USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[farmer]

I suspect that a huge parcel of land would have take into account roads, lot sizes, utilities and so forth. Small parcel would be challenging, but most likely just golf concerns.

[Z1ggy16]

Bunch of guys just got demolished today playing a 6800 yard course. Make greens smaller & firmer...make the rough longer, make the fairways narrower. Stop putting in more trees so the wind can have its effect on flight. Today literally prooves you do not need 7500+ yards to challenge elite professionals. You need small greens and wind. Imagine these guys being forced to play a ball that went 10% shorter or spun 10% more LOL it would have been a joke. Nobody wants to pay $150 a head to go watch DJ shoot near 80, regardless if players really do hit the ball too far.

[Kevinnz]

I think the gears definitely are getting better (longer) but they cannot ignore that golfers, esp pros are getting more efficient by not only understanding the mechanics better but starting from a much younger age. Like i mentioned before my 10yo is able to carry 180y easily because he started hitting balls from 6.

If the governing bodies are penalising nature talents and skills by introducing dumb balls and drivers, thats just killing the sport.

[Kevinnz]

To me i think fred is swinging much effciently now than 30 yrs ago, look at how much swing mechanism that we understand now.

Of coz the gears are getting better, no doubt. Isnt it what should be happening?

But are long hitters winning the majority of the wknds? No not really. Is fred winning over his peers? Some of his peers are getting 20y further than him but are they winning?

Taking the open as an example, long hitters havnt had much chances unless they bring their A plus iron and short game.

So pinning the lengthening of the courses, or altering courses as what shouldnt be happening for the future of golf to the gear effects, thats just nuts.

Web simpsons put it in the right way, narrow the fairway and greens, grow the roughs. Deepen the bunkers mayb?

 

[15th Club]

Narrowing fairways with more penal rough does several things.

First and foremost, it eliminates strategy. It reduces angles and lines of play. It forces all players into the same line. It is antithetical to every concept of good golf architecture. And all for what? Just to control what? An arbitrary scoring number? To be able to preserve current equipment, at the expense of current courses?

Is “Web simpsons” the same as Webb Simpson? Do you have a more detailed quote, an a link for some context? I can’t imagine Webb saying something so dully stupid, by maybe there’s another explanation.

Yeah.https://www.titleist.com/tour/1544/webb-simpson

[Sean2]

If OEM's can't sell distance, what will they sell? Accuracy? Club esthetics? Launch angle? I see the USGA as an ivory tower, "inside the beltway", wine and cheese organization that has no clue what goes on with the average recreational golfer. Furthermore, I would opine they don't care, no matter what lip service they may pay to the average recreational golfer.

Unlike the pope, the USGA is not infallible. :-)

[The Pearl]

I suspect reasonably intelligent folks would deem it rather idiotic to base a bifurcation decision on the fact that a few folks live in fantasyland. Besides, if you want to try to measure yourself against pros than by all means play the reduced distance tour ball. Have at it. I am really not in either camp, but the USGA should crap or get off the pot.

[The Pearl]

Bifurcation would not stop you from playing whatever you want.

[Titleist99]

You are correct....Nick Taylor and Kevin Streelman both at 290 yards all drive average. Brendon Todd and Graeme Mcdowell average 285 and 275 all drive average. All recent winners on the PGATOUR. I think American golf courses are safe from becoming obsolete......IMO Rolling back equipment is a Lazy idea.

Introduce strategy to the game not length, make bad shots more penal..... Just my opinion.

