PGA Tour non-profit status

[Pastit]

2 hours ago, cardia10 said:

The only part I disagree with is that the PGA Tour treats their players better. The tour repeatedly lied to players about purses and tv revenue as well as stating there wasn't enough money for insurance for players and caddies. The tour has also called them independent contractors for years to prevent having to pay benefits while the tour leadership and staff are paid in the millions with premium health plans on the backs of the players that play the game. The players leaving are cutting out the middle man that has been withholding profits from the products that produce the profits. The top leadership at the PGA Tour has fumbled the ball and I think it will get worse as soon as the Fed Ex Cup is over. There is a reason that veterans are bailing as it is them who has been constantly lied to. The young guys still are seeing with rose colored glasses.

There appears to be a remarkable inconsistency between your first and second sentences ?

[cardia10]

2 hours ago, Pastit said:

There appears to be a remarkable inconsistency between your first and second sentences ?

I'll break it down then,

SENTENCE 1. The only part I disagree with is that the PGA Tour treats their players better.(original poster said the PGA Tour treats their players better than LIV, I Disagree)

 

SENTENCE 2. The tour repeatedly lied to players about purses and tv revenue as well as stating there wasn't enough money for insurance for players and caddies. (this is the reason I think the tour treats their players badly as told to me directly by 2 separate players at the Open at St Andrews.)

Edited July 28, 2022 by cardia10

[Pastit]

1 minute ago, cardia10 said:

I'll break it down then,

SENTENCE 1. The only part I disagree with is that the PGA Tour treats their players better.(original poster said the PGA Tour treats their players better than LIV, I Disagree)

 

SENTENCE 2. The tour repeatedly lied to players about purses and tv revenue as well as stating there wasn't enough money for insurance for players and caddies. (this is the reason I think the tour treats their players badly as told to me directly by 2 separate players at the Open at St Andrews.)

Got you. Thanks for the courtesy.  

[cardia10]

1 minute ago, Pastit said:

Got you. Thanks for the courtesy.  

No problem, If you just read my comment first before seeing the prior, it is easy to get lost in this one. lol

[Chunkitgood]

On 7/26/2022 at 5:02 PM, Soloman1 said:

This is about the tax-exempt, nonprofit status of the tour. The topic will likely get locked or moderated by bringing the “competing” tour up.

 

A tax-exempt, nonprofit is prohibited from acting in any manner as a for profit company would act. A chamber of commerce cannot take any action to prohibit members from joining a separate but similar business league. A tax-exempt, nonprofit business league may not take any action to stifle competition in any manner similar to how a for profit company would act.

 

That’s written in the tax code, not my opinion.

 

My opinion is that either the tour successfully lobbies to have a special rule created, or it will face significant government or legislative scrutiny forcing the tour to become a for profit organization, like MLB, NFL, NBA, NASCAR, etc.

 

And what is wrong with that?

 

 

 

Now, where in the tax code is all this?

 

I’d have to see it to believe it.

 

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

I'll break it down then,

SENTENCE 1. The only part I disagree with is that the PGA Tour treats their players better.(original poster said the PGA Tour treats their players better than LIV, I Disagree)

 

SENTENCE 2. The tour repeatedly lied to players about purses and tv revenue as well as stating there wasn't enough money for insurance for players and caddies. (this is the reason I think the tour treats their players badly as told to me directly by 2 separate players at the Open at St Andrews.)

 

So, it’s over benefits?  Really?

 

People get offended when they are told they don’t understand things.  I understand that.  But it doesn’t seem hard to understand that the money taken in by the revolving group of the best golf players in the world has ballooned under the auspices of the PGATour.

 

Insurance?

 

Gimme a break.
 

 

 

[cardia10]

11 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

Now, where in the tax code is all this?

 

I’d have to see it to believe it.

 

 

So, it’s over benefits?  Really?

 

People get offended when they are told they don’t understand things.  I understand that.  But it doesn’t seem hard to understand that the money taken in by the revolving group of the best golf players in the world has ballooned under the auspices of the PGATour.

 

Insurance?

 

Gimme a break.
 

 

 

The increased money is 100% due to Tiger Woods and has little to nothing to do with the PGA Tour. The players I spoke to said it was all about honesty and trust and that tour leadership had no integrity. If you already have it made, why put up with people you can't trust. Get paid more to play less. Pretty simple really.

[2bGood]

8 hours ago, cardia10 said:

If the PGA was honest to players and treated them well, there would be no competition and players wouldn't leave. The tour hasn't listened to the player council but if you talk to players off social media, they will tell you exactly what I've said. That is how I know as I have heard these things directly. They don't trust Monehan at all as he has lied to them multiple times about inability or money to increase purses, then, all the sudden, he finds all this new money once a competitor comes to light.

