Brand new irons delivered at D5 swing weight

[Mario Good Times]

So I had some pro shop funny money and ordered a set of Taylormade 7mc irons project x 6.5 standard grips and length and lie.  I put them on the swing scale and they are all D5 does that seem pretty heavy for stock irons ?

[mizuno player]

My opinion is that seems high. What does. TM site say for SW is on stock builds? 

 

 

[evoviiiyou]

Easy way to fix scale numbers is counter balance grips.  I remember some weights that Sergio was playing back in the day to do this.  DO they feel heavy...probably worth trying them a few rounds or buckets first before doing anything...might be magic

[Golfrnut]

3 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

So I had some pro shop funny money and ordered a set of Taylormade 7mc irons project x 6.5 standard grips and length and lie.  I put them on the swing scale and they are all D5 does that seem pretty heavy for stock irons ?

I would look for the simple answer first. Get them on a good club ruler. They could be a smidge long due to grip cap thickness, etc. They likely set them by ungripped length and weight, so even small things like that will effect the final result. Could still play at a normal SW but measure high on a scale. There’s a few variables there, judging off a SW scale has its limits. 

[Valtiel]

Were they ordered with stock specs? Grips?

[Stuart_G]

 

6 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

I put them on the swing scale and they are all D5 does that seem pretty heavy for stock irons ?

 

Yes.   But have you hit them yet?   It's how they feel to you that matters.  Some do fit into heavier swing weights.  

 

If you're not sure, test a mid iron choked up 1/2" and compare that to hitting at the full length.  If you like it better choked up, they could very well be too heavy for you.   If not, you're probably fine as is.

 

 

5 hours ago, evoviiiyou said:

Easy way to fix scale numbers is counter balance grips.

 

No.  There are always exceptions but that usually doesn't fix anything about how the clubs feel.   In some cases it can even make it worse.

 

 

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

Were they ordered with stock specs? Grips?

 

6 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

standard grips and length and lie.  

Edited June 23, 2022 by Stuart_G

[phizzy30]

D5 is heavy for stock irons for any brand/OEM.  They usually come in around D1-D3.  As the other posters have said, there are ways to counterbalance/drop swing weight. 

[MMB1500]

It's easy enough to take a little weight out of the heads...

 

 

 

 

 

[Golfrnut]

2 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

D5 is heavy for stock irons for any brand/OEM.  They usually come in around D1-D3.  As the other posters have said, there are ways to counterbalance/drop swing weight. 

Problem with that is that it does not address any MOI issues pf there are any. Countering SW with more grip side weight jist increases MOI further, so if there are issues with the MOI being too high due to SW, it just makes it worse. 

[Mario Good Times]

I’ve contacted TM let’s see what they say …. They feel heavy in hand 

[AKA_Double J]

 

 

 

I would assume that these swing weights are with the "stock" KBS Tour.  I don't know enough about the difference in KBS Tour and PX to know if there is a point or two of SW difference in the shaft or not.  Doesn't seem like they are too far off though.

[Adam C]

4 minutes ago, AKA_Double J said:

 

 

 

I would assume that these swing weights are with the "stock" KBS Tour.  I don't know enough about the difference in KBS Tour and PX to know if there is a point or two of SW difference in the shaft or not.  Doesn't seem like they are too far off though.

KBS Tour has a much higher balance point than the PX 6.5

 

[T_Golf_23]

My callaway X-Forged CB21 came like this. Fortunately they have adjustable headweights. 
 

Sometimes project X shafts tend to come in a little heavier on swing scales. Shafts like KBS tour V have higher balance points, tend to be SW light. 
 

i would measure them first on a really good ruler. Even a 1/4” adds 1.5 SW points. 
 

also, grips can vary by up for 3-4 grams from stock specs. Every 5 grams you decrease grip weight from stock, you add a SW point. Each of these little things can easily take you from D3 to D5. 
 

also, make sure your swing scale is level. That can affect things too. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by T_Golf_23

[Cliffy2020]

Paralysis by analysis.  I’m a numbers nerd, but sometimes I wish I never put my clubs on a scale.  
 

