Reeds scrape away

[bladehunter]

Yea. I agree. I didn’t get it then or now. We’ve all seen him go toe to toe with today’s world #1 on the biggest stage golf has. And he beat him. And not by luck. Or back door. He beat him top to top. That’s certainly not top 50 talent.

[Shilgy]

Funny thing isn’t it? Kuch had just as many incidents in the past year or so as Reed. Maybe more. But everyone seems to love Kooooch but hate Reed. Kuchar moves sand...tries to claim it’s his pitch mark it’s embedded in....and pays his caddy with a few pesos. And yet folks seem to love his contrived image.

Reed? Not so much.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Exactly. It’s a strange double standard. I’m telling you most of it has to do with Reeds refusal to kiss the public’s butt. Kuchar will do it. He will come out with a brown nose and smile. And the public will applaud him.

 

which is why I call Reed authentic and Kuchar fake. People will usually buy fake before they will authenticity.

[Pepperturbo]

Kuch's boy like charms play to gallery's or as @bladehunter said butt kisser, 17 total wins since pro in 2000. Reed is real and plays to win and has 11 wins since pro in 2011. I'd bet P.Reed passes him and others.

[jjr]

I'm with Pepper!

[Forged4ever]

Bro, bringin Jones into this is just bullsh*t???

 

He was just a hair’s breath from bein 302able at any given time on a golf course and that’s what ultimately drove him outa competitive golf at an obscenely young age(28yo), however you are spot on as he was also obsessive compulsive regarding the rules and his adherence to them.

 

The only other Pro that I can remember who had the term “cheat” or “Cheater” attached to his name and actually had his name turned into an adverb, as in “He pulled a Player,” was indeed, Gary Player, first, with his blatant lie improvement in the 1974 British Open, and in the vid below following his initial practice stroke you can see the sand & dirt fly backwards off of his putter like debris blowin out of an exhaust pipe who’s engine has been started up for the first time in a decade(new battery, lol?). I remember a few of the older guys talking about it and Pete just said that that was the “home field advantage,” while even though Player wasn’t from the UK, the mindset even back then was “visitors: United States” and the “home team: everyone else” ??. I do remember Gary’s fan bois chirping that it wouldn’t have mattered if he was called for it, or God forbid, called it on himself, as he won by a handful of strokes, though that to me summed up both Player and his fan bois.

 

Then ya had his much ballyhooed leaf? “incident” in his 1983 Skins match with Jack, Tom & Mr. Palmer.

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/11/28/sports/the-golf-hole-nobody-will-forget.html

 

I will just leave ya with Tom’s famous quoted statement said to Player at the time of the incident and caught on mike along with my opinion based on asking him about a specific part of this statement:

 

”I’m accusing you, Gary . . . you can't do that . . . I’M TIRED OF THIS . . . I wasn't watching you, but I saw it.''

 

Just over two decades later while sitting with Tom at dinner up at the club, I asked him about the capitalized part of his statement above, because to me, that stood out and I never ever forgot that, though I couldn’t remember the rest of that statement, “what exactly were you tired of,” as though this incident was not a one off and instead a pattern of play for Player.

 

Not getting into his specific reply, I will say only that these were not two “one off” incidents(if that ain’t an Oxymoron, lol?) and Gary was thought to be foot loose and fancy free with the rules, the rules as they applied to Gary(There’s that d@mn narcissist sh*t again???), and the line that was the black/white of the rules and the line that applied to ALL of the other Players.

 

For Gary, at least according to 3 former Players who were his peers who competed against him that I spoke to about it, 2 of them being HoFers, and no, Sam ain’t one of em, though the one who is would blow your minds, lololol, they were adamant, no ifs ands or buts about it....

 

Player was s Cheat!!!

 

However, another thing that I will never ever forget is that on his next two trips around the links at Oakmont, when he would tee off, and this was not every hole, though I heard it at least a half dozen times where following his drive a guy from the gallery would yell out loudly “Cheat” or “Cheater” and his reaction was ALWAYS the same.

 

He would put that fake *ss plastic smile on his face, start the “Gary shuffle” up the fairway waving? that stupid *ss “beauty pageant” wave to both sides of the fairway, mouthing “thank you” and smiling the whole way???

 

With God as my witness, he did this EVERY TIME and you’d have thought that someone yelled “We Love Ya Gary”???

 

I even asked a good bud who was with me after he did this one time “WhyTF is he sayin ‘thank you’ after someone just called him a cheat,” and my bud said what I knew though had a hard time accepting, that Player in fact heard what he wanted to hear to produce that physical reaction, and that in all likelihood that was a lot closer to “We Love Ya Gary” than it was to being called a “Cheat” or “Cheater,” lolol

I’m being serious here when I say that his cheating aside, I would put Player’s Mental game, for a lot of reasons, right behind Jack’s, Tiger’s and Hogan’s as the GOATs of mental games.

