USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[Titleist99]

Well, you can't compare wedges to golf balls because wedges is an option and golf balls are a necessity. Secondly....amateurs want to play what the pro play. Third.....why would you want to bring the pros distance closer to the armatures distance, I think television viewing would suffer. I can only speak or myself but I wouldn't want to pay high cable bills to watch someone hit a golf ball as long as myself.

Finally....when Brendon Todd who average 280-285 can almost win three tour events in a row and Graeme McDowell who average 270-275 off the tee win recently.....I think things are just fine.....the sky isn't falling. Hitting it over 300+ means nothing if you can't get it close to the hole.

Just my opinion...

On a side note: I once asked which courses was obsolete due to bombers and got bogus responds or crickets. Pebble Beach is one o the shortest courses in the rotation....with wind and small greens and a great setup it's only defense, the pros had all they could handle......IMO.

[bladehunter]

Lol. My personal opinions said here aren’t ever voiced anywhere else. Thanks. I simply abstain from things I don’t enjoy. I don’t try to block others from enjoying their favorite vices. And I’m not at all now. Nor was I in that post you quoted. I simply was showing that person the opposite perspective.

Does it make sense for me to both project an unwelcome attitude to anyone and at the same time say “ welcome “ and spend time and effort and members money , (Volunteering)to try to attract the persons you’re accusing me of repelling ?

Try to stay on topic. My post had a target and she I hope understands at least what I’m trying to say? I frequently fail with getting thoughts to words perfectly. But if you’re fishing for someone who has Ill intentions towards women you are barking up the wrong tree.

[farmer]

If distance is rolled back by 10%, that 7200 yd course is now effectively almost 8000 yds. Even for tour players, that is going to be nearly unplayable. So, courses move the tees up to 66-6700 yds, and the long players wind up playing about the same clubs into the greens as they do today. For seniors and the average player, that 6000 yd course becomes a slog. What have we gained here? A massive, expensive industry reset that benefits no one.

[jmck]

Apologies if my reply came off as dismissive, wasn’t my intent. Anywho, as far as golf goes, I’ve heard from people more knowledgeable than myself that there are some pretty big breakthroughs in shaft tech which aren’t far down the pike. Shafts currently aren’t tested, for anything, at all. There’s a lot that can still be done with COG manipulation which can add distance without running afoul of the CT limit. It’ll take another material breakthrough, but there’s someone sitting at a desk somewhere working on it right now. And clubs are only tested for a few things, so there are still holes to take advantage of there. Like MOI, they only test for it in one plane, but you have free rein to do whatever you want with it in the other planes. The better materials get the more things like that will come into play.

Then there’s the next phase of fitting—I think we’re already starting to see the beginning of this on tour, with companies making a dozen different conforming versions of the Maverick or SIM or what have you. Forget getting a good head/shaft combo. How about a head and shaft each custom made just for you, for every club in the bag? Machine learning will watch you hit 100 balls and figure out exactly what you should be playing based on a database of a few billion other balls and send the specs straight to the factory to build it just for you....and suddenly the days of a bag of meat running a trackman with an 1st gen iPad and a few dozen shafts on the wall seem quaint.

It might be incremental progress with plateaus here and there, but there’s still plenty of room for more progress. Always is.

[bladehunter]

Please @clevited read this ^. Lol. This is the dynamic I see happening too. Only I’m not out looking to beat up senior players. But the same scale would be true of the mid ams I do play against that grossly benefit from today’s forgiving drivers and anti spin ball.

Ugh. Anyway. I’m tired of this. Trolls starting to come out and throw poop. I’ll check back later on. Lol.

[Titleist99]

The opposite of that.......minimal rough, soft greens and wide fairways and short courses.....sounds like a Champions tour course. IMO

[jvincent]

My beanies are in a different area as well, but I'm going to give my mech eng brothers the benefit of the doubt.

I expect it's more of an aerodynamics problem in the end. The current USGA test launch parameters are so far off from optimal that just changing those would probably result in every ball on the market today being non-conforming.

[bscinstnct]

 

Lol, I'm not sure. While that quote sounds pretty definitive, I assume there is some reason that people think they are looking at a roll back?

 

Also from the piece,

 

"A rollback has been the presumed outcome for many on both sides of the debate, a prevailing theory being that the USGA has been saving the resources to wage a legal war. Except multiple current and former USGA employees say that’s not the case, stating the last thing the USGA and R&A want are courtroom battles and broken relationships."