Been smashing my old driver and it feels great, but while trying to put together a new driver I had my old one scaled and it came out to D9.  In my head, I’m thinking that’s way heavier than I wanted.  I was guessing it was D5 or D6 at the most.

 

Point being SW is just a reference point, it’s a ratio.  It’s not actual weight.  I’d guess very few of us could discern D2,D3, D4,D5 in a blind test.  It would be fun to try, but I’m more interest in playing golf than playing swing weight.  
 

Go hit those beauties!

[Stuart_G]

14 minutes ago, Adam C said:

KBS Tour has a much higher balance point than the PX 6.5

 

 

Never built with PX but I've found KBS's are only 1 sw pt lighter than DG's.   Are PX  balance points really that low as to bring up the SW as much as the OP is seeing?

 

 

[hammersia]

3 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

D5 is heavy for stock irons for any brand/OEM.  They usually come in around D1-D3.  As the other posters have said, there are ways to counterbalance/drop swing weight. 

Which won't help him at all, counterbalancing is just tricking the scale, won't make them feel any lighter. Reducing swingweight is only straightforward if the cause is tip weights etc.

[Mario Good Times]

I’ve confirm they are standard length on the dot.   I have other iron sets to reference weights with.  They have golf pride mcc with extra wrap.  I’m beyond confused why so heavy as if they put shaft weights in them.  I want to take them apart so bad but also just want them to fix them as we pay a pretty penny these days for clubs.  

[ikegoody]

16 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Never built with PX but I've found KBS's are only 1 sw pt lighter than DG's.   Are PX  balance points really that low as to bring up the SW as much as the OP is seeing?

 

 

Stock SW on the clubs is D3, and was probably measured using KBS Tour stiff, which are 120g shafts. So, if PX naturally measures 1 SW higher than DG (which I assume measure about the same or a little higher than KBS) due to balance point, and the PX 6.5 are 125g, I could see bumping up to D5 being within range.

Edited June 23, 2022 by ikegoody

[Stuart_G]

30 minutes ago, ikegoody said:

Stock SW on the clubs is D3,

 

That's heavy for a stock SW, even for MC's.   What's TM thinking?

 

30 minutes ago, ikegoody said:

and was probably measured using KBS Tour stiff,

 

I would hope not but I admit it wouldn't surprise me.

 

30 minutes ago, ikegoody said:

which are 120g shafts. So, if PX naturally measures 1 SW higher than DG (which I assume measure about the same or a little higher than KBS) due to balance point, and the PX 6.5 are 125g,

 

DG's are even heavier and they only bump it up 1 pt.  So forget the rule about how shaft weight effects swing weight.   Only way to really get an answer is to make the change and see what the scale says.

 

And no, I'm not suggesting it's outside the realm of possibility.  Just asking if anyone has made that actual shaft switch and what difference they saw.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Stuart_G

[FirePro]

22 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

And no, I'm not suggesting it's outside the realm of possibility.  Just asking if anyone has made that actual shaft switch and what difference they saw.

 

I made the switch from DG to KBS quite a few years ago and had to add more head weight to get the desired swing weight with the KBS Tours.  Im back to DG's and have them set at D4 now but built them up myself.

 

To the OP, have you hit them yet?  Id say try them out and check strike location and if you are consistent.  Also if they feel ok because that does matter.  If you are all over the place with the current set up I would like to welcome you to the rabbit hole that is club building.  If you have any questions there are a few OG WRX'ers here that can help you along your journey. 

[BirdieBob]

11 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

So I had some pro shop funny money and ordered a set of Taylormade 7mc irons project x 6.5 standard grips and length and lie.  I put them on the swing scale and they are all D5 does that seem pretty heavy for stock irons ?

 

Take them back to the "Pro shop" and have them returned for the correct SW.  They put the wrong bullet weights in the hosel.

[pccasstpro]

12 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

So I had some pro shop funny money and ordered a set of Taylormade 7mc irons project x 6.5 standard grips and length and lie.  I put them on the swing scale and they are all D5 does that seem pretty heavy for stock irons ?

