eBay/Paypal deal challenged by buyer ?

[nsxguy]

So last Sunday I sold a number of my old putters.

 

1 deal went like this and I wonder if any of you have had this experience and if so, what the final result was.

 

1) High bidder wanted to cancel.

 

2) Sent "2nd Chance" offers to the 2 next highest bidders.

 

3) One accepts.

 

4) He attempts then to cancel the order BUT immediately sends me a message saying he did it (the cancel) by mistake and please do NOT cancel)

 

5) He pays shortly thereafter.

 

6) I ship the club via eBay to his confirmed address.

 

7) Tracking shows delivered.

 

8- Just yesterday I get a Paypal email  "We are writing to let you know one of your buyers opened a case for this transaction. The buyer stated that they did not authorize this purchase." followed by a list of the transaction details. Also "Our records show tracking information is available for this transaction. We will review this as soon as possible."

So apparently they're looking into this. Note there is nothing in Paypal's email about him actually receiving the item and/or whether he's willing to return it but it does appear to be a fairly regular "form" email from Paypal so,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Only thing I'm wondering is why he didn't "challenge", or simply try to return, via eBay rather than Paypal

Anybody had this same thing happen ? Outcome ?

Thanks

 

 

[golfinbrad]

Seems like bidders opting is becoming more common.  I have ran into this.  Very frustrating.  I had a guy run up a wedge then ask me to give him a discount.  I don't get how people think.  The opening a case after delivery is really sad.  Paypal usually does what is right.  I have read on here that the new trend is to request a return of the item then ship an empty box back.  Scary world.  Good luck.  Hopefully they will side with you.

[SoCalTitleist]

I have been getting more people trying to make side deals and offers lately .

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

Yes, and I haven’t dealt with eBay since. But, I kept all communication  between us to PayPal. 

 

The buyer won the auction. He paid for the item. I shipped his item out the next day. I provide tracking immediately after. 

 

2 days after he filed a claim for unauthorized transaction. I message him through eBay and sent him a personal email that I got off of PayPal. I didn’t get a response back and I stated I’m not refunding his money. I clearly stated no returns in the auction. 
 

I provided all our messages from before. And also the auction for PayPal.  PayPal sided with me. Case was closed. 

[Valtiel]

It almost seems like he tried to create some sort of paper trail to maybe create the narrative the he tried to cancel but that you refused the cancelation? I dunno, the whole thing seems fishy and reads like someone trying to play the system somehow. The more layers you add to the transaction (initial winner cancelation, second chance offer, second chance offer accept + request to cancel + request to ignore cancel request etc etc) the more eBay's customer support process is likely to break down and either erroneously side with the buyer or create enough of a headache that the seller gives up trying to fight it. 

Good luck, and stay on top of customer support if starts going sideways. 

[MaddMaxx]

Ebay is broken. They are so wrapped up in protecting the buyer a seller has no protection.

Think about it; buyers have the cash that makes ebay work. No cash=no ebay.

 

I recently sold an item, not golf related. Value was close to $1000. Shipping was over $100.

Buyer started a return using the "item not as described" check box. It was exactly as described but seller cant dispute a return. Return was going to cost me over $100 so I had to eat a $200 loss.

 

Buyer wanted me to offer a cash settlement and he would keep the item. I wasnt going to be blackmailed so I created a Fedex account and sent him a return label. He canceled the return.

[clinkinfo]

14 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

Yes, and I haven’t dealt with eBay since. But, I kept all communication  between us to PayPal. 

 

The buyer won the auction. He paid for the item. I shipped his item out the next day. I provide tracking immediately after. 

 

2 days after he filed a claim for unauthorized transaction. I message him through eBay and sent him a personal email that I got off of PayPal. I didn’t get a response back and I stated I’m not refunding his money. I clearly stated no returns in the auction. 
 

I provided all our messages from before. And also the auction for PayPal.  PayPal sided with me. Case was closed. 

 

In eBay it makes no difference if you say “no returns”in the auction, the buyer will win an eBay case and you will have to take it back.  I had a guy play a set of irons for 28 days and then return them as “defective”.  I fought it, and I lost.... even thought the eBay rep told me “we know what happened, it’s just eBay policy”.  They buyer ALWAYS wins the case in eBay and you ALWAYS have to take it back no matter what terminology you put in your auction.  Ebay decides if you take returns, not you.  The reason this is important to understand is, you are wasting your time fighting cases as the seller, you’d be better off accepting the return in almost all cases.  Glad PayPal did the right thing, but if there was an eBay case opened, you would have had to take the return.
 