[disco111]

All these debates about distance vs roll back vs older courses is just much a do about nothing. First and foremost, the USGA was/has been nutered by Karsten. They don't have the cahones to make any decision that would impact the OEM's, for fear of another Ping fiasco. We have to face the fact that they let the manufactures have free reign and we have arrived at a juncture where something either must give or the game as we would like to know it will be history. For all those that think that player conditioning is the real major factor, there are more than enough players on tour thay could be in a weight watchers commercial and still pound the ball with the best of the gym warriors. So what's the answer? There really isn't one, Elvis has left the building so to speak. The only logically thing would be to let the tour run their own rules (as they have on several occasions), for they are entertainment, just like the NBA, MLBB, Nascar and so on. The real game is played by thousands of everyday working family joe's who dream about playing well but only have so much time and cash. That's were the USGA needs to focus their attention on and find ways to help reduce the cost of maintance for courses and perhaps the cost to play the local muni can come down to something that's affordable so the joe's can play more than 2 or 3 times a month. To me, that's really growing the game...........

[deadsolid...shank]

I don’t believe if you reduce a 25 yard fairway to 20, or even 30 to 20, you have reduced enough lines of play or angles to change any strategies. And almost all of them are playing the same lines already anyway. Because let’s be realistic, the vast majority of players are playing the majority of holes the same way. Some just farther along on that same line. How much strategy is there in the game now anyway?

Original designs and styles get changed. It’s why we don’t have two peach baskets hanging at the end of gyms any more.

While I agree with you that the ball is the problem, I don’t agree with you on the solution. Ams want to play the same equipment that the pros play. And they also don’t want to all of a sudden become “shorter”. So bifurcation and and a ball rollback are both bad options in my opinion. That leaves one option. “Tricking“ up the course to protect par (which is a hallmark of the USGA whom you so vigorously defend). Which of those three options has an effect on the least amount of people who play? Adjusting the course does. I’m (and the majority of the golfing public) never going to play most of these select courses that you don’t want changed. So I don’t care if it plays differently for the pros than the architect intended. He’s likely not with us any more anyway. And if the pros don’t like it, they can choose to skip the tournament, no one is forcing them to play

Im good with no more increases in regards to how far the ball goes, but I really believe trying to take away the gains equipment has given is a bad idea.

[Wdwfreak]

I should’ve posted these awhile ago, lot of evidence for the equipment today, but I particularly like these videos. Including one that basically makes the argument for how much different the equipment is now, except its promoting a new club.... Go figure.

Presented now without further comment. They may have been, but im not reading through 26 pages.

[munichop]

So as long as every course these guys play get wind and gusty wind that creates doubt they can finally separate themselves. Otherwise it's a birdie fest. Those arguing that equipment doesn't need changing don't realize you are making the opposite point. This course had 2 par 5's that every player could reach in 2 - the 6th with an iron off the tee and a 6 iron approach. These guys are not as good as they think they are. The equipment allows them to play without fear most of the time and when they do have to think they have days like today. Well, years ago the equipment forced a player to think every day. Fear was the default emotion on most shots not the exception it has now become.

[bladehunter]

Yea. But. If the wind doesn’t blow it takes -25 to win it. Really.

Doesnt really compute when 20 mph wind is needed.

[Rob McHugh]

Granted I am late to the party and have not read this thread in it's entirety, but I agree with this. I was watching the Farmers Insurance and - IIRC - it was the 10th? at Torrey where they have moved the bunker on the left back some way, which the commentators stated was in preparation for the US Open. We were then treated to the usual 'what bunker', 'he's blasted it way past'. 'it's not even in play' etc etc. Am I missing something here? Why would they move a bunker which was in play, back so the pros can drive it and any of the public will now probably reach it - isn't this the opposite of what they should be doing.

Today watching Pebble, they are in the process of flattening out the greens apparently; the heavily sloped, small greens and wind are its defence so why make it easier? I get the average punter likes these birdie fests, but surely there are enough people like me that want to see these guys have to strategise and utilise all aspects of the game.

I believe they should have more courses like Merion in the roster personally; not that long, but an 'old school' tough test.

 

Rob

[Z1ggy16]

Either way, if they bifurcate and make pros use limited flight balls or clubs the shorter guys still are short, but now they are hitting even longer clubs than before.

Different rules, same results. Distance will be king unless they make the bomb and gouge play too risky. This isn't really rocket science.

