Going from G400 Max to TSi3...forgiveness question

[mpetruzz]

I played a G400 Max last season and hit it well but I often had high ballooning shots that would fall out of the sky and my bad miss was a snap hook.

 

Was fitted for a Titleist TSi3 and just wondering over the course of a season and I gonna miss the forgiveness?? I thought the TSi2 was going to be recommended but after a few hits my fitter put me in the 3. 

 

I know the Max is the most forgiving driver but at this point with technology  etc is it just more marketing hype?? I do make centerish contact and am a bit high and heel of center but def most times within the center section of the face. 

[Bakes0]

Not sure about the TSi3, I’m sure if you’re fit for it, it’ll work for you just fine. As far as the g400max’s forgiveness, I wouldn’t personally say it’s marketing hype. I played it all last season and I’d hit some spots on the face that I was sure would be awful (one-handed finishes and all that) and they’d still be in an ok spot, probably the fairway ha. Love the max and can’t speak more highly of its forgiveness. 

[Nixhex524]

I would not expect, nor did I experience, the TSi3 to be anywhere near as forgiving as the G400 Max.  Not to say it cant work for you, but the G400 Max is one of, if not, the most forgiving out there.

[mpetruzz]

Right, and I’m not expecting the same level of forgiveness. I guess I was probably overthinking it and wondering Holy crap did I make a mistake going from the most forgiving driver to something I’m gonna struggle with. 
 

I was fit for it so I’m sure it’ll be fine. Probably all in my head...I hope haha

[taoslcl]

I also went from Max to being fit for the TSi3. Hit both at my fitting and my dispersion and center contact was much better with the TSI3 plus I gained 20 yds distance. Will be interesting to see if this holds up on the course.

 

I could still spray the ball all over the place with the Max so hoping forgiveness is overrated. It's all about finding the sweet spot more often right? 

[Nixhex524]

13 hours ago, mpetruzz said:

Right, and I’m not expecting the same level of forgiveness. I guess I was probably overthinking it and wondering Holy crap did I make a mistake going from the most forgiving driver to something I’m gonna struggle with. 
 

I was fit for it so I’m sure it’ll be fine. Probably all in my head...I hope haha

Never know, you may end up hitting the TSi3 better than the Max.  There are subtle differences to every club that can make it or break it for us.  I was fit into the TSi2 while gaming the Max and on the course, the Titleist is longer, but even though it's the "2", I still find it to be less forgiving than the Max causing me to miss more fairways.  I hope it works out, I got faster ball speed with the TSi3 but couldn't control it as well as the TSi2.  I will say, I think you'll be VERY happy with the good ones!

Edited January 11, 2021 by Nixhex524
clarity

[easyyy]

2 hours ago, Nixhex524 said:

I would not expect, nor did I experience, the TSi3 to be anywhere near as forgiving as the G400 Max.  Not to say it cant work for you, but the G400 Max is one of, if not, the most forgiving out there.

 

I saw some proprietary testing data and I not sure if I agree. I didn't see the comparison between these 2 heads but I will say that the TSi3 is oddly forgiving and has crazy ball speeds. As a result I panicked and got the head in for personal testing and I was amazed how well it performed in both lower spin, high ball speeds and forgiveness was amazing. IN THE BAG. 

 

You can quote me on this... The TSi3 will be the or a top 3 heads for 2021. Too many fitters are  telling me about the MOI and ball speeds as well as the data I saw. I also saw that it could have more MOI than the TSi2. I need to ask to see the data again to understand how much more forgiving it is.

[Nixhex524]

Just now, easyyy said:

 

I saw some proprietary testing data and I not sure if I agree. I didn't see the comparison between these 2 heads but I will say that the TSi3 is oddly forgiving and has crazy ball speeds. As a result I panicked and got the head in for personal testing and I was amazed how well it performed in both lower spin, high ball speeds and forgiveness was amazing. IN THE BAG. 

 

You can quote me on this... The TSi3 will be the or a top 3 heads for 2021. Too many fitters are  telling me about the MOI and ball speeds as well as the data I saw. I also saw that it could have more MOI than the TSi2. I need to ask to see the data again to understand how much more forgiving it is.

 

That I would have to see to believe.  I am in no way saying the head can't be a top contender for 2021, but for who exactly?  The player who swings 114 and never misses the center of the face?  Or the once a week player who is lucky to get a range session in between rounds? 