 

[clinkinfo]

3 hours ago, MaddMaxx said:

Ebay is broken. They are so wrapped up in protecting the buyer a seller has no protection.

Think about it; buyers have the cash that makes ebay work. No cash=no ebay.

 

I recently sold an item, not golf related. Value was close to $1000. Shipping was over $100.

Buyer started a return using the "item not as described" check box. It was exactly as described but seller cant dispute a return. Return was going to cost me over $100 so I had to eat a $200 loss.

 

Buyer wanted me to offer a cash settlement and he would keep the item. I wasnt going to be blackmailed so I created a Fedex account and sent him a return label. He canceled the return.

 

yep....probably 8 out of 10 people are using buyer protection as a tool to negotiate a partial refund

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

2 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

In eBay it makes no difference if you say “no returns”in the auction, the buyer will win an eBay case and you will have to take it back.  I had a guy play a set of irons for 28 days and then return them as “defective”.  I fought it, and I lost.... even thought the eBay rep told me “we know what happened, it’s just eBay policy”.  They buyer ALWAYS wins the case in eBay and you ALWAYS have to take it back no matter what terminology you put in your auction.  Ebay decides if you take returns, not you.  The reason this is important to understand is, you are wasting your time fighting cases as the seller, you’d be better off accepting the return in almost all cases.  Glad PayPal did the right thing, but if there was an eBay case opened, you would have had to take the return.
 

 

That’s great info. Thank you, I’m done with Ebay. 

[clinkinfo]

Just now, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

That’s great info. Thank you, I’m done with Ebay. 

 

unfortunately, on the other hand,  it’s tough to be done with eBay because they do have the largest buying pool and the items will bid up in most cases to the maximum value. I think you just need to understand they are not a perfect marketplace and learn to work within the limitations.  One is, always accept the return because you’re either being blackmailed for a partial refund or you’re going to be forced to accept it by eBay 2 weeks later anyway!

[nsxguy]

29 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

yep....probably 8 out of 10 people are using buyer protection as a tool to negotiate a partial refund

 

8 out of 10 ? I don't think so; not even close.

 

I have 300+ transaction over 15 years or so and have never used it as a buyer and the number of times a buyer (from me) has complained and tried to get a few bucks off AFTER the sale I can count on one hand (maybe 1 finger).

 

Now I should note that's different from "Hey, your ad said head cover and you didn't send one" and the seller offering $15 or so to make it up.

 

And I wonder what eBay would do if it was a blatant act on the buyer's part ? e.g. the seller sends you a message that says/infers something like "The item is fine but if you don't refund me $25 I'm returning it".

 

 

[SoCalTitleist]

Taxes are killing eBay 

[nsxguy]

Just now, SoCalTitleist said:

Taxes are killing eBay 

 

Not sure why that would be. The buyer would have to pay taxes anyway. Both buyers AND sellers should be thrilled that eBay is handling sales tax for both parties. If SELLERS had to collect it, account for it, and pay it to the various states, THAT would be a disaster.

 

The way for buyers to look at it is they've gotten away with not paying sales tax for all these years.

[clinkinfo]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

8 out of 10 ? I don't think so; not even close.

 

I have 300+ transaction over 15 years or so and have never used it as a buyer and the number of times a buyer (from me) has complained and tried to get a few bucks off AFTER the sale I can count on one hand (maybe 1 finger).

 

Now I should note that's different from "Hey, your ad said head cover and you didn't send one" and the seller offering $15 or so to make it up.

 

And I wonder what eBay would do if it was a blatant act on the buyer's part ? e.g. the seller sends you a message that says/infers something like "The item is fine but if you don't refund me $25 I'm returning it".

 

 

 

 

I have 20 years and 1500+ transactions, but I think you misunderstood.  I’m not saying 8 out of 10 BUYERS are opening disputes.  I’m saying of the disputes that get opened, about 8 out of 10 are looking for discounts as the resolution lately.  
 

But I admit, I’m guessing. So this year I think I’ve had 2 disputes opened, both wanted partial refunds.   I granted one because I couldn’t tell if it was legit or not, and insisted the other one return the item (because I knew they were lying).  *Poof* the second issue went away.  So I don’t have a full 10 disputes to even base my 8 estimate on this year, it was just a guess.  I’m actually running 2 for 2 for partial refund requests this year.  But this is a huge discussion item over on the eBay forums, so I’m pretty confident in my guess, it’s definitely how some buyers try and use the protection program.  