 

Just as Jack never missed a 5’ putt or less on Sunday with either the lead or the tournament on the line(even though there was video of him doing just that, actually both, only one week before?), Gary never heard anything from the gallery cept “We Love Ya Gary?” ???

 

THAT’S IT!!!!

 

The next time that I see Patrick, which should be in August, I’m gonna suggest that instead of giving the “ssshhhh” gesture with his index finger over his lips or the “I can’t hear you” cupped hand to ear, that he instead give a smile like he just dropped the Cup winning putt along with a “beauty pageant” wave, while mouthing “Thank You” ???

 

I mean, if Player could overcome all of his incidents, and most of you, if you were being completely honest, don’t even know of most of em, if ya even knew of the two blatant ones and one “WTF” mentioned here, with the “WTF” incident being his “Pinnacle” non-rule infraction in the same Skins match mentioned above when Jack brought up the fact that Player substituted a Pinnacle for his usual Titleist ball brand on either a long par-4 or par-5, which is against the Tour rules, though Jack was informed that that rule was not in effect for this match as neither he, Tom or Mr. Palmer knew this fact, lolol

 

In bringing this up to Jack a few years ago when Madison and I were having lunch with he, Barbara and my Parents, his response was a chuckle and he stated simply that though it wasn’t a rule infraction that particular match, and he mentioned that neither Tom nor Mr. Palmer knew of this one time “exemption,” if you will, however from force of habit of Playing the same brand of ball for over two decades when this incident occurred, he would never ever have thought to pull out another brand of ball in a competitive/tourney round, much less know about the rule change for this specific match, and it just just struck him as “odd,” though he laughingly said “but that’s Gary.”

 

I never asked Tom about it cuz as though I’ve spent a good amount of time with him and we’ve discussed some very personal topics, I got the distinct feeling from our one exchange mentioned above and then a few other times that Player’s name came up that Tom does not care for the man, personally.

 

As far as the Skins incident mentioned above, whenever Player has been asked about it he always laughingly replies that it was just a “misunderstanding” and “Tom and I are good” or something along that line, however Tom believes to this day that that leaf? was a “loose impediment” and that Player knowingly, willingly and with malice and forethought cheated his *ss off???

 

? ?????

RP

Later Ed:02/25/20, 5:14EST-> Maddie just insisted that I include that while I had the discussion above with Jack, that he NEVER inferred or led any of those present, at least Madison or myself, to believe that Player was a cheat or cheater and Jack IS NOT one of the two HoFers that I spoke of above.

 

Ok Sweetie, there, is that ok??

 

WTF are you guys laughing at?????

 

I do indeed wear the pants in our relationship?

 

Stay well Gents?

RP

 

 

 

[Forged4ever]

Sorry, didn’t mean to post and don’t know how to delete, lol

 

Regards,

RP

[bscinstnct]

Richard! Great to see you posting, great stuff.

 

Although, I was would have hoped to have gotten patented, "GTFOH" from ya ; )

[Forged4ever]

Thanks much and back at ya?

 

Nah, “GTFOH” is reserved for weak *ss intellectually defunct comments, thoughts and/posts??

 

Your post was great though I hate when I’m using right side emotionally based thoughts and someone counters with left side, 1+1=2, rational logical thoughts, lmao??

 

Have a Great Season Brother?

Richard

[caniac6]

Just thought it was your shortest post, ever!

[Shilgy]

Same here! I was just thinking it is a good thing I’m retired now. I’ll have time to read Richard’s post in one sitting rather than having to save half for tomorrow.

 

Just kidding RP- good to see you on this board again....it’s been too long. I hope your health is treating you as well as Maddie does.

 

PS amazing that the R&A distributed that video without some creative editing.

[bu11dog]

Yeah, if nothing else, I'm glad this thread brought us more @Forged4ever posts!

[Roadking2003]

Yes, and that's what Seve did. Over and over again.

[MMB1500]

Was Seve caught improving his lie?

[Roadking2003]

Yes. He had a habit of hitting his tee shot then walking down the fairway with his driver in his hands. When he got to his ball, he would ground his driver behind the ball. Then select an iron to actually play the shot.

[MMB1500]

According to?

I'm not saying you're wrong. I've just never heard about this. I know about his well deserved reputation for gamesmanship, but this is a little different.

[Vindog]

Gary Player too. Called out finally by Tom Watson.

 

Even Brooks Koepka has admitted to "being guilty of it". That is a quote from one of his recent soundoffs, which make me scratch my head about his soundoffs.

[Roadking2003]

I can't find a source, but I think it came from Azinger years ago. Maybe somebody else has a source.

