USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[Shilgy]

With bifurcation would come legalized sandbagging. Establish your handicap with the short ball and play big events with the souped up ball.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Exactly what I think! Mixed handicap matches would be horrible.

My first thought was to never practice putting and chipping. Play the short ball.

Wouldn't work very well.

[mahonie]

I do that already! Play handicap qualifying competitions with the Pinnacle, then play events with Pro V1...you won’t believe what a difference it makes.

[Holy Moses]

There was a study that came out recently that showed the modern ball with modern clubs vs older balls with older clubs and older clubs with newer balls vs newer clubs with older balls. I can't remember who put this test on? Anyone remember?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

There’s a number of them. This is old clubs versus new. If I had to guess he was mishitting all the shots but the persimmon punished him more.

I doubt the USGA had Persimmon drivers in mind. Makes more sense to just ban drivers from sanctioned events. Modern vs Classic Golf Equipment Tested: What Has Changed?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

 

https://youtu.be/J5ZBHuyblqQIt’s the shaft Lol.

I stand corrected, although, my persimmon was not that much different with “good” shots than my current driver. But, I also didn’t get 6500 rpm spin on my old clubs. Spin was right around 3000rpm for both M2 and persimmon.

 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

The bottom line...https://www.golf.com/equipment/i-can-break-par-strong50-year-old-clubsstrong-no-problem

[MadGolfer76]

I beg to differ...

[molecularman]

The real question there is: Why was his SS 99 with the persimmon and 111 with the TM M2?

 

If one gains around 3 yards per MPH - that's a 36 yard jump only due to increased club head speed.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

The article with Harrington seems to indicate he slowed down to hit the sweet spot which is smaller on the Persimmon. I’d have to guess Armour did the same thing but likely came down really steep with the persimmon. 6500rpm is like a 7i or 6i. Persimmon is also heavier and definitely not fitted to his swing.

[QuigleyDU]

As I thought this thread would be a hot one. So hot that I have not had time, to sit here and read every post. I have over time started trying to think of "where is the middle ground"? What options are there that the majority of golfers can live with. While thinking about that, I have come up with some questions that I truly do not know the answers to. Equipment as improved. I do not argue that, so lets talk about other things.
Is this all just a reaction to the game changing? Sports and athletics change. The basketball that my Dad watched is not the same in the NBA. Neither is baseball, or football, or pick whatever sport you want. How people play golf is changing. With the explosion of stat keeping and sabermetric advances. How the pros approach the game is different. They are seeing that playing a certain way increases their likely hood of posting a good score. Where in the past they may have thought, "lay back and then do ". Now stats are showing that hitting driver all the time is the better play. That is not all driven by better equipment. That is purely an approach to the game that is changing. Every competitor is going to look for an advantage. They are going to look for a simpler path and try to out think their competitors. In the game of golf, that competitor is really the course and the design. So they are going to try and find an easier way to skin the cat. So are golfers just opting to hit driver 14 times instead of 9? Is that part of the reason for increase?Are there more "athletes" specializing in golf? When I was in high school, I participated in 3 sports every year. Football, wrestling, and golf. I started playing golf in high school because I wanted to do something, but by spring I was tired of running, being beat up and bruised and being yelled at by coaches to work harder. So I started playing golf and got hooked. I wish I could go back and have just spent all my time and effort on golf. Athletes in every sport and specializing. They are spending more money, more time, and more effort to get really good at a young age at one thing rather than play many. Coaches, coaching, and all things involved have improved tremendously over a relatively short time. Is that happening here and we are just seeing the fruits of all these young kids that have worked really hard and been coached a specific way? To hit the ball hard, because that is how you win. Do we really need to protect classic iconic courses? Hear me out @15th Club. I know you are probably rolling your eyes. But hear me out. What are we trying to protect with these courses? An arbitrary number in par? The way these courses are played and how they look? What? As it is with all sporting events, the best wins. The team that scores the most points, or the golfer that shoots the lowest score? Do they really need to lengthen alter, expand, or renovate these courses. So the very best golfer in the world shoots a 67 instead of a 60 on it? What is the worst that would happen if you left that as is? Would the suddenly be less prestigious of a venue? Second that here is what makes these courses special? Their elite'ness? Their exclusivity? Their super rich and stuffy members? If lets say Pebble Beach became obsolete for tour events, and they no longer decided to host the US open or ATT&T there. Is that really a terrible thing? It is a super expensive course that most golfers will never get to play? Maybe, if that status changed a bit, it would become more affordable. These iconic (again, I hate that word) courses are also super wealthy and have no problems being maintained. I know the USGA reports alluded to some climate change aspects but I find it hard that they really care about that. I am not so sure that old courses being made obsolete is really a bad thing. I don't know. What is the real goal for the USGA? I would love to know what their real goal is. The report didn;t really offer any solutions, or even further approaches to addressing what they think is a problem. It almost seems pointless as I have read through it twice. Yes, all 102 pages and the 16 page summary. The stated that it is the health of the game. Well, am not sure the game is unhealthy as a result of this. There are multiple reasons that golf is contracting, but is distance one of them?These are just a few questions I have been thinking about.. The report does not really answer any of them. There needs to be a third party research project, under as normalized conditions as possible. This report is far from normalized. The data was gathered over multiple years, in varying conditions, With different players involved, and on different courses. There are so many variables in this report not accounted for that it really makes in a pointless report. It needs to be a third party to take the bias out of it.

