What's your Dream school?

[BloctonGolf11]

7 minutes ago, jj9000 said:

 

This happens every day, and it has nothing to do with golf.

 

In your example, candidate B gets the job regardless of if he/she even plays golf.

 

The original premise of this discussion (pages back) was the suggestion that the Ivies are over-rated academically, and if given a binary option, would you send your kid to Southwest Tech on golf scholarship, or, send your kid to an Ivy with no scholarship?  In my opinion, the networking, education, and door-opening at an Ivy are much more powerful than "hoping" someone in Senior Management graduated from Southwest Tech.  The golf element is a wash b/c a Scratch golfer is going to have the golf skill-set graduating from either institution.

 

If you want to get into a 'who you know' discussion, that's OK, so long as it's mutually understood that the pool of ultra-successful graduates is larger for the Ivies than that of Southwest Tech.  The baseline of graduates coming out of HYSP are typically accepting very different offer letters than the baseline graduates from Southwest Tech.  If we don't agree here as a baseline, we'll likely continue to disagree.

This. A HYSP etc college doesn't bust you through the ceiling but it sure eliminates or lessens the floor/basement of your job prospects. Connections may help you get somewhere but they don't protect you, a degree from HYSP etc will always open doors for you, simple as that. 

[mikedellgolf]

3 minutes ago, jj9000 said:

 

This happens every day, and it has nothing to do with golf.

 

In your example, candidate B gets the job regardless of if he/she even plays golf.

 

It has nothing with golf but that's how they get to know one another, on the golf course.

 

5 minutes ago, jj9000 said:

If you want to get into a 'who you know' discussion, that's OK, so long as it's mutually understood that the pool of ultra-successful graduates is larger for the Ivies than that of Southwest Tech.  The baseline of graduates coming out of HYSP are typically accepting very different offer letters than the baseline graduates from Southwest Tech.  If we don't agree here as a baseline, we'll likely continue to disagree.

I don't disagree with you on the premise that someone is looking at resumes without knowing both candidates.  Yes, you're 100% correct.  However, it does not work like that in the real world,  connections matter.

 

As I've mentioned before, the people who attended Stanford or Ivies, are likely to succeed should they decide to attend Southwest Tech.

[mikedellgolf]

3 minutes ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

This. A HYSP etc college doesn't bust you through the ceiling but it sure eliminates or lessens the floor/basement of your job prospects. Connections may help you get somewhere but they don't protect you, a degree from HYSP etc will always open doors for you, simple as that. 

 

I beg to differ with you on that.  I have a colleague who should be terminated but no one dares to fire him because his son is a very good friend of the CEO's daughter, and he gets invited to the CEO house for parties on a regular basis. 

 

 

He is not doing any meaningful work and my boss wants to fire him but can't because nobody wants retribution from senior management.

[BloctonGolf11]

3 minutes ago, mikedellgolf said:

 

I beg to differ with you on that.  I have a colleague who should be terminated but no one dares to fire him because his son is a very good friend of the CEO's daughter, and he gets invited to the CEO house for parties on a regular basis. 

 

 

He is not doing any meaningful work and my boss wants to fire him but can't because nobody wants retribution from senior management.

Tigeresque anecdotal evidence. We all know those individual people but across the board the degree from the great university is a far better safety net than "connections". If you move across the country connections are a lot harder to travel than your degree from Yale or Stanford. Connections are individual anecdotal items that can be powerful, a degree is universal. 

[jj9000]

2 minutes ago, mikedellgolf said:

 

It has nothing with golf but that's how they get to know one another, on the golf course.

 

I don't disagree with you on the premise that someone is looking at resumes without knowing both candidates.  Yes, you're 100% correct.  However, it does not work like that in the real world,  connections matter.

 

As I've mentioned before, the people who attended Stanford or Ivies, are likely to succeed should they decide to attend Southwest Tech.

 

This is part and parcel to my position.  One must analyze this from the perspective of the Mean, and not the outliers.  The Mean suggests the career paths / progressions...and subsequent networking connections from the Ivies are on a different level than that of Southwest Tech.

