distance debate

[Hickory4ever]

7 hours ago, buckeyefl said:

 

The original TM metal drivers from 1979 were indeed smaller than their wooden predecessors and were around 140cc. I still have a few and take them out for a round. They still play well.

[So_Cal]

12 hours ago, gvogel said:

Someone mentioned an 80 cc driver (a Tour Striker driver? 😉 ), and now a 120 cc driver.  Way impossible and didn't exist.  The first TaylorMade Pittsburgh Persimmon was 151cc from what I have read, and that was actually smaller than a persimmon driver.  However, because it was hollow, it actually might have had more MOI, and probably a little hotter face.  And consistency across the face.

 

If the new Ping G25 Fairway Max fairway wood is 176 cc, surely the old wooden driver heads were larger.

I was estimating.  That slotline was small.  Seemed smaller than the ball, and yes was smaller than the comparable persimmons.  Anyway you could not go too hard at that one. 

[smashdn]

My Hogan 4 wood is a tiny little thing.  A little shallower face to rear like a hybrid but also narrow hosel to toe as well.  Hits a high ball though that lands soft.  Don't have much call to hit it though.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

TXG has a video up with a Callaway Tour Trailer walkthrough, and they go through all the different driver heads they have for their tour players. It’s very possible that tweaks to meet any MLR regarding driver heads would be more significant but it’s why I feel OEMs talking about impacts from having two lines is largely blowing smoke.

 

Also, Cantlay had some interesting comments, definitely some ammo for the anti-rollbackers.

[clevited]

20 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

TXG has a video up with a Callaway Tour Trailer walkthrough, and they go through all the different driver heads they have for their tour players. It’s very possible that tweaks to meet any MLR regarding driver heads would be more significant but it’s why I feel OEMs talking about impacts from having two lines is largely blowing smoke.

 

Also, Cantlay had some interesting comments, definitely some ammo for the anti-rollbackers.

 

I don't think it is blowing smoke at all, there is wasted money and therefore revenue in a separate line that likely won't be sold at any significant volume, and won't give them any advertising clout through their use on tour.  It is more than just the manufacturing costs as was discussed earlier.  It is marketing, brand perception everything.  

 

Post the video though if you don't mind, maybe with any time stamps for things you thought were interesting.

[buckeyefl]

17 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I don't think it is blowing smoke at all, there is wasted money and therefore revenue in a separate line that likely won't be sold at any significant volume, and won't give them any advertising clout through their use on tour.  It is more than just the manufacturing costs as was discussed earlier.  It is marketing, brand perception everything.  

 

Post the video though if you don't mind, maybe with any time stamps for things you thought were interesting.

 

 

In a nutshell they showed different driver heads and talked about having so many so that they could give the player the starting line they wanted to see.

 

They are your PR men so you want them to have whatever makes them better and more confident but that's a far cry from designing different heads for the public. The public whos average handicap is... and if you gave them 100 balls they might be lucky to hit two in the same spot with driver. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by buckeyefl

[buckeyefl]

“I think it’s really long. I think it’s also strange to me that we play so many golf courses that all they do is add length to the golf courses. It’s so surprising to me that the golf courses that none of the guys who hit it far, they don’t go to Hilton Head, they don’t go to Colonial, they don’t go to the short, small, dogleggy tree-lined golf courses,” Cantlay explained.

 

“The way we combat the distance, the way these architects seem to think they want to combat distance is by taking all the trees out and playing it 7,600 yards and put the tees way back and all the par-5s are at 600 yards. I don’t think that makes any sense.

 

“I’m surprised every time I come to a golf course where they say it’s recently been redone and then there’s no real shaping of golf shots. It’s just how far can you hit it and grab your driver on every hole and hit it as high and hit it as far as you possibly can. If you can hit it 315 yards, you’ve taken out all the bunkers, and you’re maybe in the rough, but it’s way better in the rough with a 9- or 8-iron than it is maybe in the fairway with a 5-iron if you were to lay up to the fat part of the fairway before the bunkers.”

 

“I’m so surprised that they haven’t figured it out, and it just seems like we’re getting more and more of the same bomb-it-as-far-as-you-can golf courses week after week.”