[molecularman]

It'd be interesting to see if club-head speed could return if a golfer only played with a persimmon for some length of time, or if there would always be some sort of gap (accounting for potentially using a shorter shaft and such).

[Holy Moses]

QuigleyDU, the goal of the USGA, in their words, is to fix the many problems that distance is bringing to the game. No solutions were yet presented because those solutions are coming in a year once they receive feedback.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

My M2 plays the same but for a higher percentage of good shots. I can hit all over the face and still get good drives. Persimmon is a lower percentage for me.

I’d think a pro could easily adjust to a persimmon and with modern fitting, find the perfect shaft for any given day.

Good thread. My main peeve is anything that could slow down an already unbearable pace of play.

[Sean2]

USGA: U Should Go Away.

I am watching the ISPS Handa. The roll out on tee shots is crazy. They said yesterday one player receive 72 meters of roll out after his ball landed in the fairway.

ps: just saw Min Woo Lee hit a drive almost 400 yards.

[Holy Moses]

365 with his 3 iron yesterday, but 120 of that was roll

[Sean2]

Definitely need to dial back the equipment. With rolled-back equipment he would have only received 10 yards of roll.

[15th Club]

" I am not so sure that old courses being made obsolete is really a bad thing. I don't know."

 

Yes.  You don't know.

[15th Club]

Well since the United States Golf Association has nothing to do with that tournament or that golf course in Barwon Heads, Victoria, Australia, u might not have such a good point.

But I am loving this golf course.  It looks like the Melbourne Sandbelt but I don't think it is in the Sandbelt.  Great ocean breezes. Fabulous new design that looks like it had been there a hundred years.

[bladehunter]

 

in my opinion yes depending on course. Our county am winning score 2-3 years ago was -17 ... 17 under par for 3 days on a 7200 yard course. And that winner hasn’t qualified for the US am yet. The next year included 2 current university of Georgia players who drove on or greenside of 3 par 4 greens each day on a very tough course . The winner (Phillips ) blew the field away on a windy course at -13 These type players are what I’m playing against regularly. And this is local low level stuff. When you get to the USGA level it’s the top 5 of all these type events poured into one event. There are thousands of thes guys across the country. Some leader board pics to show I’m not making it up

[QuigleyDU]

So educate me? Why is it a bad thing? Part of my thought is that the can’t be made to be obsolete. It’s a false idea and scare tactic.

[Sean2]

No, but it does go to the problem.

Minjee Lee's brother has got some game. Every time I see him he is sniffing around the leaderboard.

[clevited]

A person only needs to look up Rickie Fowler's persimmon drive to see what is possible with practice. He was 170 ball speed and only a few mph lower with swing speed vs his modern club. This was with a modern ball but shows you what the difference is between modern and old equipment might be if practiced with.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Kind of guessed this was the case. To add to this, I doubt anyone will force people to kill persimmon trees for golf clubs. The fruit tastes better and clubs will continue to be made from titanium. The COR can be controlled to 0.80. Persimmon performance varies too much.

I doubt USGA cares about anyone’s opinions.

The bottom line is that they will probably change the equipment because they think people are hitting too far now and possibly destroy records set by the golfing greats of the past.

What they don’t realize is that most of the players in the past optimized their gear by cherry picking only the best clubs in a batch, which likely made them as good as current technology.

So, in the end, modern players who need to use this new hobbled equipment will likely be at a disadvantage to the old greats. Funny how that works.

[CasualLie]

Please...this notion classic/historic courses are at risk of major championships...where is the evidence?

Would love to see a list of major championship classic / historic courses obsoleted by distance.

