distance debate

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, gvogel said:

Justin Thomas was commenting yesterday about how difficult it is to walk Augusta.  And one of his reasons is that they have to walk 50 to 75 yards, or more, behind where the tees were originally set up.  Then, after they hit their drives, they pass those tees again on the way to their balls. 

Thanks you.  Was going to say.  In 92 they’re playing where some of the ladies tees are now.  I mean tiger was hitting pw into 15 in 97.  

[Titleist99]

9 minutes ago, Danielson said:

It feels like the tour has a million dials to turn to make golf more interesting, and won't turn any of them because the pros will complain about it. And I don't blame them, it's how they make a living and a rule change has the potential to really change the earning potential for a ton of players. From a viewers standpoint where I don't actually care whether a guy makes 1M or 20M, I wish they'd either give courses more bite or roll back the ball. These players are too good to play with gear that's this good on courses that aren't setup specifically to be tough. I think you'd still have the spectacle of guys mashing the ball farther than you could dream of, but the approach shots would require more imagination.

 

For the people who don't want any changes, where do you see pro golf going in the future? Courses just keep getting longer and longer until they run out of land or have to build new 8000+ yard tour stops? I don't think it's imminent but eventually they're going to have to do something otherwise the TV product is going to get more and more boring.

Don't believe the hype....courses don't have to get longer.....course  need to get tougher.

Limits are already in place....

 

Golf, especially television golf has never been more popular......It would be foolish to mess with it's popularity based on your nostalgia.

 

22 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

https://www.liveabout.com/what-are-the-yardages-at-augusta-national-during-the-masters-1564592

And we know lengthening doesn't work.....You can see the years they tried to Tiger Proof ANGC.     LOL!

[bladehunter]

Just now, Titleist99 said:

Don't believe the hype....courses don't have to get longer.....course  need to get tougher.

Limits are already in place....

 

Golf, especially television golf has never been more popular......It would be foolish to mess with it's popularity based on your nostalgia.

 

And we know lengthening doesn't work.....You can see the years they tried to Tiger Proof ANGC.     LOL!

I don’t think you can judge todays boom as real. It’s a bubble. You’ll see once tiger hangs it up. The tv numbers will plummet.  

[Titleist99]

12 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I don’t think you can judge todays boom as real. It’s a bubble. You’ll see once tiger hangs it up. The tv numbers will plummet.  

"The tv numbers will plummet". ....And that's based on what?

 

PGATOUR has a lot of potential stars to carry the tour for years to come unless they do something stupid ......like, roll the ball back.     (LOL!)

[Marty86]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

"The tv numbers will plummet". ....And that's based on what?

 

PGATOUR has a lot of potential stars to carry the tour for years to come unless they do something stupid ......like, roll the ball back.     (LOL!)

 

Dont underestimate what Tiger does to viewing numbers. He brings in equally his fans, people who don't care about golf but care about him, and his haters (and there are plenty here as well). 

 

While I agree golf is in a good spot with a lot of young players who will carry on the sport. But to say that numbers won't dwindle somewhat when the GOAT retires is just lying to themselves. 

[Jim53]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

"The tv numbers will plummet". ....And that's based on what?

 

PGATOUR has a lot of potential stars to carry the tour for years to come unless they do something stupid ......like, roll the ball back.     (LOL!)

I am a die hard golfer and golf fan, a pure hack for sure but I enjoy everything about the game and the Equipment to play it. BUT I really can't sit and watch most of these "young guns" drag their butts slowly around a Course, maybe switch back and forth from something else to see the score etc. Sure if some of the bigger names are playing decently it is interesting but I guess I am just spoiled. 

But if the Cat is in the field I will watch it just to see if he get around, I have been lucky enough to see his game from the beginning and still remember some of the incredible shots he would pull off and you just expected him to make every putt and he made a royal $#@t ton of them. Which in hindsight might be the most impressive thing he did week in, week out. 

 

The point I am trying to make is that yes the numbers will not be nearly the same once he is gone as I bet a lot of folks feel the same way I do, love him, hate him or just appreciate what he does it is a fact.

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, woodriff said:

When you say manipulated how do you mean. As in slight changes from year to year? 

I mean everything, from adding length to dyeing the brown/bare splotches of fairway grass green. 