 

But I did find that Gary PLayer did the same thing;Eventually, the details came out… apparently one of Player’s favorite tricks when he missed a fairway was to pull out a fairway wood and take a stance behind the ball – tamping the grass down – and then “changing his mind” and deciding to hit an iron.https://thesandtrap.com/b/swing_thoughts/he_cheated

And then we have the video of Player at The Open moving sand from behind his ball..

[lowheel]

If i had a dollar for every time seve pulled out the 3 wood and then 5 wood and then hit a iron after tapping the grass id have a mortgage payment. everyone did it. Player, Floyd off the top of my head

[CasualLie]

I'm not much of a Gary Player fan as a person, but not to the point I think ill of him. I can't really relate to how he was brought up and what he went through in his youth to know how it shapes his way of thinking and some of his odd decisions. The few times I dealt with him I thought he was a knucklehead and talked way too much about things he did not know. But that doesn't matter. What matters is 9 majors, 24 PGA Tour wins, and 140 other professional wins. You don't do all that by cheating.

One of the many things changed in golf in the Tiger era is jealousy. Tiger money for all sure has changed the tone. No way Jack, Arnie, Trevino, Player, and Watson are going to go on vacation together like today's tour players. Those guys were rivals on and off the course in their prime. The amount of jealousy on tour was pretty high. For every allegation of cheating leveled at Player, the same was said about Watson. The skins game story is ridiculous; media stirring up the pot. Tom did not like losing the skin and let his anger get in the way of better judgment and started leveling accusations; it was a totally classless move. And once again, calling it out way after the fact. All those people watching but only Watson knows the leaf is not loose. Really?

The silly part about the 1974 Open is (1) the ruling the clubhouse was an integral part of there course, so no relief (that wouldn't happen today), and (2) there's a bunch of people watching and ready to call a penalty if there was one. So what are we taking about 46 years later?!?!

[lchang]

No no. Brooks was saying he himself had been guilty of not speaking up when witnessing someone in his group do something fishy. In the past. He wasn’t saying that he was guilty of improving his lie.

His point is that he no longer has to be intimidated into staying quiet given his current status in the game.

[Hawkeye77]

I have no doubt Reed knew he was moving sand.He handled the situation poorly and was even more stupid about it in Australia, putting "I" above his playing partner and the team with his antics, much like his comments after the Ryder Cup.He ain't gonna change.He has redeeming qualities, many have attested to that who have dealt with him. Those may or may not translate to competition situations - maybe they can't for him to succeed?I'm not talking about his past incidents any more and am now evaluating him moving forward (like he cares or even should care what I think, lol). I figure his peers are the ones best positioned to judge him and (see 3 above) I'm hopeful there may be signs he "gets it" someday, BUT there are probably things that need to be addressed with his peers before the Ryder Cup and I hope Captain Stricker is working on that even now because he's going to qualify and the TEAM needs him.Now back to the noise that is Koepka!

[Roadking2003]

"The silly part about the 1974 Open is (1) the ruling the clubhouse was an integral part of there course, so no relief (that wouldn't happen today), and (2) there's a bunch of people watching and ready to call a penalty if there was one. So what are we taking about 46 years later?!?!"

 

What we are talking about is that he obviously improved his lie. The number of people watching is irrelevant.

[CasualLie]

It's this kind of jump to conclusion nonsense that gives someone an undeserved reputation. Most of my fellow golfers I know would be laughing right now as I seem to be defending Gary Player; a guy I once politely told he should leave the room because the business people are trying to have a conversation. Watch the R&A video on a large screen, set youTube to .25 playback speed. Clearly, he sets a putter down behind the ball and for his practice stroke, at the point he touches the sandy dirt, and sweeps it away, it is at least 3 inches behind the ball. For a putt, how is that improving your lie? What is the rule violation here? And when I say a bunch of people watching, I am talking about officials. On the 72nd hole of the Open, the number of people around the green from the R&A is more than sufficient to see and call out something against the rules.

I get it, it is not a "good look" to see the sand swept into a cloud, but again, what is the rules violation and how does the official standing on top of it not call it or say anything given he just made a ruling on relief?

The real controversy of that Open was what happened on the 17th hole. Again, nothing done wrong, but the Player haters thought how convenient the ball was found right before the 5 minute mark after seemingly going in a shrub. People actually thought the Caddy pulled off an Oddjob / Goldfinger move.

[davep043]

To @CasualLie , who says:
"Clearly, he sets a putter down behind the ball and for his practice stroke, at the point he touches the sandy dirt, and sweeps it away, it is at least 3 inches behind the ball. For a putt, how is that improving your lie? What is the rule violation here? "
Here's the rule as it was in 1974:
"A player shall not improve, or allow to be improved, his line of play, the position or lie of his ball or the area of his intended swing by moving, bending or breaking anything fixed or growing, or by removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, cut turf placed in position, or other irregularities of surface which could in any way affect the player's lie, except: (none of these exceptions apply here)"
In this case, its nearly identical to P Reed's transgression. Sand or loose sand was removed in the area between the place where Player soles his putter and a few inches back, clearly in the area of his intended swing. In Reed's case, with his ball in a footprint, the sand he moved was a little distance behind the ball, its impossible to tell just how far with just the one camera angle. Its possible the sand that got moved wasn't in the direct arc of a steep backswing, but it was definitely in the "area of his intended swing".