[Simpsonia]

27 minutes ago, buckeyefl said:

“I think it’s really long. I think it’s also strange to me that we play so many golf courses that all they do is add length to the golf courses. It’s so surprising to me that the golf courses that none of the guys who hit it far, they don’t go to Hilton Head, they don’t go to Colonial, they don’t go to the short, small, dogleggy tree-lined golf courses,” Cantlay explained.

 

“The way we combat the distance, the way these architects seem to think they want to combat distance is by taking all the trees out and playing it 7,600 yards and put the tees way back and all the par-5s are at 600 yards. I don’t think that makes any sense.

 

“I’m surprised every time I come to a golf course where they say it’s recently been redone and then there’s no real shaping of golf shots. It’s just how far can you hit it and grab your driver on every hole and hit it as high and hit it as far as you possibly can. If you can hit it 315 yards, you’ve taken out all the bunkers, and you’re maybe in the rough, but it’s way better in the rough with a 9- or 8-iron than it is maybe in the fairway with a 5-iron if you were to lay up to the fat part of the fairway before the bunkers.”

 

“I’m so surprised that they haven’t figured it out, and it just seems like we’re getting more and more of the same bomb-it-as-far-as-you-can golf courses week after week.”

 

So to sum it up, it's as much the fault of course architects for having zero vision in design for enabling the the bomb and gouge arms race. So the analogy would be in auto racing if the response to cars getting faster and faster and faster was for course architects to start removing turns and widening the straightaways to accommodate the speed, when in reality they should have been doing the opposite by narrowing and shortening the straightaways and add more tight turns.

 

Makes sense to me. Rather than limiting the equipment to a certain era of technology, they should design with it in mind with natural limitations at which the new tech can be utilized to its fullest, which creates a new era of the sport (ie modern F1). So rather than limiting the ball flight and equipment, plant a ton of trees, make fairways narrow and hazards really hazardous. Make pros have to really plan and plot their way around a course. Transform golf for the next century rather than freezing it in the past. 

[clevited]

36 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

So to sum it up, it's as much the fault of course architects for having zero vision in design for enabling the the bomb and gouge arms race. So the analogy would be in auto racing if the response to cars getting faster and faster and faster was for course architects to start removing turns and widening the straightaways to accommodate the speed, when in reality they should have been doing the opposite by narrowing and shortening the straightaways and add more tight turns.

 

Makes sense to me. Rather than limiting the equipment to a certain era of technology, they should design with it in mind with natural limitations at which the new tech can be utilized to its fullest, which creates a new era of the sport (ie modern F1). So rather than limiting the ball flight and equipment, plant a ton of trees, make fairways narrow and hazards really hazardous. Make pros have to really plan and plot their way around a course. Transform golf for the next century rather than freezing it in the past. 

I think it is as much a tour product result as anything.  The tour promotes heavily bombers, and hitting it far.  The consumer is also at fault for wanting that so much.  The tour would have to decide it wants to create a product more like it was 30+years ago and that would probably have a domino effect on everyone since they have so much influence.  They aren't going to do that.  In short, there is no problem other than optics.  Go play a tight short course for a better iron heavy venue, go play a wide open course for a grip it and rip it type venue.  Go play a course that has a bit of both if you want that. Tour is going to play venues it wants and they will be set up how they want and if they perceive that to mean making them bomber heavy style courses so be it. That is apparently what the people want to watch. 

[Simpsonia]

4 minutes ago, clevited said:

I think it is as much a tour product result as anything.  The tour promotes heavily bombers, and hitting it far.  The consumer is also at fault for wanting that so much.  The tour would have to decide it wants to create a product more like it was 30+years ago and that would probably have a domino effect on everyone since they have so much influence.  They aren't going to do that.  In short, there is no problem other than optics.  Go play a tight short course for a better iron heavy venue, go play a wide open course for a grip it and rip it type venue.  Go play a course that has a bit of both if you want that. Tour is going to play venues it wants and they will be set up how they want and if they perceive that to mean making them bomber heavy style courses so be it. That is apparently what the people want to watch. 