I disagree with your first sentence. The guys are leaving for much much more money and not leaving because they don’t like the policies/rules or honesty of the PGAT. 

[RichieHunt]

9 hours ago, cardia10 said:

If the PGA was honest to players and treated them well, there would be no competition and players wouldn't leave.

 

You can't be serious.

 

The Tour can't afford to give players $100M contracts to play and then have no cut with a minimum payout of $120K.

 

The players are leaving for the money and quite frankly I can't blame them.  The LIV Tour is able to give them that much money because they are backed by the Saudi government whom has unlimited amounts of money.

 

The LIV Tour isn't a feasible model for anybody outside of those where money is no object.

 

And the Tour has to listen to the player's council because, in the end, the players have all of the power. 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

RH

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

3 hours ago, cardia10 said:

The increased money is 100% due to Tiger Woods and has little to nothing to do with the PGA Tour. The players I spoke to said it was all about honesty and trust and that tour leadership had no integrity. If you already have it made, why put up with people you can't trust. Get paid more to play less. Pretty simple really.

Where exactly did Woods play when he became world famous and a billionaire (or whatever)?
 

Was the stage he performed on just possibly, maybe, the PGATour?

[Pastit]

7 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Where exactly did Woods play when he became world famous and a billionaire (or whatever)?
 

Was the stage he performed on just possibly, maybe, the PGATour?

With European Tour approved appearance money for trips to - guess where ?

[cardia10]

4 hours ago, Pastit said:

With European Tour approved appearance money for trips to - guess where ?

Exactly! The tour has allowed Tiger and other players  to do this for years without a release. Going to be hard in court to show you have reason to only selectively enforce a rule. The tour better hope Finau stays put or we all may soon have a shot at living our our dream…unfortunately shot link won’t care about our message board stats. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by cardia10

[jdl]

33 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

Exactly! The tour has allowed Tiger and other players  to do this for years without a release. Going to be hard in court to show you have reason to only selectively enforce a rule. The tour better hope Finau stays put or we all may soon have a shot at living our our dream…unfortunately shot link won’t care about our message board stats. 

 

[aus10KC]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

Exactly! The tour has allowed Tiger and other players  to do this for years without a release. Going to be hard in court to show you have reason to only selectively enforce a rule. The tour better hope Finau stays put or we all may soon have a shot at living our our dream…unfortunately shot link won’t care about our message board stats. 

 

You know for a fact that Tiger played in opposite field events without a release? Or were there not a PGAT event opposite the overseas money grab he signed up for ? I'm sure the membership rules get changed overtime, however the release is only for events that are scheduled opposite a PGAT event, if there was no PGAT event you would not need a release.

 

There used to be a true off season and events in that time were referred to as Silly Season. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by aus10KC
grammar

[golfortennis]

16 hours ago, cardia10 said:

The increased money is 100% due to Tiger Woods and has little to nothing to do with the PGA Tour. The players I spoke to said it was all about honesty and trust and that tour leadership had no integrity. If you already have it made, why put up with people you can't trust. Get paid more to play less. Pretty simple really.

 

I have to disagree a bit with your first sentence.  All sports have had an explosion of revenue in the time frame that Woods has been on the scene.  Woods is responsible for some of it coming to golf, but it's disingenuous to suggest the players would still be playing for a $180,000 first prize without Woods' presence.

 

Either way, though, the "PGA Tour" as an entity had little to do with the increase in revenues.  The money was coming either way.

 

Now back to regularly scheduled programming.

[golfortennis]

13 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

 

You can't be serious.

 

The Tour can't afford to give players $100M contracts to play and then have no cut with a minimum payout of $120K.

 

The players are leaving for the money and quite frankly I can't blame them.  The LIV Tour is able to give them that much money because they are backed by the Saudi government whom has unlimited amounts of money.

 

The LIV Tour isn't a feasible model for anybody outside of those where money is no object.

 

And the Tour has to listen to the player's council because, in the end, the players have all of the power. 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

RH

 

 

 

If the "players are the tour" argument really held water, though, wouldn't the fact so many players(and try as many might to dismiss the players, it's a significant amount) are taking up the offer lead to a much different response from the tour?  While a couple have spoken out, I don't think it's players saying "GTFO" on a large enough scale to be driving that attitude.  It sure reeks of suits protecting their gravy trains.  

 

And an objective observer has to find that the creation of the no-cut guaranteed money events in the fall for the top 50 FEC puts a big hole in the tour's arguments they have made since the beginning.

