Distance, wins and the Tour, am I way off?

[ThinkingPlus]

39 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

Go watch the Shell's match on Youtube where Hogan plays Snead.  He hits every fairway and every green.  That was his mystique.  He was not a great putter, and it bothered him greatly how important that was too the game.haha.  I remember reading that he thought putts should count for less then a total stroke. 

I don't think Hogan would be as critical of putting today as he was in his prime.  The greens are much better and more predictable.  Just an opinion.

[Dr. Block]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I don't think Hogan would be as critical of putting today as he was in his prime.  The greens are much better and more predictable.  Just an opinion.

I think you're absolutely right.  The punch stroke they had to use back then must have been hell if you were starting to have any issues with your nerves.  

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, doobz said:

 

20 yards tops that if you’re already long because it means you’re putting inside 12 feet for birdie more often! 

Curious minds want to know how 20 yards automatically means that you're putting inside 12 feet.....for birdie more often. your wedge game could totally be off from 80 yards when 100 yards is in your wheel house....Only high handicappers think like that. IMO of course. 

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, 3whacker said:

everybody gets so enamored with  distance off the tee, but where I see the "real distance factor" is with their iron play...when I caddied on mini tour and the old Q school events I realized that the pros were silly long with their irons, they hardly every played a 2-3-4 iron unless it was a monster par 3 or going for it in two on a Par 5....nowadays all these guys are able to hit 7-8 irons 200 yards, there isn't a whole lot of courses that can hold up when you put a scoring iron club in a Pro's hands from that distance...I still remember being on the 18th at the Palmer private where DD hit 5 iron  into the Par 5 to shoot 59...I was looking 3 wood from that plaque and I played to single digits at the time...There isn't a Par 3 on Tour that these guys cant hit with a mid iron or shorter

 

I think it's important to look at the lofts of the clubs involved, not so much the club numbers.  Loft still is the primary determinant of distance for all of us.

 

Specifically when comparing to the past:

People get excited about  BAD hitting a 9i from X distance.  His 9i is 37*.  By comparison, Nicklaus is on record saying he *could* hit an 8i 175 yds, but didn't see the need to.  That puts them a lot closer together than it seems at first glance. 

 

I've also spoken with a former MacGregor rep who claimed to watch Jack hit a 6i from 211 or 221, in response to a crowd reaction for a big hitting amateur in a pro-am.  Take it for what it's worth.  🙂

 

It's one reason I am less excited about any ball rollback.  It was fine when Jack had it in the bag, but now that others do, folks get worked up.

 

Repeating myself:  just cap the driver MOI a lot lower than it is now.  

 

[NRJyzr]

...

 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by NRJyzr
Love that multiple posting thing

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

You sound like the best player in my old club when I first joined. Everybody though of him as an average or maybe even a bit less than average as a putter.

 

Well, for his skill level (he was a "1"), perhaps that was true but the guy hit probably 12-14 greens per round and basically 2 putted almost everything and seemed to never miss a 3-footer.

 

So since he had 32 putts per round "nobody" thought he was a very good putter. Balderdash.

 

You're scratch, right ? So if we guarantee you no more than 2 putts per hole hitting 8 irons and your opponent is scratch as well hitting PW every hole you're going to "own" him ? Hmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,

 

Never understood the Hogan mystique as he was gone before I got interested in golf but was he a poor putter (relatively speaking of course) ? If so I guess I understand his opinion.

Lol. I’m not saying I’m a bad putter.  Anymore.  I’m 100 % better than I was last season due to the rebuild last winter.     But. Putting is this mistress of sorts.   Once in a blue moon you get her cornered and it makes the chase worth it.  But the in between times are hard to take.  I’m currently in a hot or cold pattern.  I’m either 1 putting everything or making nothing and even 3 putting a couple times a round due to aggression on the first putt.  
 

the reason I said what I said was that I’ve tried it.  We have 2 weekends a year where our big Saturday dogfight uses an  auto 2 putt rule after greens are punched.  During those two days a year I’ve hit as many as 17 greens in reg twice and usually will get 14 at least.  The reason is there’s no pressure to hit it tight.  I’ll just hit the green and take par until I see a really good pin to go at.  Plus auto 2 putt birdies when I hit a par 5 green in 2 and you’ll win with an even or 1-2 under round.      Most people don’t realize the pressure that putting puts on everything else.  It can also take pressure off everything else.  
 

so entirely possible to be beaten.  But.  I already know how freeing it is to not have to make putts.  And yes. I’ve tried to trick myself into thinking that way all of the time.  But it doesn’t work.  lol.  One 3 putt and that mindset is done.  
 