 

This article has some interesting history and prominent changes to all 18 holes:

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/complete-changes-to-augusta-national

 

"The late golf writer Charles Price said it best: Augusta National was never the most revolutionary golf-course design in America, but it certainly was the most evolutionary. Of course, it was evolution sped up considerably by man. The moment the inaugural tournament concluded in 1934, club officials were assessing ways to improve their Georgia peach."

 

"Even Jones didn't realize the drumbeat of change would never cease at Augusta. Champion golfers, course architects, even longtime Masters chairman Clifford Roberts subsequently suggested modifications that were implemented. As time ticked on, holes were further altered to address playability, agronomics, spectator convenience and, most recently, 21st-century club and ball technology."

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, Jim53 said:

I am a die hard golfer and golf fan, a pure hack for sure but I enjoy everything about the game and the Equipment to play it. BUT I really can't sit and watch most of these "young guns" drag their butts slowly around a Course, maybe switch back and forth from something else to see the score etc. Sure if some of the bigger names are playing decently it is interesting but I guess I am just spoiled. 

But if the Cat is in the field I will watch it just to see if he get around, I have been lucky enough to see his game from the beginning and still remember some of the incredible shots he would pull off and you just expected him to make every putt and he made a royal $#@t ton of them. Which in hindsight might be the most impressive thing he did week in, week out. 

 

The point I am trying to make is that yes the numbers will not be nearly the same once he is gone as I bet a lot of folks feel the same way I do, love him, hate him or just appreciate what he does it is a fact.

If you truly believe that, then you haven't been paying attention.........

Tiger hadn't won a major tournament in eleven years, before his car crash he hadn't played tournament golf in what two years......Tiger has never played a whole lot on tour.

 

In the last nine years, Tiger Woods has only played sixty tournaments on tour and that's including cuts and withdrawals.

They have Korean players that play that many in two years.......

Jack and Tiger was/are generational talents.....but we will have a lot of Phils though.

*Yes, I know that Tiger won the tour championship and the Masters in the 2018-19 season. He only played twelve tournaments then.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Titleist99

[bladehunter]

4 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

"The tv numbers will plummet". ....And that's based on what?

 

PGATOUR has a lot of potential stars to carry the tour for years to come unless they do something stupid ......like, roll the ball back.     (LOL!)

We shall see in a couple years.  They have no draw going really. I mean they aren’t lining up for Sheffler or anyone else.  

[bladehunter]

26 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

If you truly believe that, then you haven't been paying attention.........

Tiger hadn't won a major tournament in eleven years, before his car crash he hadn't played tournament golf in what two years......Tiger has never played a whole lot on tour.

 

In the last nine years, Tiger Woods has only played sixty tournaments on tour and that's including cuts and withdrawals.

They have Korean players that play that many in two years.......

Jack and Tiger was/are generational talents.....but we will have a lot of Phils though.

 

Yes but we have the hope.  The hope that he will play.  Whne that hope is killed attention will fall off. 

[Titleist99]

16 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yes but we have the hope.  The hope that he will play.  Whne that hope is killed attention will fall off. 

Nah, golf is like a drug, once hooked it's hard turn back......very addictive. IMO... LOL!

[Titleist99]

19 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

We shall see in a couple years.  They have no draw going really. I mean they aren’t lining up for Sheffler or anyone else.  

Funny that you should mention Scottie S. .....If he wins the Masters, he'll be the next big thing in golf. At that time people will be lining up for his autograph.

 

He's my bold prediction...

[oikos1]

Just now, Titleist99 said:

Nah, golf is like a drug, once hooked it's hard turn back......very addictive. IMO... LOL!

Exactly.  Golf, in terms of viewership, has never been as popular as the other big sports.  Tiger gave it an unprecedented increase in popularity and the Tour is banking a lot of extra cash.  When he goes, Tour golf will be fine.  Maybe not as lucrative, but it will be fine.

[Jim53]

55 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

If you truly believe that, then you haven't been paying attention.........

Tiger hadn't won a major tournament in eleven years, before his car crash he hadn't played tournament golf in what two years......Tiger has never played a whole lot on tour.

 

In the last nine years, Tiger Woods has only played sixty tournaments on tour and that's including cuts and withdrawals.

They have Korean players that play that many in two years.......

Jack and Tiger was/are generational talents.....but we will have a lot of Phils though.

*Yes, I know that Tiger won the tour championship and the Masters in the 2018-19 season. He only played twelve tournaments then.