 

Mickelson went about things a horrible way PR-wise and politically, but his basic argument as someone else posted, was there is a boatload of money coming into the tour, and the filter, middleman, intermediary, whatever you want to call it, is siphoning off a lot more of that money before it gets to the players than should be happening.  Can't recall if it's this thread or another, but someone mentioned that the form 990 showed 338 people working for the tour make over $100k.  338!  In an organization that never stops talking about its charitable impact on society.  I can't imagine the tour is any different from any other league, which is to say, even at minimum wage most jobs in a sports league have lines a mile long of people willing to do the job.   

[Titleist99]

33 minutes ago, aus10KC said:

 

You know for a fact that Tiger played in opposite field events without a release? Or were there not a PGAT event opposite the overseas money grab he signed up for ? I'm sure the membership rules get changed overtime, however the release is only for events that are scheduled opposite a PGAT event, if there was no PGAT event you would not need a release.

 

Their use to be a true off season and events in that time were referred to as Silly Season. 

And during those silly seasons there were a lot of skin games and team events that no one watched..........now, people are trying to convince us that team games are the future of golf.....LMMFAO

[aus10KC]

4 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

If the "players are the tour" argument really held water, though, wouldn't the fact so many players(and try as many might to dismiss the players, it's a significant amount) are taking up the offer lead to a much different response from the tour?  While a couple have spoken out, I don't think it's players saying "GTFO" on a large enough scale to be driving that attitude.  It sure reeks of suits protecting their gravy trains.  

 

And an objective observer has to find that the creation of the no-cut guaranteed money events in the fall for the top 50 FEC puts a big hole in the tour's arguments they have made since the beginning.

 

Mickelson went about things a horrible way PR-wise and politically, but his basic argument as someone else posted, was there is a boatload of money coming into the tour, and the filter, middleman, intermediary, whatever you want to call it, is siphoning off a lot more of that money before it gets to the players than should be happening.  Can't recall if it's this thread or another, but someone mentioned that the form 990 showed 338 people working for the tour make over $100k.  338!  In an organization that never stops talking about its charitable impact on society.  I can't imagine the tour is any different from any other league, which is to say, even at minimum wage most jobs in a sports league have lines a mile long of people willing to do the job.   

 

The percentage of executive pay is 3.1% of expenses and total other salaries is 8.6% for a total of $138 million dollars. I'm sorry you feel like Susan in accounting makes too much, but since the PGAT is a charity to their workers I've linked a bunch of PGAT jobs below. 

 

 

https://pgatour.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/PGATOURExternal

 

 

[bfactor]

Good grief. Scanning those roles and given all the other opportunities out there, who would do any of those jobs for <$100k?

[RichieHunt]

1 hour ago, bfactor said:

Good grief. Scanning those roles and given all the other opportunities out there, who would do any of those jobs for <$100k?

 

And most of those jobs pay nowhere close to $100K.  I should know as back in 2016 they wanted to bring me in for a job interview, but I turned it down once I saw how low the pay was.

 

 

 

RH

[Soloman1]

$420+ million of top line is money from sponsors for tournament purses that simply goes in then out of the account to PGA Tour players.

 

There is additional money from the Champions and KF tour that is handled the same way.

 

It's a pass through, so the salaries percentages should be adjusted after subtracting all that.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Soloman1

[oikos1]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:11 AM, Pastit said:

He manages his schedule well, looks fit and can win even if he loses length with increasing age. 

Nah, length is his strength.

 

When that goes, he's done as a legitimate threat on the PGA Tour.

 

And for those who want to dispute that:

 

PGA Tour Driving Distance:

2022: 2nd

2021: 2nd

2020: 4th

2019: 2nd

 

...and on it goes.  He's pretty much Top 10 every year, and half of those are Top 5's also with some 1st's...

[2bGood]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:35 AM, Soloman1 said:

$420+ million of top line is money from sponsors for tournament purses that simply goes in then out of the account to PGA Tour players.

 

There is additional money from the Champions and KF tour that is handled the same way.

 

It's a pass through, so the salaries percentages should be adjusted after subtracting all that.

 

 

Because the staff don't do any work getting the sponsorships, putting the deals together, stewarding the sponsors allocating the funding etc. ? Some of those execs, entire job is to get, expand and keep sponsors.

 

I am curious who you think is working on sponsorship deals and managing the details of this 'flow through'?

 

Now do the execs make too much? 🤷‍♂️ It really depends on your view of the world.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by 2bGood

[cardia10]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:23 PM, 2bGood said:

Because the staff don't do any work getting the sponsorships, putting the deals together, stewarding the sponsors allocating the funding etc. ? Some of those execs, entire job is to get, expand and keep sponsors.

 

I am curious who you think is working on sponsorship deals and managing the details of this 'flow through'?