[Forged4ever]

 

Hey Bro, how goes it?

 

Thanks much for the thoughts and words?

 

I’m a lil biased regarding Patrick and realize that my views and opinions are tainted by an emotional bias cuz I did see another side to to him though I told him that he’s his own worst enemy however a lot of this baggage followed him from his college time at your School, UGA, then on to Augusta State, and even though he basically put those Augusta teams on his back and carried em to back to back Titles, he was a lone wolf in that locker room.

 

Its a d@mn shame, though he made his bed and had/has to sleep in it. I have only putted with him(versus hitting balls on the line or Playing with him), and I will say that his focus is myopic when he goes through his PSR and then steps into the box, and lil things occurred that I know from prior experiences that other Tour guys would’ve stepped out and gone through their routine again, and his focus was so laser sharp that he didn’t even notice, much less acknowledge and adjust, to outside “noise,” so while I have no friggin idea what he did or did not see, based on what I observed on a practice green, I can totally believe that in the heat of competition he did not see that sand displaced in real time as we had the luxury of seeing on replay.

 

Could he have handled that whole situation better?

 

Absolutely, no doubt!!!

 

However, one thing that I know as sure as I know my name, DOB & SS#....

 

He doesn’t give a flyin f*ck what you, I, the press or the other Tour Boys think of him, his actions or his reactions.

 

I also believe that while the “attacks” may bother him internally when he’s sitting there by himself, and this is just my opinion based on discussions, though it’s akin to the “he doth protest too much,” in that he spends too much time, energy and emotions telling people that “I don’t give a sh*t what people say about me. I quit caring a long time ago,” he will never ever concede or show that they affect him externally.

 

Well, if that were truly the case, then he wouldn’t even mention it and if someone asked, which no one close to him did as they already knew his thoughts, and I am by no means putting myself in that group as actually Maddie has spent more time around him cuz of her relationship with Justine, he would just make a remark and move on, next subject.

 

I’m just glad that he’s on “our” team cuz he really really gets fired up and his “me against the world,” while it wouldn’t work in a football locker room, and he has to be paired appropriately in team events, and before someone starts chirping about that, think about many other Players, most of them the TOP Players, who, for whatever reason, have to be paired accordingly, he’s a great guy to have on a RC Team.

 

Patrick is no different, his issues just may be different, however with a lot of teams, filling and fitting personality gaps, strengths & weaknesses are more important than fitting physical game traits, just as the mental game is more critical than physical on ANY stage when the lights go on.

 

Without getting into our private discussions, I’ll leave it at Patrick has a small laminated copy of President Teddy Roosevelt’s “Man in the Arena,” that he carries in his wallet, he knows ver batim and he recites to himself prior to every competitive round.

Whether someone loves him or loathes him, and for the record, I’m in the middle, this sums him and his outlook up pretty succinctly??

 

Well, so much for my ramblings, lol?

 

Stay Well Brother, have a great season⛳️ and I hope that the Dawgs bury bama this year. My good Tour Bud is a Crimson Tide alum and if I wake up the day after one more Tide victory to either another stupid *ss “Roll Tide” meme text or his knarly *ss southern drawn “Roll Tide” in my messages, I’m gonna destroy my phone, lolol

 

Oh, and Hawk, though we differ in our opinions regarding what Patrick may or may not have seen with his practice swing, one, you know me, and if I didn’t like him, I’d be at the top of the pile, and I’d keep jumping off only to jump back on the pile, accusing him of being the biggest cheat this side of Gary Player, like I do with Norman(Not for bein a cheat, just for being a genetically created? and environmentally reinforced *sshole)???.

 

Secondly, I love ya ? and Maddie and I both wish you a great year and season???(the kiss is from Madison. I’m not secure enough yet to send “guy kisses.” Me and my shrink are working on that part of my personality? My mental closet is like a friggin Samsonite manufacturing factory with all of the baggage in it??)

My Best,

Richard

 

[Sean2]

At this point Reed could run into a burning building, save the lives of two kids, and someone would find fault with that.

[Hawkeye77]

Well said as always!

+100 on letting Maddie handle the kissing!

Looking forward to hearing great things this season and best wishes to all!

[bscinstnct]

 

PR be like

 

https://media.giphy.com/media/Wr4shv0TxEVzO/giphy.gif

[Hawkeye77]

Well, it seems some would only if he survives. ;-)