I meant for me.  Of course on tour there will be one super putter who will beat you hitting a ton of greens and making pars. 

[bladehunter]

59 minutes ago, doobz said:

 

I have seen all of them in person and being an elite ballstriker doesn't preclude you from being a great putter. 

Never said it was zero sum.  Just that it’s not a given the other direction either.  It takes both.  Period.  

[Dr. Block]

19 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol. I’m not saying I’m a bad putter.  Anymore.  I’m 100 % better than I was last season due to the rebuild last winter.     But. Putting is this mistress of sorts.   Once in a blue moon you get her cornered and it makes the chase worth it.  But the in between times are hard to take.  I’m currently in a hot or cold pattern.  I’m either 1 putting everything or making nothing and even 3 putting a couple times a round due to aggression on the first putt.  
 

the reason I said what I said was that I’ve tried it.  We have 2 weekends a year where our big Saturday dogfight uses an  auto 2 putt rule after greens are punched.  During those two days a year I’ve hit as many as 17 greens in reg twice and usually will get 14 at least.  The reason is there’s no pressure to hit it tight.  I’ll just hit the green and take par until I see a really good pin to go at.  Plus auto 2 putt birdies when I hit a par 5 green in 2 and you’ll win with an even or 1-2 under round.      Most people don’t realize the pressure that putting puts on everything else.  It can also take pressure off everything else.  
 

so entirely possible to be beaten.  But.  I already know how freeing it is to not have to make putts.  And yes. I’ve tried to trick myself into thinking that way all of the time.  But it doesn’t work.  lol.  One 3 putt and that mindset is done.  
 

I meant for me.  Of course on tour there will be one super putter who will beat you hitting a ton of greens and making pars. 

I love watching a pro play his entire round when I get to go in person.  Love it.  I learn so much. I always make it a habit to follow one group for the entire 18. 

 

I've seen many a round well south of par, and one thing that sticks out is that they usually always make a couple big (and often long) putts to save par.  Usually after they've failed to get to some manner of impossibly tucked pin.  Or they've hit a poor tee shot and are in scramble mode.  I always expect to see green-in-reg two putt (with the occasional birdie) laser accurate boredom, but that's rarely the case.  Maybe I'm following the wrong guys.  The only guy I've ever followed who played that game to a T was Furyk.  And he didn't even go that low.  And he is supposed to be one of the better putters.  I think the best players in the world lean on their putting skills quite heavily.  It open's up a substantial level of aggressiveness they can play with. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Dr. Block

[3whacker]

24 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I think it's important to look at the lofts of the clubs involved, not so much the club numbers.  Loft still is the primary determinant of distance for all of us.

 

Specifically when comparing to the past:

People get excited about  BAD hitting a 9i from X distance.  His 9i is 37*.  By comparison, Nicklaus is on record saying he *could* hit an 8i 175 yds, but didn't see the need to.  That puts them a lot closer together than it seems at first glance. 

 

I've also spoken with a former MacGregor rep who claimed to watch Jack hit a 6i from 211 or 221, in response to a crowd reaction for a big hitting amateur in a pro-am.  Take it for what it's worth.  🙂

 

It's one reason I am less excited about any ball rollback.  It was fine when Jack had it in the bag, but now that others do, folks get worked up.

 

Repeating myself:  just cap the driver MOI a lot lower than it is now.  

 

You are spot on, when PM first came out with the Yonex irons he was scary long and then you find out that his lofts were a FULL 4 degrees thru the bag than what WAS the industry standard at the time.. I dont even know what the industry standard is nowadays

[bladehunter]

44 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

I love watching a pro play his entire round when I get to go in person.  Love it.  I learn so much. I always make it a habit to follow one group for the entire 18. 

 

I've seen many a round well south of par, and one thing that sticks out is that they usually always make a couple big (and often long) putts to save par.  Usually after they've failed to get to some manner of impossibly tucked pin.  Or they've hit a poor tee shot and are in scramble mode.  I always expect to see green-in-reg two putt (with the occasional birdie) laser accurate boredom, but that's rarely the case.  Maybe I'm following the wrong guys.  The only guy I've ever followed who played that game to a T was Furyk.  And he didn't even go that low.  And he is supposed to be one of the better putters.  I think the best players in the world lean on their putting skills quite heavily.  It open's up a substantial level of aggressiveness they can play with. 