 

I DO think these are Titleist's best effort in a LONG time, no doubt.  The faces are fast, I can see it in the distance I am getting in my TSi2, even without the shaft and settings I was fit for.  That said, I can only give my input on the OP subject based on my personal experience and from what I have read people say about the TSi3 here and other places.  It's obvious it has the potential to be a real weapon in the right hands, but is it going to be more forgiving than the G400 Max?  No.  I just don't see that, AND, it was not my experience at all.  It was designed to be the lower spinning of the two heads and I don't think most golfers need that low spin head which is why I believe the G400 Max has the reputation it does.  Spins a little more, but is also forgiving all over the face... a very good place to start.

[Lasorcier]

Have a G400 so cannot comment on the Max.  I got the TSi3 9*, MotoreX F3 stiff.  On the G400, it is Ventus Blue 6x 10.5* lofted to 9.5*.  Both are 44.75".

 

My observation is that the TSi3 is the better club for me.  I find both forgiving.  The TSi3 is definitely longer than the G400 and I have better results in that dispersion is tighter.  The dispersion is not better by much, but the distance difference is noticeable.

 

By way of illustration, top tracer says I hit my G400 total of 254 yards.  The shots there are both warm weather and cold weather.  Top tracer says I hit my TSi3 261 yards and it is only cold weather hits.  I got it in mid-December.  When it gets warmer, I am certain that difference will become larger.

 

 

[MPAndreassi]

42 minutes ago, easyyy said:

 

I saw some proprietary testing data and I not sure if I agree. I didn't see the comparison between these 2 heads but I will say that the TSi3 is oddly forgiving and has crazy ball speeds. As a result I panicked and got the head in for personal testing and I was amazed how well it performed in both lower spin, high ball speeds and forgiveness was amazing. IN THE BAG. 

 

You can quote me on this... The TSi3 will be the or a top 3 heads for 2021. Too many fitters are  telling me about the MOI and ball speeds as well as the data I saw. I also saw that it could have more MOI than the TSi2. I need to ask to see the data again to understand how much more forgiving it is.

I’m happy to hear this. I love the look and feel of it. I’ve only hit it with an AV Raw White, which I never got along with, and it was a hook machine for me. I’m looking forward to hitting it with some other shafts in it. 

[bigd231]

I was fitted into the TSI3 from the standard g400 and haven't had any major issues with forgiveness.

 

Comparing the pair, I'd say you get more feedback from the tsi3. You definitely know/feel when you haven't hit it well, but you're not penalised overly harshly in terms of direction and distance.

 

Only when you start to strike out near the very edges of the face, do you start to really lose control, which is where the extra forgiveness of the g400 would come into play. It did occasionally save me from a truly horrendous strike that had no business ending up anywhere near playable.

 

As long as you strike it somewhere near the middle you won't have any issues with the tsi3.

 

I found the weight track to be a big help in terms of the overall forgiveness of the club. Originally I was fit into the weight at H2, but I found the toe (my regular miss) to be really dead. Eventually shifted the weight to T1 and it made a huge difference to my toe side miss in terms of how solid they felt off the club.

 

If your miss is consistently on the heel side of the club, slide the weight over to H1 and get that bit of extra mass behind the ball, you'll notice the difference. Centre strikes will be as pure as normal but you'll have bit more guts behind the miss

[extrastiff]

14 hours ago, mpetruzz said:

I played a G400 Max last season and hit it well but I often had high ballooning shots that would fall out of the sky and my bad miss was a snap hook.

 

Was fitted for a Titleist TSi3 and just wondering over the course of a season and I gonna miss the forgiveness?? I thought the TSi2 was going to be recommended but after a few hits my fitter put me in the 3. 

 

I know the Max is the most forgiving driver but at this point with technology  etc is it just more marketing hype?? I do make centerish contact and am a bit high and heel of center but def most times within the center section of the face. 

You should regret your decision. You have made a mistake leaving the max.
 

Just remove the rear weight to eliminate those spinny ballon shots. Snap hook is on you imo 🙂

edit: just realized u said u hit high and on heel of face sometimes.  So high ball is prob on you also

 

Did u get numbers on your gamer when u got fit?

Edited January 11, 2021 by extrastiff

[mpetruzz]

1 hour ago, bigd231 said:

I was fitted into the TSI3 from the standard g400 and haven't had any major issues with forgiveness.

 

Comparing the pair, I'd say you get more feedback from the tsi3. You definitely know/feel when you haven't hit it well, but you're not penalised overly harshly in terms of direction and distance.