 

It's really not practical for the USGA RA to try to mandate any meaningful rollback on distance. The players won't go for it and that's pretty much where it ends. Plus, as I mentioned, with this new World Golf League thing, you don't want to tick off Rory and all the big hitters and the new league says, "come on down and hit as far as you want" and offers all kinds of money to get guys to jump ship.

 

The best they can do is get distance frozen where it is. In the meantime, it's not a bad strategy to get the players all freaked out about a very bad potential outcome and then they are relieved at no rollback and fine with no more distance advances.

 

And, as I mentioned, the players already can hit the ball farther than they do now. Considerably farther. But they don't because it starts to diminish the ability to score.

 

 

[QuigleyDU]

There is no assumption. At least on this forum. 15th, who seems to know what the USGA are thinking to the point of speaking for them, and claims to have a lot of insight (and maybe he does). Has only ever pointed at the ball as the solution.

[bscinstnct]

 

 

Well, like any other entity, I'm sure there are the more "militant" members who would love roll things back to balata days. Literally, lol. But, per that quote, there is wishful thinking and there is reality.

 

Look at it this way. The pros hold all the cards. You have guys like Jack and the old timers who want something done. But, pro golf is about the players and the fans. The fans love the long ball and spinning wedges. Sure, it's great to see a US Open and the pros look stupid once in a while. But if golf tournaments turn into guys missing fairways and hacking it out of the rough, nobody is going to watch. A bit of hyperbole on my part but that's the general idea.

 

There is zero chance of any meaningful rollback on distance. Zero chance they are going to tell Rory, BK, and Rambo that their driving distance is going down 30 yards from one season to the next.

Can you imagine?! And I think Jack and some people actually want 20%! That's like 60 yards. On what planet do they think PGA Pros are going to accept going from 300 yard drives....to 240 yards?!

 

 

The rollback is a lazy solution anyway. Be creative with course set up. There are so many experts, devote time to figuring out how to make distance *without accuracy more of a challenge.

[oikos1]

"if you’re fishing for someone who has Ill intentions towards women you are barking up the wrong tree."

As expected, that went right over your head. It doesn't matter if it's men or women.

[bladehunter]

Forgot to reply. Lol

 

yes. I agree with that observation. It certainly cut spin for me to a more useable level. I once had a raw set of Vega blades that you’d have to pick golf ball “fur” out of the grooves on every shot. Sharp as razors. I could pull a 4 iron back if I tried. As a side note. I sent them in to the USga lab to be tested as I had no clue of the year made , and the tester who I had spoke to on the phone prior to testing , called me back and actually laughed . He said “ these fail more than any iron or wedge I’ve ever seen. “. Talk about ball control once you got used to them .

 

So yes Mostly agree Although I would still go back to bigger sharper grooves if I could .

I guess my final thought is . Those of us who are interested in a rollback (if it’s done correctly) , we aren’t making up what we see . Meaning it’s not coming from a dishonest place

 

[QuigleyDU]

I completely agree with you. I remember seeing Jacks 20% comment. I also think good golf limits distance to a good amount as well. Every tour pro I have ever seen make a comment has said they get shorter on the tour out of necessity. you see the Korn Ferry guys bomb it. Then they get on tour and move backwards. Cameron Champ bombs it but as mentioned has many other holes in his game. The game is so much more than distance that this is all silly talk.

Also, it is to protect may 100 golf courses? Elite, rich, private, discriminatory, old boys club, white private courses.. Is that really how we want the game to be portrayed? That we have to change the game for everyone because just a few courses may not be considered for the US open anymore?? Especially when those courses have just a few hundred members and the scoff at letting anyone else in to their world??

[Sean2]

 

[bladehunter]

Sorry. Missed this.

 

Yea. Somewhat agree. I’m not sure most have much in the tank. dJ Rory and maybe tiger. Sure. Phil is giving you all he has. As is Brooks and Bryson. So I think it’s a mix really. But yes. I do see your point.

But that being agreed on. I still say that points to it not hurting the long guy much. Which is my gripe. The short guy getting a disproportionate help.

[QuigleyDU]

I would believe that from you Blade. I have always appreciated your intellectual honesty. Same for @15th Club for that matter. I believe him when he gives his opinion and that it comes from a love of the game place. I am just not sure I agree with it. Especially when it come to protecting those uber wealthy private clubs.
I do not demonize their existence, I just don't feel we need to change the entire game to protect them as courses worthy of hosting an event. They have money and can make changes is my thinking.

[bladehunter]

Lol. More word traps I see. Instead of playing games. Just plainly say what you mean.