[mikedellgolf]

1 minute ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

Tigeresque anecdotal evidence. We all know those individual people but across the board the degree from the great university is a far better safety net than "connections". If you move across the country connections are a lot harder to travel than your degree from Yale or Stanford. Connections are individual anecdotal items that can be powerful, a degree is universal. 

Actually that is not entirely accurate.

 

My company CFO, located in Virginia, got his job because the CEO knows him and offered the position.  He lasted 18 months with the company and got fired.  He got another CFO position at another financial service company in California with a 50% increase in salary (to 2.5M/year). Btw, he graduated from Virginia Tech.  He got the gig in California because another of his buddy is a CEO there.

 

Context matters. 

[BloctonGolf11]

Just now, mikedellgolf said:

Actually that is not entirely accurate.

 

My company CFO, located in Virginia, got his job because the CEO knows him and offered the position.  He lasted 18 months with the company and got fired.  He got another CFO position at another financial service company in California with a 50% increase in salary (to 2.5M/year). Btw, he graduated from Virginia Tech.  He got the gig in California because another of his buddy is a CEO there.

 

Context matters. 

Please look up anecdotal evidence and stop using it. We can all rattle off individual stories till the cows come home, that does not tell the overall statistical story.

 

Also, you are acting like connections and a great education are mutually exclusive. You know what is great? You can have both connections AND a great education so why not have both? Why not go to a great institution and also make connections.

[mikedellgolf]

Just now, BloctonGolf11 said:

Please look up anecdotal evidence and stop using it. We can all rattle off individual stories till the cows come home, that does not tell the overall statistical story.

 

Also, you are acting like connections and a great education are mutually exclusive. You know what is great? You can have both connections AND a great education so why not have both? Why not go to a great institution and also make connections.

 

Because it is very hard to do both.  At great institutions, you have to spend all of your time studying, especially in the STEM field, and no time to make connections.

 

Yes, it would be nice to be able to do both but the reality is that most can't.

[BloctonGolf11]

Just now, mikedellgolf said:

 

Because it is very hard to do both.  At great institutions, you have to spend all of your time studying, especially in the STEM field, and no time to make connections.

 

Yes, it would be nice to be able to do both but the reality is that most can't.

Um no its not. You make insane connections at top level schools because of alumni, professors, and who you are around. You do realize connections are not exclusive to the golf course right? 

[tiger1873]

1 hour ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

It is called being a diligent and responsible parent. Going to a restaurant without reading a review is "wild side" disregarding the reputation and value of your child's college choice is reckless irresponsible and honestly disturbing. Hope your kids enjoy their subpar education because some coach sweet talks you about the golf program. 

 

Can you name any D1 schools that are subpar education????????????????? 

 

The way your speaking you think that a Vet shouldn't go to Texas A&M or UC Davis.  if he can go to Harvard.   For Vets UC Davis and Texas A&M are some the best places to go.    You are not going to find too many cows or horses at harvard.

 

Most corporations that make money only care about what you offer them and can you do the job and do you get along with the  current employees.  Maybe after that they might ask about school.

 

A kid who played college golf or any athletics brings a little excitement to the workplace so in my books.

 

The only place school might matter more then your actual talent is a government position.

 

 

[BloctonGolf11]

1 minute ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Can you name any D1 schools that are subpar education????????????????? 

 

The way your speaking you think that a Vet shouldn't go to Texas A&M or UC Davis.  if he can go to Harvard.   For Vets UC Davis and Texas A&M are some the best places to go.    You are not going to find too many cows or horses at harvard.

 

Most corporations that make money only care about what you offer them and can you do the job and do you get along with the  current employees.  Maybe after that they might ask about school.

 

A kid who played college golf or any athletics brings a little excitement to the workplace so in my books.

 

The only place school might matter more then your actual talent is a government position.

 

 

If you think the business world and private world does not care about the college you went to you are an idiot. 

 

If you think pursuing graduate degrees is not heavily contingent on where you got your undergrad you are an idiot. 