Edited September 28, 2020 by clinkinfo

[clinkinfo]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Not sure why that would be. The buyer would have to pay taxes anyway. Both buyers AND sellers should be thrilled that eBay is handling sales tax for both parties. If SELLERS had to collect it, account for it, and pay it to the various states, THAT would be a disaster.

 

The way for buyers to look at it is they've gotten away with not paying sales tax for all these years.

this is a whole different discussion, but why would we be thrilled that eBay is collecting sales tax?  There are lots of sellers who are not running companies.  You know, like a yard sale on a Sunday.  You want yard sales to start collecting tax too?

 

1. You don’t have sales tax collected on Craigslist or any other person to person transaction (unless it’s something that needs to be registered)

2. The original purchaser already paid sales tax on a new item.  Charging sales tax again from a private seller not running a business is what most people consider double dipping by the state. The same item has sales tax paid for it multiple times.  You might be fine with that, but I’m not.  
 

if you’re running a company on eBay, go nuts and make sales tax mandatory.  If I’m an individual selling used crap out of my basement, leave us alone OR go tax everyone on Craigslist, yard sales, bake sales......everyone.  Don’t be hypocritical 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, clinkinfo said:

this is a whole different discussion, but why would we be thrilled that eBay is collecting sales tax?  There are lots of sellers who are not running companies.  You know, like a yard sale on a Sunday.  You want yard sales to start collecting tax too?

 

1. You don’t have sales tax collected on Craigslist or any other person to person transaction (unless it’s something that needs to be registered)

2. The original purchaser already paid sales tax on a new item.  Charging sales tax again from a private seller not running a business is what most people consider double dipping by the state. The same item has sales tax paid for it multiple times.  You might be fine with that, but I’m not.  
 

if you’re running a company on eBay, go nuts and make sales tax mandatory.  If I’m an individual selling used crap out of my basement, leave us alone OR go tax everyone on Craigslist, yard sales, bake sales......everyone.  Don’t be hypocritical 

 

I'm sure the sales tax laws vary from state to state but it is a sales tax on SALES. Whether an item is new or used matters.

 

Golf stores sell used clubs,,,,,,,,, and collect sales tax.

 

Goodwill stores sell all sorts of used stuff,,,,,, and collects sales tax. Used furniture stores. And the list goes on.

 

Person-to-person ? There probably is some basis for collecting sales tax, most just don't know it. And being it's an occasional transaction the state doesn't usually care.

 

Also I believe there's something about usage as well. If you bought the item to resell there's probably sales tax due. If you bought it for personal use, such as our golf clubs, no tax. i.e. you're not a business.

 

 

 

[clinkinfo]

36 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'm sure the sales tax laws vary from state to state but it is a sales tax on SALES. Whether an item is new or used matters.

 

Golf stores sell used clubs,,,,,,,,, and collect sales tax.

 

Goodwill stores sell all sorts of used stuff,,,,,, and collects sales tax. Used furniture stores. And the list goes on.

 

Person-to-person ? There probably is some basis for collecting sales tax, most just don't know it. And being it's an occasional transaction the state doesn't usually care.

 

Also I believe there's something about usage as well. If you bought the item to resell there's probably sales tax due. If you bought it for personal use, such as our golf clubs, no tax. i.e. you're not a business.

 

 

 

 

So here’s the silly part, I had to look it up, but my states wording is:

 

”Most garage sales are not subject to the sales tax registration requirements and the sellers are usually not required to collect sales tax.....”

 

so if I sell my driver at my garage sale, no tax collection and submission required.   If I (the same individual) sell my driver on eBay, sales tax collection is now required.

 

as individuals, many of us don’t see the difference when we are disposing of our personal property.  That was part of why many of us fought mandatory collection  On eBay for years .

Edited September 28, 2020 by clinkinfo

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

So here’s the silly part, I had to look it up, but my states wording is:

 

”Most garage sales are not subject to the sales tax registration requirements and the sellers are usually not required to collect sales tax.....”

 

so if I sell my driver at my garage sale, no tax collection and submission required.   If I (the same individual) sells my driver on eBay, sales tax collection is now required.

 

as individuals, many of us don’t see the difference when we are disposing of our personal property.

 

Yeah, I get that, but again those are "occasional" sales of items not originally purchased for resale. And yes, that's the case on eBay for the vast majority of us.

 

I guess the difference is eBay is an auction site and IS a business site.

