What's coming next from the USGA and R&A...

[mahonie]

18 hours ago, storm319 said:

 

Agreed. Interestingly enough, there would have likely been less pot stirring had Wolff won even though he had the same driving average with less fairways hit. 

Wolff plays with aluminium bats right?

[mahonie]

18 hours ago, storm319 said:

 

First, no one is regularly driving the ball 400 yards at the moment and there is little evidence to support of that being a possibility in the future (if anything, average distance gains on tour have flattened since the last major regulation of club size in 2003). 

 

I agree with the section above in bold, however disagree that a rollback of the golf ball will reduce that incentive. If anything, a rollback of the ball with everything else remaining static will result in even more emphasis placed on maximizing driving distance in order to make up the loss. Using distance (either via course increases or regulatory reductions) to combat distance will not solve this perceived problem (Erin Hills was a prime example of this, open course with only length as a defense and we saw some of the longest average drives in US Open history, all it did was challenge the elite to hit it further). 

 

 

‘Rolling back the ball’ is a bit of a misconception if you think about it because the focus is on the distance the Pro V1 and it’s ilk travel and not on the level of control it gives you on mishits at driver swing speeds due to its low spin characteristics at higher velocity impacts. Make the Pro V1 as uncontrollable as a balata at driver swing speeds on mishits...I’m sure the science is there to do that. Make the driver clubhead 30% smaller to add a bit more spice to the ball control recipe.

 

If you are a decent player and not mishitting a great deal, what’s the issue?

[Mudguard]

16 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Everyone brings up baseball and aluminium bats - but baseball has a very clear delineation that golf does not have. Pro and Elite ams play lots of club golf. 

 

 

 

Easy, as soon as you play for money you have to use a tour ball (IE reduced compression). I don't see the big deal, plenty of things change when you do something professionally. 

I see a slow ball purely to keep older courses in Major rotations, it doesn't neutralize the big hitter any more than the short hitter. It would be much more elegant than equipment changes which realistically have been fixed since, 2005/6 or whenever 460cc was decided. Didn't tennis make the balls fluffier a few years ago to slow it down? Javelin has something done so they don't throw them out of stadiums. Baseball has wooden bats. I'm sure there are more. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Bifurcate! 

 

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

Easy, as soon as you play for money you have to use a tour ball (IE reduced compression). I don't see the big deal, plenty of things change when you do something professionally. 

So an amateur playing in the US Open, in the Masters, who is entered as an amateur, he gets to play the "hot" ball, but the rest of the field is using the "slow" ball.  Two different golf ball requirements in the same event.   Is that what you're really suggesting?

[Mudguard]

7 minutes ago, davep043 said:

So an amateur playing in the US Open, in the Masters, who is entered as an amateur, he gets to play the "hot" ball, but the rest of the field is using the "slow" ball.  Two different golf ball requirements in the same event.   Is that what you're really suggesting?

I should rephrase that. As soon as you play in a professional event. 

It's like shorts, fine when you're an amateur but you're in pants once you're in a pro event. 

[Shilgy]

49 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

I should rephrase that. As soon as you play in a professional event. 

It's like shorts, fine when you're an amateur but you're in pants once you're in a pro event. 

So the hot shot amateur-thinkSpieth a few years back- has a couple choices. Either play the pro ball all the time...and be at a disadvantage in amateur events....or switch back and forth depending on what level he is playing at that week? Having to switch week to week is a massive disadvantage on both ends. Of course we are only talking the top 0.001% of the top 0.001% here but hey...if all the USGA cares about is the optics of the top 0.001% and the top 0.00001% overall(is that the correct math lol)  and not the rest of those playing golf in the world they should go for it.

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

So the hot shot amateur-thinkSpieth a few years back- has a couple choices. Either play the pro ball all the time...and be at a disadvantage in amateur events....or switch back and forth depending on what level he is playing at that week? Having to switch week to week is a massive disadvantage on both ends. Of course we are only talking the top 0.001% of the top 0.001% here but hey...if all the USGA cares about is the optics of the top 0.001% and the top 0.00001% overall(is that the correct math lol)  and not the rest of those playing golf in the world they should go for it.

I don't see the problem of switching.  They go from playing in 90* to playing in 55*; the ball behaves very differently.  They adjust.  Or one week they play at sea level, and a week later they are playing at Mexico City.  They adjust.  

And perhaps in the short game, there won't be much difference between the pro ball and the am ball.  WE just don't know at this point.