Ha ha, doesn't matter, I stick to what I posted... an opinion.

You enjoy the slugs, I won't judge you.

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, Marty86 said:

 

Dont underestimate what Tiger does to viewing numbers. He brings in equally his fans, people who don't care about golf but care about him, and his haters (and there are plenty here as well). 

 

While I agree golf is in a good spot with a lot of young players who will carry on the sport. But to say that numbers won't dwindle somewhat when the GOAT retires is just lying to themselves. 

Again, Tiger hasn't played that much.....go check out the number of events that he's played in the last seven or eight years........then come back to me and tell me who's lying to themselves.

 

Tiger was Major-less from 2008 til 2019....

[Marty86]

19 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Again, Tiger hasn't played that much.....go check out the number of events that he's played in the last seven or eight years........then come back to me and tell me who's lying to themselves.

 

Tiger was Major-less from 2008 til 2019....

have you maybe pulled ratings from the events he’s in vs the ones he missed? It’s like a 20% uptick. That’s massive. 

[oikos1]

24 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Again, Tiger hasn't played that much.....go check out the number of events that he's played in the last seven or eight years........then come back to me and tell me who's lying to themselves.

 

Tiger was Major-less from 2008 til 2019....

Lol.  Almost pointless to argue anymore.  Don't forget, golf is dying because the ball goes too far, golf courses are rendered obsolete, television viewership is down, golf courses are closing, not enough kids play and Tiger doesn't play anymore.  🤣🤣

 

[MtlJeff]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

We shall see in a couple years.  They have no draw going really. I mean they aren’t lining up for Sheffler or anyone else.  

 

Yes, but you know nothing about Elephants.

[bladehunter]

2 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

Yes, but you know nothing about Elephants.

It’s true.  I actually know more about the woolly mammoths than elephants. I watched a special on the Russian tusk miners in Siberia blasting out the frozen 🥶 mammoths and learned that they have found frozen specimens  that provided complete DNA sequences….they have complete intact  animals frozen with fur etc still on.   they believe we can maybe produce some more mammoths soon.  No doubt a new market for trophy hunting will emerge from that.  
 

elephants 🐘 … only thing I know for sure is - they  do not like lions.   Here’s one walking through a whole pride  , trunk swinging in the breeze , you know their cousins , the honey badgers? ….. well this guy is same. Says “ want some ? get some ….”   
 

 

[Chunkitgood]

No doubt hitting the golf ball long is the primo skill in golf.  Hitting the ball to a distant target is what it’s all about.

 

But…

 

Hitting a ball long and straight takes more skill and different skills.  Hitting a ball long and straight with clubs with less MOI and balls that spin more when hit hard takes greater and different skills even more so.

 

That’s why they call the current game one dimensional.

 

As observers we are depriving ourselves of a display of greater skill and different skills.  In the long run it is boring, as the long drives become routine.

 

 

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, Chunkitgood said:

No doubt hitting the golf ball long is the primo skill in golf.  Hitting the ball to a distant target is what it’s all about.

 

But…

 

Hitting a ball long and straight takes more skill and different skills.  Hitting a ball long and straight with clubs with less MOI and balls that spin more when hit hard takes greater and different skills even more so.

 

That’s why they call the current game one dimensional.

 

As observers we are depriving ourselves of a display of greater skill and different skills.  In the long run it is boring, as the long drives become routine.

 

 

Boring?  Sure, some PGA tournaments are boring just as some NFL games are boring, some MLB games are boring, some Nascar races are boring and some NBA games are boring,.  All golf boring?  Do you really think the Masters is going to be boring this week? 

[So_Cal]

I understand why many people are against minimizing distance gain.  In my mind I only want it done for the very top level - tour and maybe too am events.  Why?  I think being skilled with mid and long irons into par 4s has always been a part of golf and I want that to continue. 
 

Plus I love seeing the classic courses host majors.  I’ll probably never play a course like Merion but it means something to me to see a major there.  The historical sites mean something.  Roll the ball back a bit for the tour and many of the game’s great courses can remain venues, just like the were for Bobby Jones.  Personally I don’t want to see 9,000 yard courses to test iron games into par 4s.  JMO.  Golf will survive either way.  Cheers 

[munichop]

Merion can still be used for majors just like Inverness, woman’s majors.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, munichop said:

Merion can still be used for majors just like Inverness, woman’s majors.