Oh I agree with you.  They absolutely do. And you’re right.  The par putts mean as much figuratively and literally to the mindset of a round in my opinion.  

[Dr. Block]

17 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Oh I agree with you.  They absolutely do. And you’re right.  The par putts mean as much figuratively and literally to the mindset of a round in my opinion.  

I probably have that opinion because I've spent a lot of time following Phil.  The rounds he can shoot from where he hits the ball leave you scratching your head.  He is the greatest show on turf.

[Fairway14]

19 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Curious minds want to know how 20 yards automatically means that you're putting inside 12 feet.....for birdie more often. your wedge game could totally be off from 80 yards when 100 yards is in your wheel house....Only high handicappers think like that. IMO of course. 

 

Historically, most long drive competitors , if they play rounds of golf at all, shoot 90 or worse.

It's absolutely true that technique things  one does with their swing to produce maximum distance will likely harm the swings for shorter yardage shots.

It's helpful to remember that learning a swing that works well  for all full shots, from driver thru wedge, makes better sense than grooving a swing which is effective only for the longest shafted clubs.

[nsxguy]

19 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Curious minds want to know how 20 yards automatically means that you're putting inside 12 feet.....for birdie more often. your wedge game could totally be off from 80 yards when 100 yards is in your wheel house....Only high handicappers think like that. IMO of course. 

 

The title is talking about Tour Players, yes ?

 

Sans overly difficult spots and short siding oneself, proximity to the hole is king.

 

A Tour player will get closer from 40 yards than from 60, closer from 60 than from 80, etc........

 

And frankly, IMO, so will a 20 handicapper (I play with enough of them in scrambles LOL) and a single digit.

 

I used to play back to a full club into par 5s. After it being suggested to me here on WRX to get (safely) as close to a par 5 as possible, I've "proven" it to my satisfaction - many more 3rd shots closer to the hole and more make-able birdie putts.

[Fairway14]

18 hours ago, Dr. Block said:

I love watching a pro play his entire round when I get to go in person.  Love it.  I learn so much. I always make it a habit to follow one group for the entire 18. 

 

 

 

I do the same thing and (to avoid large galleries) usually follow a twosome or threesome of lesser known names. It's interesting to see the ups and downs of the round of one group. Also, for television I like the pay-per-view "featured pairing" option. For example, a few months ago I paid $4.99 to see every shot played by Tiger and Tom Hoge in the 3rd round of the PGA Championship at Harding Park.

[Fairway14]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

The title is talking about Tour Players, yes ?

 

 

 

Yes, but know that most Tour players could absolutely , if they wanted to, strike longer shots than their average, with any club.

Jack Nicklaus and DL III are two guys who routinely talked about swinging and playing for 80% of their potential distance. My friend played a round of golf with Luke List and asked him about DeChambeau. Luke replied that he could hit driver longer than he does but does not want to lose accuracy and, or, mess up his swing for the rest of the clubs within his bag.

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Yes, but know that most Tour players could absolutely , if they wanted to, strike longer shots than their average, with any club.

Jack Nicklaus and DL III are two guys who routinely talked about swinging and playing for 80% of their potential distance. My friend played a round of golf with Luke List and asked him about DeChambeau. Luke replied that he could hit driver longer than he does but does not want to lose accuracy and, or, mess up his swing for the rest of the clubs within his bag.

 

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Sans overly difficult spots and short siding oneself, proximity to the hole is king.

 

Wouldn't have though I'd need to state it but apparently I must.

 

The above (overly) includes "losing accuracy" and course management - which also includes Jack and Davis playing for "80% of their potential distance".

[Fairway14]

8 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Wouldn't have though I'd need to state it but apparently I must.

 

The above (overly) includes "losing accuracy" and course management - which also includes Jack and Davis playing for "80% of their potential distance".

 

More so than shot accuracy reasons, Tour pros choose 80% of potential distance because more than that will likely negatively effect the swing for the rest of the clubs within the bag.

Remember, scoring low is about playing all the shot distances consistently and effectively well. Players, especially amateur swings, get in trouble when "maximum distance" is a goal.

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

The title is talking about Tour Players, yes ?

 

Sans overly difficult spots and short siding oneself, proximity to the hole is king.

 

A Tour player will get closer from 40 yards than from 60, closer from 60 than from 80, etc........

 

And frankly, IMO, so will a 20 handicapper (I play with enough of them in scrambles LOL) and a single digit.

 

I used to play back to a full club into par 5s. After it being suggested to me here on WRX to get (safely) as close to a par 5 as possible, I've "proven" it to my satisfaction - many more 3rd shots closer to the hole and more make-able birdie putts.