 

If you are wanting to be a Vet and you are going to a top tier college for Veterinarian study than you are doing EXACTLY what I have been preaching Tiger. Again I never said it had to be an Ivy. My God do you even read what people post? I said Top Tier institutions. People would not look at Alabama as a top tier institution but the law school is a top level law school so if you are going to be a lawyer it is a great choice. However, these are things that college rankings show which you obviously don't care about. I am talking about when you choose an obviously inferior institution because you can play golf there instead of going to a much better elite level institution Tiger. 

[MB19]

2 hours ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

If you look at the rankings UCLA, UNC, Vandy, and other non Ivies can fight with anyone. Their name recognition is not quite as good for sure but for those who pay attention they are elite institutions. 

I have looked at the rankings, and they are all not in the top 10.

 

Now, the top 10 (12, really) is wildly subjective IMO, but here it is per US News:

1. Princeton

T2. Columbia

T2. Harvard

T2. MIT

5. Yale

6. Stanford

7. University of Chicago

8. Penn

T9. Cal Tech

T9. Duke 

T9. Johns Hopkins

T9. Northwestern

 

Vandy is T14, UCLA 20, UNC T28.

 

I think it is fair to question where the "elite" line is drawn.  Is elite top 10? 20? 50?

 

Some schools aren't thought of as elite schools, but have an elite program feeding into a given field.  These sorts of rankings are pretty general.  One look at the engineering school rankings speaks to that.

 

 

[tiger1873]

12 minutes ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

If you think the business world and private world does not care about the college you went to you are an idiot. 

 

If you think pursuing graduate degrees is not heavily contingent on where you got your undergrad you are an idiot. 

 

If you are wanting to be a Vet and you are going to a top tier college for Veterinarian study than you are doing EXACTLY what I have been preaching Tiger. Again I never said it had to be an Ivy. My God do you even read what people post? I said Top Tier institutions. People would not look at Alabama as a top tier institution but the law school is a top level law school so if you are going to be a lawyer it is a great choice. However, these are things that college rankings show which you obviously don't care about. I am talking about when you choose an obviously inferior institution because you can play golf there instead of going to a much better elite level institution Tiger. 

 

You are all over the map on this dude.  No one is going to a JC college to play golf over attending a decent D1 school.  You are assuming that is what everyone is saying.  

 

The reality is a lot kids end up going to a private school because they are playing golf vs a public institution.  There is no right or wrong. 

 

 

[tiger1873]

30 minutes ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

Um no its not. You make insane connections at top level schools because of alumni, professors, and who you are around. You do realize connections are not exclusive to the golf course right? 

 

Do you actually play golf????  Seriously golf is a social activity and the reality is most people are not too good at it.   Most people never see someone break 80 never mind par.  

 

We are talking about kids who have a talent good enough to play college golf on a golf site  so he is kind of on topic.

[BloctonGolf11]

5 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

You are all over the map on this dude.  No one is going to a JC college to play golf over attending a decent D1 school.  You are assuming that is what everyone is saying.  

 

The reality is a lot kids end up going to a private school because they are playing golf vs a public institution.  There is no right or wrong. 

 

 

You telling me I am all over the place, that is rich from the guy who if he ever had a logical train of thought go through his head it would be the quickest trip in North America.

 

There are 300 D1 programs. If you go to a school with crappy programs for "golf" over going to an elite educational situation you are foolish was my point. My examples were people who choose to go to small regional universities instead of elite institutions based on golf alone. If you are going to a good D1 with a solidly ranked academics you are probably doing well, the problem comes in when people go to very mediocre academic schools over better options and try to justify it for other reasons. Then this thread diverged into academic vs. connections and success. 

 

Also, there are a TON of kids who go to JC to play golf instead of going to a good four year college, it happens a lot Tiger. 

 

You are right, yes I can say that, there is no right or wrong; however, there are certainly paths that are better for your future chances than others. 

[BloctonGolf11]

4 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Do you actually play golf????  Seriously golf is a social activity and the reality is most people are not too good at it.   Most people never see someone break 80 never mind par.  

 

We are talking about kids who have a talent good enough to play college golf on a golf site  so he is kind of on topic.