 It seems like everyone is forgetting the one glaring point in my mind. And maybe it is just me who thinks of these things when reading a post about swingweights and other club measurements. So here is my main question, are you using the same swingweight scale that TM is using to measure spec? In my experiences , especially with factory build and or factory custom clubs ; nobody seems to ask how are they measured , and what type of equipment was used? If they are using a old Shadowgraph Scale they measure different than a sliding weight scale; and even at that point different lorythmic scale will measure different . Example would be the differences between a Mitchell, Kenneth Smith, and Maltby and that is in the high end scales. We are not even beginning to talk about the mid to low range hobbyist scales. 

 

I would say that a 2 swingweight point differentiate is not to bad, my main concern would be overall weight and balance point within the shaft. If you send them back , you may get the same clubs back or they will say they are within the spec tolerances. I have always found that TM has been very loose in the interpretation of the word "tolerances" when dealing with custom builds.       

Edited June 23, 2022 by pccasstpro

[Stuart_G]

29 minutes ago, pccasstpro said:

 It seems like everyone is forgetting the one glaring point in my mind. And maybe it is just me who thinks of these things when reading a post about swingweights ...... And here is my main question, are you the same swingweight scale that TM is using to measure spec?

 

There should be no need to use the same scale.  As long as it's one based on the 14" fulcrum point, the physics is the same.   The torque to balance the club at the fulcrum point is measured and converted to the swing weight value.   And that's pretty basic math.  While there are some variations in that math (that come from converting the original weight unit of ounces to grams), it's actually very minor, usually less than 1 sw pt total error.

 

And yes, while there are a few 12" fulcrum (kennith smith "Official" scale) scales around, they are really not that commonly used outside of some collectors - and if one was used, the result is not in the same form as the Adams'/Smith's lorythmic scale (not in the form of "D4"  - it would just be a number).  So it's extremely unlikely that a 12" fulcrum scale was used to get the value in the OP.

 

The only question might be the accuracy and calibration of the device being used - not the intended methodology.  And yes, that certainly could be an issue.  It's not actually uncommon at all among hobby/shop/builder scales.   Very few take the time to check the calibration all that often, if at all.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Stuart_G

[evoviiiyou]

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Yes.   But have you hit them yet?   It's how they feel to you that matters.  Some do fit into heavier swing weights.  

 

If you're not sure, test a mid iron choked up 1/2" and compare that to hitting at the full length.  If you like it better choked up, they could very well be too heavy for you.   If not, you're probably fine as is.

 

 

 

No.  There are always exceptions but that usually doesn't fix anything about how the clubs feel.   In some cases it can even make it worse.

 

 

 

Agree on the hit them first as magic sometimes strikes.

 

I disagree with you anecdotally in my case on counter balancing grips.  I have had several custom builds that landed heavier than optimal and added Golf Pride Tour Wrap white grip (standard and midsize depending on what was needed to satisfy my scale) vs the Golf Pride Tour Wrap Black grip and the club felt completely on point for me.  Also, a few tour pros have done this that I am aware of for preferred feel (the little plug in weights to the end of the grip). Of course, this does cause the over weight to be slightly heavier overall. I do agree for some, it may make feel comfort worse...this is subjective not objective like fixing the scale result, which my OG post does allow.

[iknowbagu]

2 hours ago, Cliffy2020 said:

Paralysis by analysis.  I’m a numbers nerd, but sometimes I wish I never put my clubs on a scale.  
 

Been smashing my old driver and it feels great, but while trying to put together a new driver I had my old one scaled and it came out to D9.  In my head, I’m thinking that’s way heavier than I wanted.  I was guessing it was D5 or D6 at the most.

 

Point being SW is just a reference point, it’s a ratio.  It’s not actual weight.  I’d guess very few of us could discern D2,D3, D4,D5 in a blind test.  It would be fun to try, but I’m more interest in playing golf than playing swing weight.  
 

Go hit those beauties!

 

This ...

 

I think way too many of us (myself included) get way too hung up with numbers on a scale/screen/app/etc. and forget that the game is played out in the wild.  Is D5 heavy?  Yeah.  Is it 'too' heavy?  Maybe, but you won't know unless you go hit them and see.  If you don't like the results/feel then go from there.  But sometimes we go looking for problems that aren't really there.