 

I seem to remember some years ago stories about some day requiring sales tax to be collected on internet sales. Guess that day's here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[clinkinfo]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

Yeah, I get that, but again those are "occasional" sales of items not originally purchased for resale. And yes, that's the case on eBay for the vast majority of us.

 

I guess the difference is eBay is an auction site and IS a business site.

 

I seem to remember some years ago stories about some day requiring sales tax to be collected on internet sales. Guess that day's here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

Those days are here because we didn’t fight hard enough.  eBay kept this from happening multiple times over several years,   But eventually lost.  

and the argument was exactly along these lines , what is eBay?  A business or an intermediary?
 

For most individuals, it’s Essentially a garage sale alternative.  No tax required by law...except now there is.

[JAM01]

Bought 2 wedges, seller shipped them. Then claimed they were lost, when they never showed up. Shipped “them” again. Only one in the box that eventually showed up. I opened and lost the case since tracking showed delivered. 

[Buzzkill]

23 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

Yes, and I haven’t dealt with eBay since. But, I kept all communication  between us to PayPal. 

 

The buyer won the auction. He paid for the item. I shipped his item out the next day. I provide tracking immediately after. 

 

2 days after he filed a claim for unauthorized transaction. I message him through eBay and sent him a personal email that I got off of PayPal. I didn’t get a response back and I stated I’m not refunding his money. I clearly stated no returns in the auction. 
 

I provided all our messages from before. And also the auction for PayPal.  PayPal sided with me. Case was closed. 

Great news BUT folks need to know here that your “no returns” statement doesn’t really weigh much if challenged.

[nsxguy]

UPDATE

 

So today I get an email from Paypal telling me they're waiting for a response from me.

 

Surprised I missed their request in the original email but I hit the "RESPOND" button and give them the rather simple details I listed in the original post.

 

I then go to their original email which a) does not HAVE a "Respond" button/link in it and b) says "Our records show tracking information is available for this transaction. We will review this as soon as possible".

 

So, logically(?) I am waiting for their review and subsequent communication(s), no ?

 

So today I get an email telling me I have until Oct 6 to respond. Wait, what ?

 

Anyway, I respond on their site with the details and maybe 15 minutes later I get another email from them that the case has been decided in my favor and we're done.

 

It also says my account will be credited with the amount of the sale - meanwhile they never took the amount of the sale OFF of my account so of course there's (correctly) no credit for the amount added there now (maybe later ? ).

 

Just more evidence of how amateurish such huge sites can actually be. Paypal doesn't even give you a proper accounting of debits and credits as banks do. Sure they show +this amount and -that amount but they don't give you a running total - so I guess we take their word for the fact that our balance is correct.

 

Same thing wit da Bay. Incredibly amateurish presentation for such a large company in business for so long.

 

So I guess I'm good but I can't help thinking somehow I'll be hearing about this case again,,,,,,,,

 

 

[SwingBlues]

Its crap like this that I have really capped my selling on FleaBay. I'd rather keep the damn club than lose it all in some shipping/return scam.

[bladehunter]

On 9/27/2020 at 11:02 AM, nsxguy said:

So last Sunday I sold a number of my old putters.

 

1 deal went like this and I wonder if any of you have had this experience and if so, what the final result was.

 

1) High bidder wanted to cancel.

 

2) Sent "2nd Chance" offers to the 2 next highest bidders.

 

3) One accepts.

 

4) He attempts then to cancel the order BUT immediately sends me a message saying he did it (the cancel) by mistake and please do NOT cancel)

 

5) He pays shortly thereafter.

 

6) I ship the club via eBay to his confirmed address.

 

7) Tracking shows delivered.

 

8- Just yesterday I get a Paypal email  "We are writing to let you know one of your buyers opened a case for this transaction. The buyer stated that they did not authorize this purchase." followed by a list of the transaction details. Also "Our records show tracking information is available for this transaction. We will review this as soon as possible."

So apparently they're looking into this. Note there is nothing in Paypal's email about him actually receiving the item and/or whether he's willing to return it but it does appear to be a fairly regular "form" email from Paypal so,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Only thing I'm wondering is why he didn't "challenge", or simply try to return, via eBay rather than Paypal

Anybody had this same thing happen ? Outcome ?

Thanks

 

 

True story.  I sold a classic car on eBay to a guy in Texas.  Shipped it to him.  Paid with PayPal. He receives it and immediately gripes.  Was a $3500 car.   Picking out small things.   Etc.  long story short. PayPal gave him his money back.   And he kept the car.  I canceled PayPal and eBay that day.  
 