Yes I play, not that matters and if you would actually read I never said golf was not a social activity I simply said golf is not the only place you make connections. I swear I know 4 year olds with better reading comprehension than you. 

 

*Also aren't you always talking about how easy it is to break 80? You sure seem to change on the difficulty of the game. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by BloctonGolf11

[BloctonGolf11]

15 minutes ago, MB19 said:

I have looked at the rankings, and they are all not in the top 10.

 

Now, the top 10 (12, really) is wildly subjective IMO, but here it is per US News:

1. Princeton

T2. Columbia

T2. Harvard

T2. MIT

5. Yale

6. Stanford

7. University of Chicago

8. Penn

T9. Cal Tech

T9. Duke 

T9. Johns Hopkins

T9. Northwestern

 

Vandy is T14, UCLA 20, UNC T28.

 

I think it is fair to question where the "elite" line is drawn.  Is elite top 10? 20? 50?

 

Some schools aren't thought of as elite schools, but have an elite program feeding into a given field.  These sorts of rankings are pretty general.  One look at the engineering school rankings speaks to that.

 

 

With the amount of colleges I would say top 25 is Elite and as you can see the schools I mentioned are either in the top 25 or right outside of it. You are 100% that you need to look at specific programs. Alabama is a great example, they are not an elite overall institution but their law program is. UAB is not an elite educational institute overall but their medical school is among the elite in the country. 

[tiger1873]

2 minutes ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

 

 

*Also aren't you always talking about how easy it is to break 80? You sure seem to change on the difficulty of the game. 

 

I was talking about the average golfer not ones who actually play tournaments.  The average hack is lucky to break 90 while the tournament golfer has no problem breaking 80 because they put in the time.

[jj9000]

4 minutes ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

 

*Also aren't you always talking about how easy it is to break 80? You sure seem to change on the difficulty of the game. 

 

No.  He's yet to break 90.

 

Grindin'

 

I'd also like to thank Leezer for introducing me to the Ignore feature.  I can't see posts unless they are quoted and reposted.

[BloctonGolf11]

Just now, jj9000 said:

 

No.  He's yet to break 90.

 

Grindin'

 

I'd also like to thank Leezer for introducing me to the Ignore feature.  I can't see posts unless they are quoted and reposted.

I swear I am about at that point. I normally welcome alternative viewpoints and enjoy a good logical healthy debate but after awhile his shenanigans are getting exhausting. 

[leezer99]

I think that finding a university that most closely matches your kids values and aspirations isn’t that hard. Ranking colleges is like ranking drivers… they’re all similar but there’s only one that’s best for you. 

[mikedellgolf]

5 hours ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

If you think the business world and private world does not care about the college you went to you are an idiot. 

 

I can say in my neck of the financial service industry of the world, we don't care where you attended, if you can't produce, you will get fired.  My sister works in software/technology sales and they don't care where you graduate, Stanford, Ivies, Devry or Phoenix.  You will get fired if you don't produce the required sales quota.

[Movingday]

6 hours ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

Tigeresque anecdotal evidence. We all know those individual people but across the board the degree from the great university is a far better safety net than "connections". If you move across the country connections are a lot harder to travel than your degree from Yale or Stanford. Connections are individual anecdotal items that can be powerful, a degree is universal. 

Has to be Tigers brother. 

[Movingday]

26 minutes ago, mikedellgolf said:

 

I can say in my neck of the financial service industry of the world, we don't care where you attended, if you can't produce, you will get fired.  My sister works in software/technology sales and they don't care where you graduate, Stanford, Ivies, Devry or Phoenix.  You will get fired if you don't produce the required sales quota.

That’s not even close to what the argument is about 

[jj9000]

31 minutes ago, mikedellgolf said:

 

I can say in my neck of the financial service industry of the world, we don't care where you attended, if you can't produce, you will get fired.  My sister works in software/technology sales and they don't care where you graduate, Stanford, Ivies, Devry or Phoenix.  You will get fired if you don't produce the required sales quota.