[Mudguard]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

So the hot shot amateur-thinkSpieth a few years back- has a couple choices. Either play the pro ball all the time...and be at a disadvantage in amateur events....or switch back and forth depending on what level he is playing at that week? 

As you've pointed out, this would effect so few people. The reality is the might mandate the same ball for high level amateur events (like we have for the groove rule) but honestly I think if someone was contemplating turning pro, they'd start using the ball as soon as possible. How does baseball work with the bats? Do amateurs use wooden bats?

Again, this is purely to preserve old course layouts. If distance is an issue. It's not for me! And top level amateurs are not likely to playing pro events every week, I would say as they get close, start using the ball for all non competition rounds, you'd hardly rock up to the US amateur and use the short ball if you didn't have to. But if you're playing in your club's Saturday haggle you may as well use the short ball. 

[Golf10]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

So the hot shot amateur-thinkSpieth a few years back- has a couple choices. Either play the pro ball all the time...and be at a disadvantage in amateur events....or switch back and forth depending on what level he is playing at that week? Having to switch week to week is a massive disadvantage on both ends. Of course we are only talking the top 0.001% of the top 0.001% here but hey...if all the USGA cares about is the optics of the top 0.001% and the top 0.00001% overall(is that the correct math lol)  and not the rest of those playing golf in the world they should go for it.

 

It's not that hard.  

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, Golf10 said:

 

It's not that hard.  

No it's not, it's just stupid, IMO.

I've been playing for over 50 years and now we need to go backwards? Because a relative handful play the game in a manner that some blue blazers don't like? 

 

 

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, Mudguard said:

 

Easy, as soon as you play for money you have to use a tour ball (IE reduced compression). I don't see the big deal, plenty of things change when you do something professionally. 

I see a slow ball purely to keep older courses in Major rotations, it doesn't neutralize the big hitter any more than the short hitter. It would be much more elegant than equipment changes which realistically have been fixed since, 2005/6 or whenever 460cc was decided. Didn't tennis make the balls fluffier a few years ago to slow it down? Javelin has something done so they don't throw them out of stadiums. Baseball has wooden bats. I'm sure there are more. 

So Amateurs in the US open, Masters and other Pro events get to play any ball they want as they don't play for the purse? 

 

Edit*** is see you are now saying any pro events. So what about the local Pro-Am with club pros who play for a few thousand bucks?

Edited October 1, 2020 by 2bGood

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

As you've pointed out, this would effect so few people. The reality is the might mandate the same ball for high level amateur events (like we have for the groove rule) but honestly I think if someone was contemplating turning pro, they'd start using the ball as soon as possible. How does baseball work with the bats? Do amateurs use wooden bats?

Again, this is purely to preserve old course layouts. If distance is an issue. It's not for me! And top level amateurs are not likely to playing pro events every week, I would say as they get close, start using the ball for all non competition rounds, you'd hardly rock up to the US amateur and use the short ball if you didn't have to. But if you're playing in your club's Saturday haggle you may as well use the short ball. 

 

I think you forget that there are way more pro events then just the PGA tour. Just about every major city has 'pro' events with small purses. High level am's play in them all the time in order to get some competition. This would effect far more players than people appreciate.

Edited October 1, 2020 by 2bGood

[rafal]

Bifurcating the ball would destroy some of the most profitable patents and IPs in golf.  I don't think Titleist is just going to let them make PV1 go sideways for either pro's or am's.  It's absolutely a nightmare to bifurcate anything for the golf industry.  If they restrict, they gotta restrict across the board.

[storm319]

1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

As you've pointed out, this would effect so few people. The reality is the might mandate the same ball for high level amateur events (like we have for the groove rule) but honestly I think if someone was contemplating turning pro, they'd start using the ball as soon as possible. How does baseball work with the bats? Do amateurs use wooden bats?

Again, this is purely to preserve old course layouts. If distance is an issue. It's not for me! And top level amateurs are not likely to playing pro events every week, I would say as they get close, start using the ball for all non competition rounds, you'd hardly rock up to the US amateur and use the short ball if you didn't have to. But if you're playing in your club's Saturday haggle you may as well use the short ball. 