 

Only when you start to strike out near the very edges of the face, do you start to really lose control, which is where the extra forgiveness of the g400 would come into play. It did occasionally save me from a truly horrendous strike that had no business ending up anywhere near playable.

 

As long as you strike it somewhere near the middle you won't have any issues with the tsi3.

 

I found the weight track to be a big help in terms of the overall forgiveness of the club. Originally I was fit into the weight at H2, but I found the toe (my regular miss) to be really dead. Eventually shifted the weight to T1 and it made a huge difference to my toe side miss in terms of how solid they felt off the club.

 

If your miss is consistently on the heel side of the club, slide the weight over to H1 and get that bit of extra mass behind the ball, you'll notice the difference. Centre strikes will be as pure as normal but you'll have bit more guts behind the miss

My average with my gamer was about 250 with an occasional longer drive if it was the right hole and conditions. My bad shots with the TSi3 were going about just as far and when I was catching it well I was 270ish. 
 

on the sim even with my bad hits they looked to still be playable. I completely expect a crappy swing to not stay in play no matter which club I use but as mentioned there were times the ping kept me somewhat playable when I had do right to be
 

with the head being so big there were times when I’d put a lazy swing on in cause I felt like I couldn’t go offline and that led to some bad swings. I felt like I was focusing more or maybe making better contact with the TSi3 because after a two sessions hitting it my dispersion didn’t seem too far off than my ping. 
 

The place I went too is a top 100 fitter so I’m sure they put me in the club that was best for my swing etc. I’m sure it’s just in my head and know that even if the club isn’t as forgiving, but if I hit it better that will mean it’s more consistent and the one for me.

Edited January 11, 2021 by mpetruzz

[extrastiff]

5 hours ago, mpetruzz said:

My average with my gamer was about 250 with an occasional longer drive if it was the right hole and conditions. My bad shots with the TSi3 were going about just as far and when I was catching it well I was 270ish. 
 

on the sim even with my bad hits they looked to still be playable. I completely expect a crappy swing to not stay in play no matter which club I use but as mentioned there were times the ping kept me somewhat playable when I had do right to be
 

with the head being so big there were times when I’d put a lazy swing on in cause I felt like I couldn’t go offline and that led to some bad swings. I felt like I was focusing more or maybe making better contact with the TSi3 because after a two sessions hitting it my dispersion didn’t seem too far off than my ping. 
 

The place I went too is a top 100 fitter so I’m sure they put me in the club that was best for my swing etc. I’m sure it’s just in my head and know that even if the club isn’t as forgiving, but if I hit it better that will mean it’s more consistent and the one for me.

That’s in my opinion a pretty common misconception, it’s very possible to be fit to a bad swing. Not saying that happened, but that unless you have high spin that sounds like a sales job to me.  Do you remember any spin rates from your fitting?

Edited January 11, 2021 by extrastiff

[mpetruzz]

I don’t remember the exact number but with my current driver I was high 2000s and misses went up obvi higher. I had similar spin rates from the tsi2. Spin with the TSi3 was low to mid 2000s and misses were also lower than my ping. 
 

I do remember a specific instance where the TSi3 helped me...had a misshit with my gamer high on the face and hit it 205 carry, 210 total. Next shot was with the TSi3 and same hit but I had lower spin and ballflight and it went 220 with 235 total. 

[ram01002]

On 1/10/2021 at 10:04 PM, easyyy said:

 

I saw some proprietary testing data and I not sure if I agree. I didn't see the comparison between these 2 heads but I will say that the TSi3 is oddly forgiving and has crazy ball speeds. As a result I panicked and got the head in for personal testing and I was amazed how well it performed in both lower spin, high ball speeds and forgiveness was amazing. IN THE BAG. 

 

You can quote me on this... The TSi3 will be the or a top 3 heads for 2021. Too many fitters are  telling me about the MOI and ball speeds as well as the data I saw. I also saw that it could have more MOI than the TSi2. I need to ask to see the data again to understand how much more forgiving it is.

Now this is very interesting 

[taoslcl]

I'll also say I was fit into the TSi3 as a 12 HC and with a swing speed around 98-100 so probably not your typical "3" player. I hit it against the G400 Max and Std Maverick and it worked better for me than all of those granted I wasn't fit for my Max or Mav. It wasn't even close how much better my contact was with the TSi3. It was the only one I hit with a Ventus so maybe that shaft does what it says. Anyway, I would agree that this driver is going to fit a lot more people than some will give it credit for.  I'll have my first round with it this weekend so fingers crossed this carries over to the course. 