Proximity to the hole tour average in 2020 was 36 feet. The top five in that category were 1. Josh Teater, 2. Ted Potter Jr 3 .Von Taylor 4.Chesson Hadley 5.Doug Ghim.....How's that stat working out for them. Doesn't matter if you can't get the ball in the hole. The statement that players automatically gets the ball closer to the hole the nearer they are to the green is a false narrative, a great player will get his favorite 100 yard wedge closer to the hole than another with an 80 yard shot the he can't spin. (See Zack Johnson) The stat is only advantageous if you make the Putt.......IMO 

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Historically, most long drive competitors , if they play rounds of golf at all, shoot 90 or worse.

It's absolutely true that technique things  one does with their swing to produce maximum distance will likely harm the swings for shorter yardage shots.

It's helpful to remember that learning a swing that works well  for all full shots, from driver thru wedge, makes better sense than grooving a swing which is effective only for the longest shafted clubs.

Absolutely! I stated in another post that the current long drive Champ Kyle Berkshire is trying to get on the PGATOUR. Kyle is currently working with Bryson DeC. on his distance and Bryson is working with him to get where he wants to be. Kyle is a +3 yet he's struggling with the Mini tours. In order for him to compete, Kyle's goal is to get to plus five(Kyle's words) which at that level is extremely hard to do....

[Titleist99]

On 10/15/2020 at 12:51 AM, Golfjack said:

Same abilities, just that one guy hits it further.  Which guy will win more?  Long hitter.  If you want to say the long hitter can't putt then sure.  Compare him to a short hitter who can't putt.  Who makes more money over their career?

While your giving me scenarios.......One guy hits it longer than another off the tee, he's closer to the green more often. The longer hitter hits it over the green on his approach shots constantly because he can't spin the ball, the shorter hitter hits it on the green and ten feet from the hole without fail and makes the putt most often......Who makes more money over their career......????

 

BTW.....If tour players had the same abilities there would be no need for rankings......IMO

Edited October 24, 2020 by Titleist99

[Sean2]

I saw on ESPN a short while ago, that Bryson hit a drive in practice that carried 401.3 yards. 

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, Sean2 said:

I saw on ESPN a short while ago, that Bryson hit a drive in practice that carried 401.3 yards. 

I guess that's it then. just give Bryson all the winners checks right now seeing as how to some on this fine board...... the longest driver wins.....LOL! Almost sarcasm.....

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

More so than shot accuracy reasons, Tour pros choose 80% of potential distance because more than that will likely negatively effect the swing for the rest of the clubs within the bag.

Remember, scoring low is about playing all the shot distances consistently and effectively well. Players, especially amateur swings, get in trouble when "maximum distance" is a goal.

 

So you're suggesting that the pro who hits his 8 iron 180 could hit it 225 but chooses to hit it 180 ?

 

No chance.

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Proximity to the hole tour average in 2020 was 36 feet. The top five in that category were 1. Josh Teater, 2. Ted Potter Jr 3 .Von Taylor 4.Chesson Hadley 5.Doug Ghim.....How's that stat working out for them. Doesn't matter if you can't get the ball in the hole. The statement that players automatically gets the ball closer to the hole the nearer they are to the green is a false narrative, a great player will get his favorite 100 yard wedge closer to the hole than another with an 80 yard shot the he can't spin. (See Zack Johnson) The stat is only advantageous if you make the Putt.......IMO 

 

Spin it again Sam.

 

NOBODY said putting wasn't important. And NOBODY said the guys who lead the Tour in proximity to the hole wins.

 

What I suggested was that everybody scores better the closer they are. The individual. You (and the pros) will make more putts from 3 feet than from 6. More from 6 than from 10. More from,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Now there ARE occasions where a pro (or an am) will prefer to be further back. But that's because of lie, obstacles, angle, bunkers, etc.

 

e.g. Lanto Griffin just now. He knocked it into the penalty area in front of a par 3. Instead of dropping at 86 yards, where he would be below green level and the pin was difficult to see, he decides to go further back where he's at or above the green level and can hit a full gap wedge and not fool around with the PA again.

 

But generally speaking, all other things being (roughly) equal, he (and you) will GET closer to the hole FROM closer to the hole.

 

 

[Titleist99]

49 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Spin it again Sam.

 

NOBODY said putting wasn't important. And NOBODY said the guys who lead the Tour in proximity to the hole wins.