 

I think part of it is that they are still really stuck in the past when it comes to the TV production aspect. It's actually kind of hard to show how difficult a course is with old school camera towers and cameramen on the ground. It's a lot easier to produce an event where you just film a ball going real far on a straight fairway. What they need to do is start embracing real time drone photography so they can have a real time elevated view of the whole hole, and show all the contours and pitfalls that await, along with real time shot tracers so that they analysts can really start to give insight on how/why that landing spot is good or bad, and how they might have to approach the next shot. That would make smaller, twistier courses much more TV worthy. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, buckeyefl said:

“I think it’s really long. I think it’s also strange to me that we play so many golf courses that all they do is add length to the golf courses. It’s so surprising to me that the golf courses that none of the guys who hit it far, they don’t go to Hilton Head, they don’t go to Colonial, they don’t go to the short, small, dogleggy tree-lined golf courses,” Cantlay explained.

 

“The way we combat the distance, the way these architects seem to think they want to combat distance is by taking all the trees out and playing it 7,600 yards and put the tees way back and all the par-5s are at 600 yards. I don’t think that makes any sense.

 

“I’m surprised every time I come to a golf course where they say it’s recently been redone and then there’s no real shaping of golf shots. It’s just how far can you hit it and grab your driver on every hole and hit it as high and hit it as far as you possibly can. If you can hit it 315 yards, you’ve taken out all the bunkers, and you’re maybe in the rough, but it’s way better in the rough with a 9- or 8-iron than it is maybe in the fairway with a 5-iron if you were to lay up to the fat part of the fairway before the bunkers.”

 

“I’m so surprised that they haven’t figured it out, and it just seems like we’re getting more and more of the same bomb-it-as-far-as-you-can golf courses week after week.”

I agree with him completely.   If they played harbor town weekly.  You’d see equipment change to suit that.  

[gvogel]

2 hours ago, buckeyefl said:

“I think it’s really long. I think it’s also strange to me that we play so many golf courses that all they do is add length to the golf courses. It’s so surprising to me that the golf courses that none of the guys who hit it far, they don’t go to Hilton Head, they don’t go to Colonial, they don’t go to the short, small, dogleggy tree-lined golf courses,” Cantlay explained.

 

“The way we combat the distance, the way these architects seem to think they want to combat distance is by taking all the trees out and playing it 7,600 yards and put the tees way back and all the par-5s are at 600 yards. I don’t think that makes any sense.

 

“I’m surprised every time I come to a golf course where they say it’s recently been redone and then there’s no real shaping of golf shots. It’s just how far can you hit it and grab your driver on every hole and hit it as high and hit it as far as you possibly can. If you can hit it 315 yards, you’ve taken out all the bunkers, and you’re maybe in the rough, but it’s way better in the rough with a 9- or 8-iron than it is maybe in the fairway with a 5-iron if you were to lay up to the fat part of the fairway before the bunkers.”

 

“I’m so surprised that they haven’t figured it out, and it just seems like we’re getting more and more of the same bomb-it-as-far-as-you-can golf courses week after week.”

That is Patrick Cantlay's opinion.  Other players' opinions may vary.

 

I wonder why shorter players don't play Hilton Head, Colonial, etc?  Or maybe they do, and Patrick hasn't noticed.

[ShortGolfer]

A distance based game is easy to convey on TV.  It also makes manufacturers happy because they can sell expensive drivers that promise more distance.

The shafts are too long so nobody is satisfied with their driver unless they are the 1% that cut theirs down to a manageable length.  Which helps sell more drivers!

 

It is very cost effective create real time graphics to show distances on TV to fill air time.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by ShortGolfer

[buckeyefl]

1 hour ago, gvogel said:

That is Patrick Cantlay's opinion.  Other players' opinions may vary.

 

I wonder why shorter players don't play Hilton Head, Colonial, etc?  Or maybe they do, and Patrick hasn't noticed.

 

Ummm they do because they feel like its a place they can win. Maybe you meant "do"?

 

 

[gvogel]

12 minutes ago, buckeyefl said:

 

Ummm they do because they feel like its a place they can win. Maybe you meant "do"?

 

 

You are correct.  I had to re-read Cantlay's quote a couple of times.  Thanks.

[bladehunter]

On 8/15/2022 at 10:26 PM, Hickory4ever said:

The original TM metal drivers from 1979 were indeed smaller than their wooden predecessors and were around 140cc. I still have a few and take them out for a round. They still play well.

Yep. I have a ram version of that. Simply tiny. But I can absolutely smoke it. It’s alot like a small but heavy iron.  More mass behind the ball , so if you hit it relative middle it’s actually very easy to hit. 
 