Most of these courses only realistically get played at that level once every couple of decades. So you want to go through all of this over a handful of courses that don’t even regularly host an event? (aside from Augusta)

[storm319]

12 minutes ago, rafal said:

Bifurcating the ball would destroy some of the most profitable patents and IPs in golf.  I don't think Titleist is just going to let them make PV1 go sideways for either pro's or am's.  It's absolutely a nightmare to bifurcate anything for the golf industry.  If they restrict, they gotta restrict across the board.

Likely more about the potential sales impact of an industry reset than it is about IP. Hence the reason that Bridgestone (#4 in ball sales) favors a rollback while Titleist (#1) does not.

[OrangeGravy]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So the hot shot amateur-thinkSpieth a few years back- has a couple choices. Either play the pro ball all the time...and be at a disadvantage in amateur events....or switch back and forth depending on what level he is playing at that week? Having to switch week to week is a massive disadvantage on both ends. Of course we are only talking the top 0.001% of the top 0.001% here but hey...if all the USGA cares about is the optics of the top 0.001% and the top 0.00001% overall(is that the correct math lol)  and not the rest of those playing golf in the world they should go for it.

I call BS on that. All they have to do is sit down with their coach for a few Trackman sessions to suss out the yardage differences between the 2 balls and they're good to go. No different than what they have to do now when dealing with climate or elevation affects for a specific tournament. And yes, Amateurs at that level will have access to those things just like they do now as well as a lot equipment perks that us mortals don't. There is no good reason against bifurcation. 

 

BTW, I'll ask you Shilgy, but this is for anyone that holds the stance that pro-rollbackers are just resistant to the changes that the modern game is producing. How is that different than anti-bifurcation advocates being resistant to the changes that the modern game is producing? 

[OrangeGravy]

2 hours ago, Mudguard said:

As you've pointed out, this would effect so few people. The reality is the might mandate the same ball for high level amateur events (like we have for the groove rule) but honestly I think if someone was contemplating turning pro, they'd start using the ball as soon as possible. How does baseball work with the bats? Do amateurs use wooden bats?

Again, this is purely to preserve old course layouts. If distance is an issue. It's not for me! And top level amateurs are not likely to playing pro events every week, I would say as they get close, start using the ball for all non competition rounds, you'd hardly rock up to the US amateur and use the short ball if you didn't have to. But if you're playing in your club's Saturday haggle you may as well use the short ball. 

yes they do use wooden bats in practice and in the summer play in wooden bat tournaments starting in High School or even younger in some cases. Aluminum for all sanctioned "school ball" games through college, but players are free to use wood in those games if they so choose. 

[Golf10]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

No it's not, it's just stupid, IMO.

I've been playing for over 50 years and now we need to go backwards? Because a relative handful play the game in a manner that some blue blazers don't like? 

 

 

 

If you're not on tour you have nothing to worry about.

[2bGood]

11 hours ago, Golf10 said:

 

If you're not on tour you have nothing to worry about.

 You assume the rules will bifurcated. I think this is far from being decided.

Edited October 1, 2020 by 2bGood

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, OrangeGravy said:

I call BS on that. All they have to do is sit down with their coach for a few Trackman sessions to suss out the yardage differences between the 2 balls and they're good to go. No different than what they have to do now when dealing with climate or elevation affects for a specific tournament. And yes, Amateurs at that level will have access to those things just like they do now as well as a lot equipment perks that us mortals don't. There is no good reason against bifurcation. 

 

BTW, I'll ask you Shilgy, but this is for anyone that holds the stance that pro-rollbackers are just resistant to the changes that the modern game is producing. How is that different than anti-bifurcation advocates being resistant to the changes that the modern game is producing? 

If it only it was that easy. Changing balls takes some time. You should note that it plays into the strategy for Ryder and Presidents cup alternate shot paring as playing a different ball has more issue than just distance. 

 

I am a mere mortal and will not switch back and forth from one ball to the next/

Edited October 1, 2020 by 2bGood

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, OrangeGravy said:

I call BS on that. All they have to do is sit down with their coach for a few Trackman sessions to suss out the yardage differences between the 2 balls and they're good to go. No different than what they have to do now when dealing with climate or elevation affects for a specific tournament. And yes, Amateurs at that level will have access to those things just like they do now as well as a lot equipment perks that us mortals don't. There is no good reason against bifurcation. 

 

BTW, I'll ask you Shilgy, but this is for anyone that holds the stance that pro-rollbackers are just resistant to the changes that the modern game is producing. How is that different than anti-bifurcation advocates being resistant to the changes that the modern game is producing? 