[QuigleyDU]

Phil is an interesting person in this equation. He is one who you can see over his career has changed his swing and swung harder and harder at the ball over time. Equipment is part of the equation but honestly has worked to swing harder over time.

 

another observations. Cameron Champ, the longest guy out there absolutely got demolished today by a course threatened by obsolescence.

https://youtu.be/BRNLtIeUu40

[grm24]

DJ got demolished on Sunday as well. However nobody got wiped out as bad as Ryan Brehm. Although Paul Casey tried.

[OrangeGravy]

I don't know this for sure and maybe some of these course designers/architects also have golf course construction companies, but these big names are getting paid to DESIGN the course. That it completely different than building the course. I imagine they have a pretty consistent fee for coming up with a design. After all, the resources are pretty fixed for that endeavor. Now a construction company who actually builds the course that Jack designs, probably charges based on other variables. Something to ponder

[OrangeGravy]

100% ego driven. There is no logical reason the casual golfer should care one way or another. For some reason golfers (specially bad-serious golfers, the worst type IMHO) really hold on to the fantasy that they're almost as good as pro's. They have a death grip on that. It's why nobody wants bifurcation even though we already have it and always have in the modern era. Further bifurcating the game will take too big a bite out of that fantasy/ego pie for people to accept. Same goes for a rollback across the board. The average golfer's ego can't comprehend possibly hitting the ball a little bit shorter, even though EVERYONE else will be hitting it a little bit shorter and it won't change the pecking order of their playing group.

I don't think anyone who doesn't compete in legit am comps or above, should even be considered in this debate. None of them play by the rules anyway. If you changed the ball tomorrow and never told a soul, none of them would even notice.

[Chris52]

Need strong winds at all the tournaments, look at all the bogeys yesterday, and the big boomers struggling.

Can't they invest in wind machines or something to blow over the courses.

Wind makes the game so much more exciting and unpredictable, for the players and spectators

 

 

[bladehunter]

yep. That’s the logic trail I’m following too. I cannot see the logic in why the “ 2 off the first rolling it in the fairway “ crowd cares if their clubs conform to pro rules to not. The two games are not at all the same.

[bladehunter]

Good lord. Wind machines ??‍♂️Blank me .... why not drones shooting at them , or land mines ?

 

The beer guzzlers have already killed it .... haven’t they ? Wow.

[airjammer]

How about we just change the “drag coefficient?“ to make the balls slightly less stable in the wind? Let the ball companies that make millions do all the work.

 

[Hawkeye77]

We'll leave it at that. I don't really think you are making sense with that, but you think you are. I think someone else who may know more about it than either of us spoke to fees, but I don't have any personal experience with it.

[PureSlice]

People that complain about modern golf equipment must still be driving a 1914 Studebaker. Also, how are they posting on the internet?

[clevited]

One thought I had. Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the architect to make sure the product with their name on it is successful and popular? What I mean is, if I were an architect and the current "championship" course yardage that is popularly accepted to be long enough is 7200 yards minimum, I wouldn't design it unless I had 7200 yards to work with, otherwise in the golf propagandists view, it will be crap. I hope that makes sense what I am trying to say.

[clevited]

I find it disturbing the attitude you have towards certain types of golfers. It is very elitist and very much the image the USGA has to many of us "bad-serious" golfers (I would probably fall under that umbrella of yours). Contrary to your beliefs, these people are important too. You seem to forget or not think about the size of the roll back that would be needed, nor do you seem to understand the problems with bifurcation. Think about what the USGA is trying to do, think about how much distance reduction it would actually take to do it. Now think of all the variables involved. You would easily come to the conclusion that it is not worth doing. It is a waste of time and money and the USGA would be much better served trying to find REAL ways to lower cost, shorten play times and get more people to play the game.

[Hawkeye77]

Yep. They design and build what their clients and the market require.

[Hawkeye77]

Last paragraph is BS.