 

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

A distance based game is easy to convey on TV.  It also makes manufacturers happy because they can sell expensive drivers that promise more distance.

The shafts are too long so nobody is satisfied with their driver unless they are the 1% that cut theirs down to a manageable length.  Which helps sell more drivers!

 

It is very cost effective create real time graphics to show distances on TV to fill air time.

 

 

 

Shh, don't tell anybody, just between you and me, I choke down on my driver when I absolutely must hit a fairway.  Comes out a hair lower but typically much straighter.  Give up maybe 15-20 yards.

[clevited]

9 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Shh, don't tell anybody, just between you and me, I choke down on my driver when I absolutely must hit a fairway.  Comes out a hair lower but typically much straighter.  Give up maybe 15-20 yards.

 

3 wood for the win.

[Double Mocha Man]

9 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Shh, don't tell anybody, just between you and me, I choke down on my driver when I absolutely must hit a fairway.  Comes out a hair lower but typically much straighter.  Give up maybe 15-20 yards.

 

Didn't Anthony Kim choke down on his driver but still hit it as long as the other pros?  I'm putting in range time tomorrow morning and will try to emulate Kim.  Might be difficult to find a big a** belt buckle, though.

[smashdn]

7 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

3 wood for the win.

 

Literally the worst club in my bag.  My miss with driver tends to be thin or a top.  A top with a 3 wood is just not pretty.  I am way better off to just choke down and swing driver like I am playing in the wind.  Still gets it out there 260-270 but straight.

[farmer]

Last time I went to the Colonial, Phil won, DJ was there, as was Bubba.

[clevited]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:28 PM, smashdn said:

 

Literally the worst club in my bag.  My miss with driver tends to be thin or a top.  A top with a 3 wood is just not pretty.  I am way better off to just choke down and swing driver like I am playing in the wind.  Still gets it out there 260-270 but straight.

 

Work on your 3 wood then lol.  They are great for less than driver.  Can hit it full and know where it will end up where as a half cocked driver might be less predictable and move more offline due to the lower loft inducing more axis tilt.  I do enjoy bunting a driver down there but I have been burned more than a couple times with it rolling out much too far and into a hazard I didn't think was reachable.  I literally couldn't hit it softer but it came out so low and ran so long it was crazy.  3 wood I know the carry max I will get and I know it will land much steeper with how high I hit it and it will stop much sooner.

[smashdn]

I just have more consistency with the bunted driver.  I play very few courses where I am worried about running into a hazard.  The few that do have things I need to stay short of I would just play a 3 iron.  I hit my 3i, roll and everything around 250.

[airjammer]

History has been made

[So_Cal]

3 hours ago, airjammer said:

History has been made

It’s not the equipment it’s the athletes.  🤪.  These guys could play in the NFL and NBA.  🤦‍♂️ 

 

Remember the outliers in the current generations are always the norm in the next.  A tour with many Brysons is the future.  I prefer to see a variety of skill and the ball should be rolled back.  I know many of you just prefer driver wedge though. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by So_Cal
Spelling

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, airjammer said:

History has been made

All depends on how you look at it:

Carry distance average 282.5 Yards......slow the fairways down.

Only 10 players average 300 yards carry. 2022....Only one is a prolific winner, Rory.

 

Golf is just fine. IMO

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, So_Cal said:

It’s not the equipment it’s the athletes.  🤪.  These guys could play in the NFM and NBA.  🤦‍♂️ 

 

remember the outliers always become the norm in the next generation.  A tour with many Brysons is the future.  I prefer to see a variety of skill and the ball should be rolled back.  I know many of you just prefer driver wedge though. 

A future tour of Bryson's is a future tour of back injuries.......

[So_Cal]

30 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

A future tour of Bryson's is a future tour of back injuries.......

I agree, but if it’s lucrative for ten years it’s worth it.  Don’t need a 30 year career. 

[Double Mocha Man]

3 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

I agree, but if it’s lucrative for ten years it’s worth it.  Don’t need a 30 year career. 

 

Play pro golf for 10 years. Retire and play golf with your buddies at the muni. Join the Clubhouse Grille on Golf WRX.

[Titleist99]

5 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

I agree, but if it’s lucrative for ten years it’s worth it.  Don’t need a 30 year career. 

Swinging out of your shoes is not sustainable for two years yet alone ten.....IMO