Probably is equal opposites off that makes any sense.

Funny thing though...I posted that and everyone is jumping on the "they can figure their yardages out" aspect while everything I have ever heard from proud is house difficult it is to change balls from the short game aspect. Which of what I was referring to. Everyone is so going up on distance though they don't see it. And short game play has changed as much in the last 50 as the long game. The greens are so much faster and firmer than in the past and they are playing with a ball that spins less. 

[Golf10]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

 You assume the rule will bifurcated. I think this far from being decided.

 

I will say as someone who hits it 300 yards plus regularly that I'm all for the rollback.  I can't wait to play courses as they were designed again.  Plus faster rounds at lower cost are always a benefit.

[Mudguard]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 You assume the rule will bifurcated. I think this far from being decided.

 

I'm suggesting that it would be bifurcated. All us weekend warriors will still buy Pro V's. It will just evolve as it always has. In my perfect world pros would use a Pro V, it's just an actual Tour Only version at some low compression. As to the point about amateurs contesting pro events, then it's simple, the use the Tour ball if they want to contest it. If it's something like Pebble where there are handicaps then amateurs can use the normal ball. 

That way no other equipment has to change. Amateurs aren't affected like the putter and groove rule. 

[mahonie]

6 hours ago, Shilgy said:

No it's not, it's just stupid, IMO.

I've been playing for over 50 years and now we need to go backwards? Because a relative handful play the game in a manner that some blue blazers don't like? 

 

 

It didn’t affect you guys over there, but I distinctly remember losing 25 yards off my drives when the smaller British ball was outlawed in 1990. Those were the rules we and we just accepted it.

 

The American ball really was that much shorter.

[gvogel]

4 hours ago, mahonie said:

It didn’t affect you guys over there, but I distinctly remember losing 25 yards off my drives when the smaller British ball was outlawed in 1990. Those were the rules we and we just accepted it.

 

The American ball really was that much shorter.

We played in Scotland in the late 1970's and early 1980's and brought the smaller Titleist balls back home (Red Titleist, black number).  The small ball went farther into the wind, but the American ball went farther downwind.  And i doubt the difference was 25 yards.

[mahonie]

2 hours ago, gvogel said:

We played in Scotland in the late 1970's and early 1980's and brought the smaller Titleist balls back home (Red Titleist, black number).  The small ball went farther into the wind, but the American ball went farther downwind.  And i doubt the difference was 25 yards.

With lower trajectory and tight heathland grass helping run out, I can assure you it was 25 yards.

 

I will say that the switch to the US ball wasn’t difficult. For one thing, it was so much easier to play with and control. The size differential doesn’t seem like much but after playing 1.62” all my life, the 1.68” felt like hitting a basketball after hitting a tennis ball if that makes sense.

 

Losing distance and adding control? 1.72” ball on its way?

[mahonie]

13 hours ago, rafal said:

Bifurcating the ball would destroy some of the most profitable patents and IPs in golf.  I don't think Titleist is just going to let them make PV1 go sideways for either pro's or am's.  It's absolutely a nightmare to bifurcate anything for the golf industry.  If they restrict, they gotta restrict across the board.

That’s quite funny when Titleist shelled out a load to Callaway and Bridgestone for nicking their patents to make the Pro V1 in the first place.

[bladehunter]

I’m going to settle this once and for all.   I’ll go all graphite - single length with 4 hybrids at the top.  And start working on a 130 mph driver swing . 
 

100 % guarantee that my luck dictates a complete rollback inside of 6 months.  Anybody want to bet ? ( sarcasm ) 

[mahonie]

11 hours ago, 2bGood said:

If it only it was that easy. Changing balls takes some time. You should note that it plays into the strategy for Ryder and Presidents cup alternate shot paring as playing a different ball has more issue than just distance. 

 

I am a mere mortal and will not switch back and forth from one ball to the next/

 

Faldo sent Monty a large box of his balls before a Ryder cup (all stamped ‘FALDO’) and told him to practice like mad as that was the ball he was going to be playing in the foursomes. Monty was too scared to practice with them in case he lost them around Wentworth.

 

As for changing balls, I play the first ball I put my hand on when delving into the darker recesses of the ball pocket in my bag. Unless it’s a Titleist Velocity or Pinnacle, which I usually throw back into the trees if I find one (best place for them), I’ll play pretty much anything.

 

That might mean that I play 3 different balls on one hole if I’m being a little wayward 😂😳