 

What I suggested was that everybody scores better the closer they are. The individual. You (and the pros) will make more putts from 3 feet than from 6. More from 6 than from 10. More from,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Now there ARE occasions where a pro (or an am) will prefer to be further back. But that's because of lie, obstacles, angle, bunkers, etc.

 

e.g. Lanto Griffin just now. He knocked it into the penalty area in front of a par 3. Instead of dropping at 86 yards, where he would be below green level and the pin was difficult to see, he decides to go further back where he's at or above the green level and can hit a full gap wedge and not fool around with the PA again.

 

But generally speaking, all other things being (roughly) equal, he (and you) will GET closer to the hole FROM closer to the hole.

 

 

This bomb and gouge thing is nothing new on the PGATOUR. A lot of tour pro have withered on the vine trying to chase distance. Before this season there was a such thing called "getting to close to the hole' for the reasons I mention .....spin and uncontrollable pitch shots. If getting closer to the hole was all it takes to win or be prosperous on the PGATOUR a lot of players are not living up to their potential... BDC thinks that he has an advantage because he thinks that the rest of his game is on point which is a rarerity amongst the ranks......There's a reason the Pros swing at 80% and not out of their shoes at 100% trying to get closer to the hole.

[nsxguy]

24 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

This bomb and gouge thing is nothing new on the PGATOUR. A lot of tour pro have withered on the vine trying to chase distance. Before this season there was a such thing called "getting to close to the hole' for the reasons I mention .....spin and uncontrollable pitch shots. If getting closer to the hole was all it takes to win or be prosperous on the PGATOUR a lot of players are not living up to their potential... BDC thinks that he has an advantage because he thinks that the rest of his game is on point which is a rarerity amongst the ranks......There's a reason the Pros swing at 80% and not out of their shoes at 100% trying to get closer to the hole.

 

[Titleist99]

8 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, you need to stop saying it's an automatic advantage if you can hit it further. It's only an advantage if you can use added distance properly....

[nsxguy]

24 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Well, you need to stop saying it's an automatic advantage if you can hit it further. It's only an advantage if you can use added distance properly....

 

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Now there ARE occasions where a pro (or an am) will prefer to be further back. But that's because of lie, obstacles, angle, bunkers, etc.

.

.

.

 

But generally speaking, all other things being (roughly) equal, he (and you) will GET closer to the hole FROM closer to the hole.

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

12 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Well, you need to stop saying it's an automatic advantage if you can hit it further. It's only an advantage if you can use added distance properly....

Very true.  It’s very odd to me.  And I truly think it’s al in what one practices.     I myself tried to play smash and go golf yesterday and  scored horribly.  After it was over I laughed at myself.  I thought about it and said “ what happens if you dropped a ball at the 150 marker on every par 4 “? I answered myself by saying I’d hit the green and two putt a lot.  Maybe hit one or three close and maybe roll a few putts in.  Easy stress free play.  Instead we’re working from the trees , or trying to side sauce a sand wedge in from 47 yards to a tucked pin.   Missing the putt and laughing at the wasted effort and risk being taken.  

 So yes. Being closer helps some folks.  But to me it’s just added stress to get closer.  And added risk that makes no real sense.  Every time I go down this road , I see big drives in practice , and a lot of tree time in play.  And my scoring average rises.  As it did yesterday.  

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Very true.  It’s very odd to me.  And I truly think it’s al in what one practices.     I myself tried to play smash and go golf yesterday and  scored horribly.  After it was over I laughed at myself.  I thought about it and said “ what happens if you dropped a ball at the 150 marker on every par 4 “? I answered myself by saying I’d hit the green and two putt a lot.  Maybe hit one or three close and maybe roll a few putts in.  Easy stress free play.  Instead we’re working from the trees , or trying to side sauce a sand wedge in from 47 yards to a tucked pin.   Missing the putt and laughing at the wasted effort and risk being taken.  

 So yes. Being closer helps some folks.  But to me it’s just added stress to get closer.  And added risk that makes no real sense.  Every time I go down this road , I see big drives in practice , and a lot of tree time in play.  And my scoring average rises.  As it did yesterday.  

Remember that the "closer is better" approach assumes that you still end up with clear shots to the pin.  If the combination of dispersion and hazards (trees, water, deep rough, etc...) is causing lost strokes then you have to back off.  The other assumption is that you are somewhat proficient executing short pitches.  Finally, most of the benefit is acquired by getting a scoring wedge in your hands for the approach shot (the proximity curve flattens a bit once you are inside 125 or 100 depending on your length).