 

 

 

[BFD3]

10 hours ago, mikedellgolf said:

 

Because it is very hard to do both.  At great institutions, you have to spend all of your time studying, especially in the STEM field, and no time to make connections.

 

Yes, it would be nice to be able to do both but the reality is that most can't.

This is absolutely not true. Maybe with the exception of the MIT's and Cal Tech's of the world, getting into the high profile schools is the hardest part about the process. Once you're admitted, you can work as hard or as little as you want. What really doesn't matter is how you do in college as long as you get your degree. (Just like the joke, "What do you call the person that finishes last in medical school? Doctor.")

 

BTW, I'm assuming you're Asian. Otherwise, you're an a**.

[MB19]

20 hours ago, BFD3 said:

This is absolutely not true. Maybe with the exception of the MIT's and Cal Tech's of the world, getting into the high profile schools is the hardest part about the process. Once you're admitted, you can work as hard or as little as you want. What really doesn't matter is how you do in college as long as you get your degree. (Just like the joke, "What do you call the person that finishes last in medical school? Doctor.")

 

BTW, I'm assuming you're Asian. Otherwise, you're an a**.

Dude already said he was Asian, and he talked about his Asian relatives.  
 

Unless you don’t believe him, but that’s another thread altogether.

[golfortennis]

What I saw in my experience was that your alma mater matters early on, but 10 years into working it's more about what you can do than where you went.

 

The issue comes about when you consider that, if you want Job C at 35, you will have wanted experience at Jobs A & B before hand.  Getting Job A especially can be affected by your alma mater if you don't have the personal connections.  

 

The bigger question that needs to be answered is, depending on the situation, how much debt do you want to take on to attend certain schools?

[mikedellgolf]

On 3/18/2022 at 11:31 PM, BFD3 said:

This is absolutely not true. Maybe with the exception of the MIT's and Cal Tech's of the world, getting into the high profile schools is the hardest part about the process. Once you're admitted, you can work as hard or as little as you want. What really doesn't matter is how you do in college as long as you get your degree. (Just like the joke, "What do you call the person that finishes last in medical school? Doctor.")

 

BTW, I'm assuming you're Asian. Otherwise, you're an a**.

 

I hope you're not a doctor.  People with high GPA in medical school have options to choose the medical specialties.  Try to get into dermatology or Neural Surgery if you finish last in medical school.

 

If you want to graduate with a 2.0 GPA, then go ahead and do not study hard.

 

16 hours ago, golfortennis said:

What I saw in my experience was that your alma mater matters early on, but 10 years into working it's more about what you can do than where you went.

 

The issue comes about when you consider that, if you want Job C at 35, you will have wanted experience at Jobs A & B before hand.  Getting Job A especially can be affected by your alma mater if you don't have the personal connections.  

 

The bigger question that needs to be answered is, depending on the situation, how much debt do you want to take on to attend certain schools?

 

The answer is spotted on.  Yes, it only matters if you don't have the connections and that your resume is read by HR who determines between you and other candidates.  Most of the time, that is not the case.  Most people have personal connections, one way or the other.

 

In my situation, my son will be going to technology/software sales so it doesn't make sense for me to pay 80K/year to attend either Stanford or Ivies versus 35K/year for UVA.  He can use that extra 45K/year to improve his golf game and social skills to increase his chance of being a successful technology/software sales opportunities.

[BloctonGolf11]

18 hours ago, golfortennis said:

What I saw in my experience was that your alma mater matters early on, but 10 years into working it's more about what you can do than where you went.

 

The issue comes about when you consider that, if you want Job C at 35, you will have wanted experience at Jobs A & B before hand.  Getting Job A especially can be affected by your alma mater if you don't have the personal connections.  

 

The bigger question that needs to be answered is, depending on the situation, how much debt do you want to take on to attend certain schools?

Great answer and spot on. People keep talking about producing and making connections with upper management. Can't make those connections and can't produce if you can't get your foot in the door and the better the school the better ability you have to bust open the door. 

 

Lord knows the debt issue is huge as well. Why you need to focus on academic scholarships that are so lucrative and more of a guarantee than athletic.

Edited March 21, 2022 by BloctonGolf11