Edited June 23, 2022 by iknowbagu
spelling is hard

[pccasstpro]

35 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

There should be no need to use the same scale.  As long as it's one based on the 14" fulcrum point, the physics is the same.   The torque to balance the club at the fulcrum point is measured and converted to the swing weight value.   And that's pretty basic math.  While there are some variations in that math (that come from converting the original weight unit of ounces to grams), it's actually very minor, usually less than 1 sw pt total error.

 

And yes, while there are a few 12" fulcrum (kennith smith "Official" scale) scales around, they are really not that commonly used outside of some collectors - and if one was used, the result is not in the same form as the Adams'/Smith's lorythmic scale (not in the form of "D4"  - it would just be a number).  So it's extremely unlikely that a 12" fulcrum scale was used to get the value in the OP.

 

The only question might be the accuracy and calibration of the device being used - not the intended methodology.  And yes, that certainly could be an issue.  It's not actually uncommon at all among hobby/shop/builder scales.   Very few take the time to check the calibration all that often, if at all.

 

 

On paper yes , but real life no so much! I have a collection of SW scales and each one gives me a different result. It just happens that I use a Mitchell Tourguage from 2012 for my home bench, but I have a Kenneth Smith from 1975 that was my grandfathers which measures 2 SW points lighter. I also have a Maltby Golfworks scale which measures 1 lighter than the Mitchell. The funny part is before I got rid of an old Shadowgraph that was given to me, I compared it to the Mitchell. The Mitchell was spot on to the good ole' Shadowgraph from 1966.   

[Stuart_G]

27 minutes ago, evoviiiyou said:

I disagree with you anecdotally in my case on counter balancing grips. 

 

Swing weight (the original concept for which the scale was intended) is all about MOI matching.   Adding butt weight does nothing to reduce the MOI of the club and the scale was never really intended to be used in that context.   So if the problem really is the MOI is too high, it will more often than not still be too high after adding the butt weight.

 

Now, that's not the same thing as saying adding weight to the butt can't help an individual.

 

When it "works" it's not because you're seeing an improvement due to the "change" in swing weight value.   Counterbalancing and it's potential benefits is a completely separate (although not completely independent) subject matter - not to mention a much more complex and unpredictable phenomenon.

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Stuart_G]

20 minutes ago, pccasstpro said:

On paper yes , but real life no so much! I have a collection of SW scales and each one gives me a different result. It just happens that I use a Mitchell Tourguage from 2012 for my home bench, but I have a Kenneth Smith from 1975 that was my grandfathers which measures 2 SW points lighter. I also have a Maltby Golfworks scale which measures 1 lighter than the Mitchell. The funny part is before I got rid of an old Shadowgraph that was given to me, I compared it to the Mitchell. The Mitchell was spot on to the good ole' Shadowgraph from 1966.   

 

I don't doubt it but I'm not disagreeing with the results, rather with reasoning behind the differences your seeing.   How many of those have you checked the calibration?

 

D0 ~= a counter-moment of 213.5 inch-ounces (with each sw pt being 1.75 inch-ounces).   Or roughly 6050 inch-grams.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Stuart_G

[evoviiiyou]

4 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Swing weight (the original concept for which the scale was intended) is all about MOI matching.   Adding butt weight does nothing to reduce the MOI of the club and the scale was never really intended to be used in that context.   So if the problem really is the MOI is too high, it will more often than not still be too high after adding the butt weight.

 

Now, that's not the same thing as saying adding weight to the butt can't help an individual.

 

When it "works" it's not because you're seeing an improvement due to the change in swing weight value.   Counterbalancing and it's potential benefits is a completely different subject matter - not to mention a much more complex and unpredictable.

 

 

 

I agree 100%...my current set is MOI matched built set to the FQ of my 7iron.  Thanks for your contributions @Stuart_G, I enjoy learning from your posts.

[TwistedSister]

I wish I could tell the difference in ONE SW point.  Even two is iffy!