Merion  is the mens US Open site in 2030.   And, just like the 2013 event they will need to restrict the number of fans and media because there is not enough room.  That is the biggest reason some old courses no longer host big events.  Not enough room for all of the infrastructure.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Shilgy

[Titleist99]

On 4/7/2022 at 11:27 PM, Shilgy said:

Merion  is the mens US Open site in 2030.   And, just like the 2013 event they will need to restrict the number of fans and media because there is not enough room.  That is the biggest reason some old courses no longer host big events.  Not enough room for all of the infrastructure.

You can tell them the real truth a million times and they'll still blame the golf ball.....LOL!

[munichop]

The USGA has a video for recommended tees based on driving distance. One of the methods is 28 times the average driving distance. The current Pga tour average is 296.9 yds. Using that method the course should be 8313 yds. So the best players in the world never play a course as long as they should. No wonder these guys are good. 
They actually are closer to the tee it forward guidelines which take 1000 yards off the driver method above. 
One interesting aspect of this distance evolution is the increased speed of greens and crazier hole locations. So the pros take much longer on the greens because the putting is more difficult. Also the green speeds are unsustainable for everyday conditions and more costly to prepare. 
I watched the college golf at Pasatiempo last week and if you want to see ANGC greens on drugs look at that course. It also has poa annua to contend with on the surfaces.  Another Mackenzie masterpiece with green speeds way too fast for the slopes. Some of the players three putted 6 times in one round. It is only 6700 yards. 
Distance alone doesn’t remove all the difficulty in golf but when it is disproportionate to other skills the setups are turned into theater of the absurd to protect scores.  Last week was a perfect example. Merion is another. It isn’t long enough to challenge the best pros so it was tricked up to protect par. It will be again in 2030.

[milesgiles]

21 minutes ago, munichop said:

The USGA has a video for recommended tees based on driving distance. One of the methods is 28 times the average driving distance. The current Pga tour average is 296.9 yds. Using that method the course should be 8313 yds. So the best players in the world never play a course as long as they should. No wonder these guys are good. 
They actually are closer to the tee it forward guidelines which take 1000 yards off the driver method above. 
One interesting aspect of this distance evolution is the increased speed of greens and crazier hole locations. So the pros take much longer on the greens because the putting is more difficult. Also the green speeds are unsustainable for everyday conditions and more costly to prepare. 
I watched the college golf at Pasatiempo last week and if you want to see ANGC greens on drugs look at that course. It also has poa annua to contend with on the surfaces.  Another Mackenzie masterpiece with green speeds way too fast for the slopes. Some of the players three putted 6 times in one round. It is only 6700 yards. 
Distance alone doesn’t remove all the difficulty in golf but when it is disproportionate to other skills the setups are turned into theater of the absurd to protect scores.  Last week was a perfect example. Merion is another. It isn’t long enough to challenge the best pros so it was tricked up to protect par. It will be again in 2030.

 

you can tell them the truth a million times..

[Shilgy]

Yeah, not sure where the 28 times driver came from.  250 would be 7000 yards but then they have this as well. Which is more in line with the 36 times 5 iron method. 
 

In 2011, the PGA of America and USGA issued a set of recommendations designed to encourage golfers to play from appropriate yardages. These guidelines are based on golfers' average driving distance. So find your driving distance, then see what yardage these two organizations recommend:

 

Avg. drive	Recommended Tees
300 yards	7,150-7,400 yards
275 yards	6,700-6,900 yards
250 yards	6,200-6,400 yards
225 yards	5,800-6,000 yards
200 yards	5,200-5,400 yards
175 yards	4,400-4,600 yards
150 yards	3,500-3,700 yards
125 yards	2,800-3,000 yards
100 yards	2,100-2,300 yards

[MUNIGRIT]

I just barely heard this 28 times distance. That is the last thing we need. People always over exaggerate their distance anyway. 

 

For those that are pissed that .001 percent of the golfers in the world hit the ball too far, what year would make you happy in driving distance?

[milesgiles]

57 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

I just barely heard this 28 times distance. That is the last thing we need. People always over exaggerate their distance anyway. 

 

For those that are pissed that .001 percent of the golfers in the world hit the ball too far, what year would make you happy in driving distance?

 

how many times do we have to say the same thing? Its the DISPERSION, or lack of it, that the oversize driver enables. You can hit 400 yards for all I care, as long as its with a traditional size clubhead, not a toaster.