[mpetruzz]

36 minutes ago, taoslcl said:

I'll also say I was fit into the TSi3 as a 12 HC and with a swing speed around 98-100 so probably not your typical "3" player. I hit it against the G400 Max and Std Maverick and it worked better for me than all of those granted I wasn't fit for my Max or Mav. It wasn't even close how much better my contact was with the TSi3. It was the only one I hit with a Ventus so maybe that shaft does what it says. Anyway, I would agree that this driver is going to fit a lot more people than some will give it credit for.  I'll have my first round with it this weekend so fingers crossed this carries over to the course. 

I’ve been watching some reviews online and that’s what they’ve been saying...many people were fitted into the 3 thinking the 2 was better. I fully admit when I had the max I just swung cause I felt like I couldn’t miss which led to crappy results. While not perfectly centered my contact pattern was much tighter on the face with the 3. 
 

im hoping that with some range time it’ll be even better. I was looking at some of my numbers and I was getting 240 or so off the center and close to the heel. Those would have been 200 with my ping due to the extra spin 

[RoyalMustang]

I hit the 425 LST today as well as the TSi3.  the LST had a Rogue 70g stiff shaft and the TSi3 a new white Tensei shaft in 70g stiff (both stock). LST was turned down to 8 and TSi3 was stock 8 degree. 

 

I was super tired as I had already hit a small bucket of range balls and walked 18 holes, plus had hit around 150 balls the day before, but I found the TSi3 to be a lot more "in the fairway" and lower in terms of launch angle and spin than the LST.  I wasn't swinging hard (again, super tired) but the TSi3 was consistently 270-288, around a 11-13 launch angle, and 1800-2300 rpms of spin.  My ball speed was low 150's (I am normally low to mid 160s when fresh).  I kept hitting the LST high for whatever reason: there was some sort of mismatch, and I got more spin on the good strikes: 2300-2500 was the norm. My swing isn't perfect and I have far too much variance, but it was clear that the TSi3 was a great match for my current swing.  I had also more balls in the fairway; I will take a 272 yard heel-miss down the middle any day of the week.

 

I was surprised as the Ping reputation is for forgiveness, but I haven't found this to be the case. I bought a 410 plus from global golf to try and returned it as my Srixon is far more reliable for me. I get more snap hooks and balloon shots on the 410.  It could also be the shaft: the 410 plus came with a Evenflow black 75S and the Srixon a CK Pro Orange TX 70.  

[mpetruzz]

Snap hooks and ballon shots were exactly why I started looking for other options from the g400 max. Shots in the middle were good but misses were tough for my swing and head/shaft combo. 
 

in all of the testing I did with the TSi3 I had one snap hook and only a few ballooning shots. 

[Valtiel]

It is important to dissect what we mean by "forgiveness" and how it is typically measured. No marketing BS here, but the numbers to plug in to the adjectives. 

Forgiveness is typically measured by MOI in gcm^2 (grams per centimeter squared), which is a measurement of the clubhead's resistance to twisting. Twisting on off center hits produces the vertical (for centered strikes above and below the sweet spot) and horizontal (for centered strikes left and right of the sweet spot) gear effects. The higher the MOI, the more resistance to twisting, the less the gear effects and the more stable your ball flight will be on misshits. The USGA has capped MOI at 5,900 gcm^2 with a buffer of 100 gcm^2, and the G400 MAX comes in right around 5,600. This means there is very little room to make a "more forgiving" driver, and realistically we will only ever see the G400 MAX matched in this sense, but not functionally surpassed. 

The less common way of expressing forgiveness is ball speed retention across the face, something that fancy face tech is designed to help with. In that there are likely gains over the G400 MAX possible, but that really only matters if the ball is still on the planet. I'd wager that the TSi3 is likely faster across the face than the G400 MAX, but that actual MOI number is yet to be seen. Still though, at best you will be in the ballpark of the MAX, so it is best to look at your other options for increasing performance. 

If your miss is consistently towards one side of the face (in this case heel as you mentioned) then moveable weight can help here. Shifting weight towards your miss will lessen the negative effects associated with it since it literally moves the sweet spot in that direction. It is a game of millimeters though, so don't expect a massive improvement. But the point is that for someone with a heel miss, a higher MOI driver with a fade biased CG (shifted towards the toe) could actually be LESS forgiving than a slightly lower MOI driver with the CG shifted towards the heel. This is all fitting nuance and maximizing what you can get out of any given product. 