 

[Sean2]

There are about 10,000 elite golfers in the world, out of 60 million plus golfers. The USGA seems to make all their rulings with the elite golfer in mind, and not the average one. And, it is the average golfer that keeps the sport afloat.

[bladehunter]

Thank you.

And that’s why I am interested in those who are truly at risk here.

 

Can we ( not you specifically but all WE) at least agree that the game played today from college up is NOT what we saw as recent as the early 2000s? It’s not the same at all. If we all agree on that , that has to be the first step to an actual compromise. Even if it’s as Basic said. Just a real and true freeze where we are. Which would need to include maxed out launch conditions for the USga testing.

 

[Sean2]

Specifically?

What about the aspiring young golfer? What equipment does he play? The "pro" equipment or the "average" equipment? What do the AJGA and colleges and universities do? What equipment do the play? What about state and national amateur tournaments? What equipment? When does the aspiring junior golfer make the switch...if ever...from the "average" equipment to the "pro" equipment? We aren't talking an aluminum baseball bat here...golf is a lot more complex.

What about OEM's? They will have to retool. And, the professionals and elite amateurs get their equipment for free or at little cost. Who is going to pay for that equipment to be manufactured? No doubt cost will be passed down to us, the average golfer.

Bifurcation is a bad idea. Once again the USGA motto is: Ready! Fire! Aim!

[smashdn]

There is so much wrong with that quote. The fact that there is even a single, let alone multiple and therefor a "leading", golf industry Wall Street financial analyst speaks volumes as to what the ruling bodies are up against.

 

This isn't about golf, the game, the courses or even the professional product, it is about money. And it seems it is mostly about money for the equipment companies.

[QuigleyDU]

I 100% agree. My return question is does today’s game “need” to be the same as the game played in 2000?

 

[mahonie]

I agree that they need to be creative with course set ups because the product the PGA Tour is peddling of bomb and gouge really is very boring to watch and one-dimensional. The game that is marketed and swallowed whole by the current generation is not half the game it was and I think that’s the main concern of the R&A at least. 400 yard drives with current equipment are possible and this is where the game is creeping to.

Without foresight, the USGA/R&A let the size of driver get out of all proportion with the other clubs in the bag...how thick would a ‘460 cc’ baseball bat equivalent be?

They dropped the ball a long time ago and to be honest I don’t know what the answer is now...restricting the use of driver to 5 times a round would be my starting point.

[Sean2]

I am almost 65 and started playing in 2004. :-)

[Soloman1]

It's not just Jack Nicklaus saying bifurcation is good for golf.

 

Arnie said it, Tiger and Dustin Johnson have said it. Pros should play with restricting, but consistent equipment and let the amateurs wail away with higher performing equipment.

 

I don't think equipment is the problem. I think the USGA is the problem.

[bladehunter]

Need is a strong word. For sure.

Maybe not. My preference is yes. But I’m not optimistic

[Sean2]

We are getting so used to bomb and gouge that a course set-up like Merion would seem "tricked up" in today's day and age. These folks are professionals as such they should be rewarded for putting the ball in the fairway, and missing the fairway should carry some kind of "penalty". The courses don't all have to be set-up like Merion, but -24 isn't professional golf in my opinion. Why not lower the rim in basketball to 8 feet? A "birdie fest" does not challenge the elite golfer and does not require the sets of skills required to play a US Open type course, or even one that gives the player pause every time he tees it up.

During the ISPS Handa I saw one player get 72 meters of roll after his ball hit. Another was just short of a 313 meter par 4...he teed off with a 4-iron.

[QuigleyDU]

I think that’s fair. Need is a strong word. This is a game there is no need for anything. But we all spend a decent amount of time and energy into it. So maybe in those terms there is a need somewhere. I think there is a happy ground somewhere. I just dont know what it is.

[Sean2]

That is your opinion of course. Yes it is about money...whether it is OEMs wanting to make a profit, the PGA and TV rights revenue, purses, etc. If there was no money in it pros wouldn't be playing, OEM's wouldn't be manufacturing, and TV would not be interested. Where DOES the money come from? Certainly not the USGA. It comes from me, and you, and every other recreational golfer out there.

[duffer987]

So which of these two do you want?

You complain about the ruling bodies considering the elite golfers over the general recreational golfer and then complain about what are elite amateurs to do if there is bifurcation.

It is simple: recreational ball and 'professional/elite' ball or however it is characterized. And then yes, it is as simple as baseball.