I had attorney on retainer and was advised I’d lose money anyway I turned.  The only way to recoup any was to let it be and right it off as loss.   I hate PayPal.  Period.  

[brew4eagle]

On 10/10/2020 at 12:21 PM, bladehunter said:

True story.  I sold a classic car on eBay to a guy in Texas.  Shipped it to him.  Paid with PayPal. He receives it and immediately gripes.  Was a $3500 car.   Picking out small things.   Etc.  long story short. PayPal gave him his money back.   And he kept the car.  I canceled PayPal and eBay that day.  
 

I had attorney on retainer and was advised I’d lose money anyway I turned.  The only way to recoup any was to let it be and right it off as loss.   I hate PayPal.  Period.  

That's insane.  Could you at least report it as stolen?

[SubaruWRX]

On 10/10/2020 at 9:21 AM, bladehunter said:

True story.  I sold a classic car on eBay to a guy in Texas.  Shipped it to him.  Paid with PayPal. He receives it and immediately gripes.  Was a $3500 car.   Picking out small things.   Etc.  long story short. PayPal gave him his money back.   And he kept the car.  I canceled PayPal and eBay that day.  
 

I had attorney on retainer and was advised I’d lose money anyway I turned.  The only way to recoup any was to let it be and right it off as loss.   I hate PayPal.  Period.  

You need to find a friend in his city (or a wrx’er), and have them swing by every few months. Once he restores it or fixes it up, jump on a plane and stop by with law enforcement to get your vehicle back. 

[nsxguy]

On 10/10/2020 at 12:21 PM, bladehunter said:

True story.  I sold a classic car on eBay to a guy in Texas.  Shipped it to him.  Paid with PayPal. He receives it and immediately gripes.  Was a $3500 car.   Picking out small things.   Etc.  long story short. PayPal gave him his money back.   And he kept the car.  I canceled PayPal and eBay that day.  
 

I had attorney on retainer and was advised I’d lose money anyway I turned.  The only way to recoup any was to let it be and right it off as loss.   I hate PayPal.  Period.  

 

Hard to believe you couldn't sue the guy in Small Claims Court and win easily.

 

You have/had all the proof necessary to at the very least get the car back.

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Hard to believe you couldn't sue the guy in Small Claims Court and win easily.

 

You have/had all the proof necessary to at the very least get the car back.

Oh for sure.   He didn’t even try to hold it.  I could have sent for it.  But $2k transport fee made it a non starter.  $2k more into a $3500 car I paid $3k for is just  good money after bad. Leaving it there at least let me write off the full $3500.  
 

my point was that PayPal heavily leans toward the buyer. No matter what.  Crooked organization in my opinion.  Them and credit card companies should not be allowed to forcibly remove money from your account.  I get pushing you to refund or else no more transactions, but the ability to simply reach in and remove funds shouldn’t  be legal in my opinion.   

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Oh for sure.   He didn’t even try to hold it.  I could have sent for it.  But $2k transport fee made it a non starter.  $2k more into a $3500 car I paid $3k for is just  good money after bad. Leaving it there at least let me write off the full $3500.  
 

my point was that PayPal heavily leans toward the buyer. No matter what.  Crooked organization in my opinion.  Them and credit card companies should not be allowed to forcibly remove money from your account.  I get pushing you to refund or else no more transactions, but the ability to simply reach in and remove funds shouldn’t  be legal in my opinion.   

 

Well, you did say "And he kept the car". Sounds like you tried to get it back and he said "Sue me".

 

But the guy paid $2K for you to ship him the car on top of the $3500 ? Good grief.

 

But you could have flown to Texas for a hundy or 2 and taken a nice leisurely drive back to S.C. Takes what ? Day and a half ? 2 days ?

 

Anywho, PP just decided the case in my (seller's) favor so I guess it depends.

 

But methinks there's a bit more to the story. EBAY is the one supposed to deal with eBay sales when the item is "not as described", not Paypal so I'm not sure why PP was even involved.

 

PP should only get involved with payment type issues

 

 

[Greenie]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

But methinks there's a bit more to the story. EBAY is the one supposed to deal with eBay sales when the item is "not as described", not Paypal so I'm not sure why PP was even involved.

 

PP should only get involved with payment type issues

 

 

You mention that  The buyer stated that they did not authorize this purchase,, To me that would be a disputed charge with PP. Unauthorized use of the PP account to pay for the item. I would definitely think that would be PP and not Ebay. I agree an item not as described would be an Ebay thing.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Greenie