It's total nonsense. I saw something resembling a list a few pages ago and it was dead wrong. It is more likely an historic venue is outdated because you can't fit 50,000 fans and the parking sucks than because it's too short.

A few years ago a bunch of classicists went nuts over Merion. It's too short! How can it stand up!???

1981 US Open Winner 6544 yards -7 total

2013 6996 yards winner at +1

Riviera has been around -14 for the winner on PGA Tour last few years. That can be toughened up for an open. And if it's so vulnerable to distance why is it already selected for 2028 Olympics?

Shinnecock? That's a joke right? Vulnerable classic course? Not even remotely in danger.

Winged Foot? Oakmont? Hazeltine? Oakland Hills? All holding their own.

Let's just end this debate now.

 

 

 

 

[jmck]

You'd have a point, if they played the 2013 US Open at 6544 yards. As it is, you're proving the opposite point. Over the course of ~20 years they had to add ~450 yards. This tracks with yardage increases at other venues, and think for a second what it implies for the future. At Merion there is zero room to add more yards, so if distance keeps increasing there's a pretty solid argument to be made that, yes, Merion is obsolete. If not in 2013, then possibly in 2023 and more possibly still in 2033. That's about as simple as logic gets. They had to add 450 yards in 20 years to keep it from being obsolete. There is no more room to add another 450 yards, so there's a pretty good chance it'll be obsolete in another 20 years.

And please don't say distance is maxed out as of Merion in 2013. There is still plenty of room for improvement in equipment design and there are still holes to exploit in current equipment testing.

Over a similar period of time as Merion, Pebble and Oakmont each added about 300 yards, and Shinnecock added 500. Pinehurst added 300 between '99 and '14. Olympic has gone from 6700 in '66, to 6800 in '98, to 7200 in 2012. Congressional has gone from 7000 in '64, to 7200 in '97, to 7600 in '11. How many of those venues are also out of room or getting close to it? What about venues that used to be able to host men's Opens but are now only long enough to host women's or senior Opens? Are they not obsolete as far as hosting a men's US Open goes? Augusta has added 500 yards over the last 20 years and just spent $27m buying property to add another 50. St Louis CC tips out at 6600 with all 9 of its par 4s under 425 yards and used to be able to host a men's US Open. You really think it's the lack of parking that's keeping them from going back there? I don't know what more evidence you need.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Right, it’s obviously not this. My only conclusion is records of past players being broken. Even that doesn’t make sense.

I feel exactly the same way, it’s nonsensical to shorten equipment.

It’ll have the opposite effect they think it will. Even longer bombers will be needed to play with the proposed hobbled equipment. Everyone will hit fairways, but just how far?

[ibradley]

We do hit it far enough. We just play courses that are too long. The reason we play courses that are too long is because the pros hit it so darn far. We watch them play 7500+ yard courses and then feel any course shorter than that is not a "championship" course. The "tips" are set at 7300 yards. We don't play the back tees but we play one set up. That is too long.

The report shows that typical ams have gained very little distance with the ball and driver. We will lose very little with a rollback.

[jmck]

I'll tell you what to do with persimmons. Skin and seed them, mash em up, give them a little bit of a whisking, then fold in about the same amount of freshly whipped cream. A few slivered almonds on top if you're so inclined. That's good eating right there. Subtle, but crazy good. We have three trees ourselves and I'd never cut them down to turn them into drivers.

Anyhow, if anyone's curious, the COR of a really good persimmon head was about .77-.78. Next figure is ballpark, as it depends on club head speed, but .01 COR = about 1% ball speed, so the difference between a modern .83 COR head and a very good persimmon head should be about 5% ball speed, again depending on swing speed.

That all misses the point though, because the persimmon head has one square inch at the absolute most where all that ball speed is accessible, and it drops off very very quickly as you move outward. The modern head has around 6 square inches where the vast majority of that ball speed is available, with little to no directional penalty to be found in there. It's not just about ball speed. It's the freedom to swing as hard as you want and miss it almost anywhere on the face with good results. With persimmon there's a need to know how to center it if you're going to score; with modern drivers, much less so. It would be impossible to roll back the drivers--to say nothing of the balls--in a way that would disadvantage the modern golfer compared to the greats of yesteryear. You could limit everyone a 975D and while not as forgiving as an Epic Flash it would still be a massive upgrade compared to persimmon.

[15th Club]

jmck; based on your 9:53 am post just above, I hope you remain very active on this topic. I know I am not alone in this debate. Not with Gary Player, Jack Nicklaus, Greg Norman and Tiger Woods on our side. But at the GolfWRX forum pages, Dave and Greg and I are usually outnumbered.