good a player not to know what he was doing would improve his lie. He did it before so he knows what would happen to his lie.

 

I think it is reasonable enough to believe that.

[bladehunter]

I sure hope that 90% of people in jail aren’t there on circumstantial evidence and past unproven accusations.

 

Im pretty sure it still supposed to take some actual , factual evidence. Right ? Lol.

 

Keep in mind we’re talking proving cheating. Not a penalty. Plenty of proof of need for a penalty. Really none of cheating.

[xxio]

The emphasis is on reasonable. You judge it based on circumstance, meaning Reed's abilities and background. He is an expert in golf situations.

There is a higher degree of responsibility and expectation because their expertise.

Same for professional race car drivers in car accidents.

Martial arts experts in fights.

If your level of reasonable is absolute, then again all a criminal has to say is I didn't mean to or I didn't do it.

 

There is factual footage of Reed doing something, he did it twice. You want to keep saying he didn't think it would change his lie. Seve would've loved playing with you. He probably would have won 4 more majors.

[ea19]

To me Reed having a different pre-shot routine for this shot is telling. Him looking down while doing it means it was intentional. He had to have seen and felt the sand move. If he was looking at the target, I could buy him not seeing the sand move. Although I would still not believe he did not feel it. But he was looking down, he had to have seen it.

So either he did not know the rule or he was cheating. And he has not claimed ignorance on the rule.

[straightshot7]

Yeah he's actually digging himself a hole with those comments.

May as well have just taken a high powered leaf blower to that lie. Is that legal?

[shotmark]

I've just come into this thread today and have had a quick glance through so apologies if these observations have been made already.

You are in a waste area not a bunker and are therefore allowed to ground your club. How then is it possible to take the club away without displacing some sand? Had this been a more popular player rather than Reed I would venture that this would have been a very different topic.

[jmck]

Take a look on a desktop. There’s nothing wrong with the pictures. It’s the janky new board that’s making pics look distorted on mobile.

And the “down the line” excuse holds no water. You can clearly judge distance and perspective based on his stance relative to the ball, the wedge relative to the ball, and the other footprints around the ball.

[bladehunter]

Nope. Plenty of people on tape committing crimes. Or seen by eye witnesses. That’s guilty. Easy peasy. What you’re trying to do is prove premeditated murder. You can prove murder with tape. That same tape may not prove any premeditated ideas, I’d say in most cases it does not. You have to find evidence of a plan to commit murder.

 

you have no argument here with convicting reed of the crime. I’ve said 7 times now that the penalty is just. Close. But just. What you have no proof of is the premeditation that you want to tack on.

[Titleist 670]

This, and also you can tell where he is relative to the ball based on the shurbbery near him and his stance. You can clearly see he doesn't move from his practice swing to his actual swing.

It's hilarious to me that people think a professional golfer who spends that much time inspecting his lie would also have no idea if he moved sand or if the lie changed at all.

[bladehunter]

It’s not a different preshot routine. See the video I posted a couple pages back. Shows him doing same thing with a flop shot in deep rough. Also posted video of other pga players doing Same preshot. And I said the debate should be on whether or not all these players are cheats , or simply don’t understand what improving your lie entails.

 

You could flip me to Calling that move cheating if you get every player who does it. It’s the singling out of the one heel you don’t like and trying to get him , while leaving the others alone that I can’t go for. In short. The hypocrisy . If this is anyone else we never even hear about it.

[jmck]

Yeah, exactly. THAT'S why it's premeditated, ie., intentional, ie, cheating, rather than accidental (eg, that Rory situation above which is truly apples to oranges) or a so called brain fart. Dude spends a full minute before the shot, looking at his lie, bemoaning how terrible it is. Dude takes two practice swings moving a bunch of dirt immediately behind his ball. Violà! The lie is better! There is ZERO chance Reed doesn't know full well what he's doing there.

I have no idea why people on here keep inventing a huge amount of space between Reed's little ditch digging operation and the ball--again, space which is CLEARLY not there--in an effort to give Reed the benefit of the doubt. I've been around the game for a looooong time. I really can't think of any clearer example of a pro getting caught cheating on camera, and I find it positively bizarre that people refuse to accept it at face value.

[jmck]

I am all for golf having heels. I think it's fantastically good for "growing the game" and such (anything that gets us mentioned with more frequency on Sportscenter, lol). BUT. You're not posting comparable videos. Find a video of a pro in a waste bunker clearly moving a bunch of sand by taking practice swings directly behind his ball, then we can talk. What Reed did is NOT widespread.

[bladehunter]

I posted videos as well did others of pros improving their lies That is very comparable . It makes no difference what type of turf they are standing on when they improve it.

[wobgon]

We could shrink this thread to one page...….Everyone is saying the same things over and over including me for a while........Yea, I know........This is a golf forum and so on and so on.

[Londoner]

So if he moved a putt and marked it a foot nearer the hole you would say it's not cheating because he may not have known he couldn't do it? Because we can't prove ( or reasonably assume) that he knew?.