[mpetruzz]

And my miss is slightly high towards the heel. Once the weight was moved to the H1 position I started seeing great numbers even on my misshits with the TSi3. 
 

so what was said above would make sense in my case. 

[hammergolf]

On 1/10/2021 at 4:32 PM, mpetruzz said:

I played a G400 Max last season and hit it well but I often had high ballooning shots that would fall out of the sky and my bad miss was a snap hook.

 

Was fitted for a Titleist TSi3 and just wondering over the course of a season and I gonna miss the forgiveness?? I thought the TSi2 was going to be recommended but after a few hits my fitter put me in the 3. 

 

I know the Max is the most forgiving driver but at this point with technology  etc is it just more marketing hype?? I do make centerish contact and am a bit high and heel of center but def most times within the center section of the face. 

G400 Max will be more forgiving horizontally and front ot back. But no doubt TSi3 will be longer and lower spinning. It's the age old story, would you rather be 10yds straighter or 10yds longer. I am looking forward to try the 425 Max. I switched to a Sim driver from the 400 Max and while it was much longer, it seems like my mishits were not as good. But I was hitting it 20yds further so I made the trade off and lived with it. If I can get a 425 Max that fits in my spin window better I will prob go back to it.

[mpetruzz]

I agree 100! I’d rather be in the fairway than 10 yards farther. From what I saw on the monitor I was just as accurate with the TSi3 but longer overall. 
 

I’ll admit I was in the fairway probably more than I should have been some days. But the spin on that max killed me if I wasn’t centering my shots. And I know I’m adding spin by my swing but after being fit into the TSi3 with the adjustments I’m hoping it’ll help me make better contact resulting in better accuracy. 
 

I guess we’ll see how that translates to the course. I’ve committed to it and I’m gonna give it a few months. If I’m spraying it but get the occasional bomb that’s not what I’m looking for. 
 

fingers crossed!!!

Edited January 13, 2021 by mpetruzz

[BirdieBirdieX]

The TSi3 is sneaky forgiving with increased ball speeds and lower launch angle. I was very, very surprised that it was as forgiving as it is. I came from the TS3 with a brief snint with the Sim last summer and it's more forgiving and longer than both in my opinion. The lower launch and spins allows me to crank up the loft one setting and still keep it from spinning out of control (I'm a high spin, high launch player)

[RainShadow]

I've only hit the G400 ( current gamer) and the TSi3.

The G400 is the most forgiving driver I have ever owned.

When I spent about 45 minutes hitting the TSi3 indoors, I found it to be pretty forgiving. 

I'm looking forward to hitting them head to head outside some time soon. I may have to pay for a fitting to do that, though, with the covid situation nobody's doing demo days here.

I'm very interested in the TSi3, for sure!

 

[mpetruzz]

For me what I saw was forgiveness due to the spin being consistent across the face. With my ping spin would get way too high the more I moved off center. I know that added spin is how I’m delivering the club but the I’m hoping the 3 is a better match for my swing etc. 

[RoyalMustang]

7 hours ago, BirdieBirdieX said:

The TSi3 is sneaky forgiving with increased ball speeds and lower launch angle. I was very, very surprised that it was as forgiving as it is. I came from the TS3 with a brief snint with the Sim last summer and it's more forgiving and longer than both in my opinion. The lower launch and spins allows me to crank up the loft one setting and still keep it from spinning out of control (I'm a high spin, high launch player)

 

That is what I noticed as well. I had some pretty bad misses that spun at 1800, launched at 8-9 degrees off the heel, and were still in the fairway at 270 or so.  A normally well-hit drive for me is going to be 290-310.  Oddly enough, I wasn't hitting any great balls with the TSi3, but they were all misses that were very playable.  

[mpetruzz]

30 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

That is what I noticed as well. I had some pretty bad misses that spun at 1800, launched at 8-9 degrees off the heel, and were still in the fairway at 270 or so.  A normally well-hit drive for me is going to be 290-310.  Oddly enough, I wasn't hitting any great balls with the TSi3, but they were all misses that were very playable.  

Agree 100 about the misses still being out there and in play. I put contact tape and was hitting a string towards the heel that were still in play and close to 240-250. 

[Davidv]

Simply stated the TSi3 is not going to be as forgiving as the Ping G400 Max.