 

Now do the execs make too much? 🤷‍♂️ It really depends on your view of the world.

 

 

I think the exec salaries are more in line with a for profit corporation versus a not for profit. Typically you don't see those types of executive salaries in the non profit world. There are always exceptions, but there is a reason the Tour is now being investigated.

[johnseg]

4 hours ago, cardia10 said:

I think the exec salaries are more in line with a for profit corporation versus a not for profit. Typically you don't see those types of executive salaries in the non profit world. There are always exceptions, but there is a reason the Tour is now being investigated.

You can't think about Charitable Organizations and Non-Profit Organizations in the same manner. They serve two different purposes.

 

Too often we use those two terms as interchangable.

Edited August 1, 2022 by johnseg

[cardia10]

3 minutes ago, johnseg said:

You can't think about Charitable Organizations and Non-Profit Organizations in the same manner. They serve two different purposes.

 

Too often we use those two terms as interchangable.

I agree. Most people use a C6 and C3 interchangeably but they are very different. The big question in the investigation is that does the tour still meet the standard of the definition of a C6 and has it been truthful in their annual filings about activities related to their mission. Throwing a few thousand toward charities in cities may make you feel better, but are you doing what you said you would do. I think they will win that battle as anyone can sugar coat activities, but when the court battle ensues over players, it will get ugly for the tour fast. 

[joshrad_golf]

On 7/25/2022 at 9:14 AM, aus10KC said:

 

Don't they have media partners and corporate sponsors they have to protect, which brings in money thus benefiting the players? That is why they have these rules in place, it isn't arbitrary. And if there are no penalties for breaking these rules, why even have them in place to begin with? 

 

 

The events they put on raises millions for charities, why does it matter which checking account it came from? 

That's a really good point. If LIV does start taking away viewership from the PGA TOUR, then TV companies and corporation's won't be willing to do as much business with the PGA TOUR because it is not as popular, thus lowering purses, making it less beneficial for players.

[2bGood]

11 hours ago, cardia10 said:

I agree. Most people use a C6 and C3 interchangeably but they are very different. The big question in the investigation is that does the tour still meet the standard of the definition of a C6 and has it been truthful in their annual filings about activities related to their mission. Throwing a few thousand toward charities in cities may make you feel better, but are you doing what you said you would do. I think they will win that battle as anyone can sugar coat activities, but when the court battle ensues over players, it will get ugly for the tour fast. 

Any and all charity donations are irrelevant to the investigation. Also my understanding is their non-profit status is not being investigated, it is an investigation around anti-trust law by the DOJ. These laws apply to non-profit and for-profit in exactly the same way.

 

If it was about the non-profit status it would be the IRS. The IRS could be investigating them too, but I have not seen anything made public about that.

Edited August 2, 2022 by 2bGood

[oikos1]

3 hours ago, joshrad_golf said:

That's a really good point. If LIV does start taking away viewership from the PGA TOUR, then TV companies and corporation's won't be willing to do as much business with the PGA TOUR because it is not as popular, thus lowering purses, making it less beneficial for players.

Do you think LIV has already impacted TV numbers? (rhetorical question)

 

The PGA Tour, and golf in general, have their own problems regardless of the LIV Tour:  (by the way, they all raised their purses in 2022)

 

"Season to date, CBS’ coverage of PGA Tour weekends (majors excluded), is down 6% (2.27 million vs. 2.42 million viewers)."

 

https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Issues/2022/07/07/Media/Audience.aspx

 

"Final round coverage of the PGA Championship averaged a 3.1 rating and 5.27 million viewers on CBS Sunday, down 20% in ratings and 21% in viewership from Mickelson’s win last year (3.9, 6.66M) and the lowest rated final round since 2008 (2.8)."

 

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2022/05/pga-championship-ratings-decline-cbs-espn/

 

"US Open final round coverage on NBC sees 5% viewership drop against 2021"

 

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/us-open-2022-nbc-sports-tv-ratings-viewership-audience-peacock/

[chippa13]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:50 PM, Chunkitgood said:

Where exactly did Woods play when he became world famous and a billionaire (or whatever)?
 

Was the stage he performed on just possibly, maybe, the PGATour?

This is a horrible, dare I say almost trolling, statement.

[chippa13]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:06 AM, aus10KC said:

 

The percentage of executive pay is 3.1% of expenses and total other salaries is 8.6% for a total of $138 million dollars. I'm sorry you feel like Susan in accounting makes too much, but since the PGAT is a charity to their workers I've linked a bunch of PGAT jobs below. 

 

 

https://pgatour.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/PGATOURExternal

 

 

I'd like to see the actual numbers on this one. And keep in mind there are all kinds of compensation available to executives outside of "salary".