[jmck]

If you could find video of someone digging a trench directly behind their ball in a waste bunker I'm sure you'd post it. Somehow though, it's only Reed who's on video doing that--what?--three times now?

You brought up Seve earlier and his little dance in the rough: is it a five wood is it a three iron is it a five wood is it a three iron. There's some plausible deniability there--maybe he's genuinely unsure of what club to hit. Probably not, but it is possible. Reed on the other hand....well he might've just dispensed with the wedge and used his foot a la pepperturbo in the fairway. Zero plausible deniability. Just wildly implausible nonsense about camera angles and brain farts.

[Londoner]

I totally agree. Bizarre is a great description of it.

[jmck]

You gotta admit though....it's the perfect off-season topic ; )

What was it last year? Koepka in a thong? This one is sooooooooo much better!

[bladehunter]

Preface this by saying. We don’t disagree often. I respect your opinion and posts.

 

But. Lol.

you've just described perfectly the hypocrisy of this game. Again not your personal hypocrisy. But this game. That’s why I can’t in good conscious call any one a cheater. I even have issue with it with my own local cheaters. Because soo many get Away with sooo much for other political reasons. One rule needs intent to be enforced. The next rule doesn’t care about intent. One rule says don’t improve your lie the next allows it even in a hazard as long as it’s not sand. Lol.

and you’ll have people who like one rule or player defend one small stance and yet condemn another on a similarly small thing.

i see zero difference from the Seve analogy to Reed. Both may or may not have knew what they were doing. You can’t give Seve a pass based on “ club indecisiveness “. You’re not supposed to flatten the grass behind no matter which club you use. Doing it 5 times with 5 different clubs doesn’t erase the rule. Same same in my eyes. And I’m not prepared to call either a cheat.

[jmck]

Oh, there's a massive amount of grey area and judgement calls built into the rules, no doubt. I agree there, though I'm not sure I'd call it hypocrisy. Maybe inconsistency instead? Both in how they're technically written, and how they're enforced in practice. Kind of the nature of the game I guess.

Check out the first set of written rules, all 13 of them, from Edinburgh in 1744. With the exception of having to tee up for the next hole within one club length of the last hole you finished, the other 12 of them could still serviceably govern 99% of all amateur play. You'd have to make judgement calls when interpreting them and trust people to do the right thing and so on and so forth, but that's not so different from right now, and there isn't anything all that particularly complicated to them. The problem seems to be with expanding the rules to cover every situation 100% at the pro level. That's where you get into slippery slopes and maybe a little hypocrisy. Phil in Mexico getting a free drop out of a totally unplayable lie in a the middle of a bush because there was a sprinkler in the general vicinity of his foot not once but twice is the first example that pops into my mind.

Anyway, that Reed video just seems so blatantly obvious to me I don't see any grey areas or slippery slopes. I wouldn't put up with that garbage with a $5 nassau on the line. The Seve in the rough stuff might get a raised eyebrow out of me, but it's not something I'd never make a stink about. So yeah, just kind of applying the rules in a way that feels "right" to me personally, lol. You've got a point there for sure.

[bladehunter]

Thank you. I see your view too. I do. But it just tastes wrong to say cheat in the pro game where they rely mostly on self policing. If he cheated ( as in did that on purpose ) it will get him all on its own. No need for us to chase it for a conviction.

Kind of like honor amongst thieves in a way. They all bend the rules as far as they can. Play dumb when it works and claim all knowing knowledge when needed.

[straightshot7]

It's very simple: you don't ground your club head directly behind the ball before the actual shot and you are careful not to swipe a bunch of sand away.

You don't have to ground your club behind the ball until the actual shot. But if you choose to, you can pick it up vertically instead of moving it horizontally behind the ball and sweeping sand away.

Did you even see the video?

Reed didn't move the sand during his actual shot. He moved a bunch of sand while analyzing the lie, long before it was time to actually hit the shot.

[vman]

Lie is one of THE most important aspects of a professionals shot. Lie dictates what he can and cannot achieve, he will think of it, firstly, in terms of strike. Reed will of made these calculations and assessed his route back to the ball, and, he will of realised as he swiped the sand away twice, that his path was now somewhat improved.

[bscinstnct]

Ya! Is like this time I was at this Mexican restaurant and they had these cool pottery pitchers of Sangria, and we were leaving but still had a full pitcher left...

 

So I just stood up, walked right through the dining room with it, out the door, and we got in a cab with it and left.

 

Jedi mind trick ; )

[ALIF]

Poor Pepper, never gonna live that admission down!!! Lol.

[straightshot7]

This should be Reed's pre-shot routine 2020:

Who's to say he's not just keeping the course clean? You can't really "know" what's in his head.

[Titleist 670]

It's true. How do we even know at the time Pat addressed the ball that he understood he was playing professional golf? He may have thought he was playing cricket. You just never know what's going on in someone's head.

[Schley]

Wait this thread is still going? Fatrick has some staying power!

[ALIF]

It’s winter, there’s snow on the ground, and we are all bored out of our minds! Lol. You can only talk about the new Taylormade drivers for so long before that gets old.