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Easy way to fix scale numbers is counter balance grips.  I remember some weights that Sergio was playing back in the day to do this.  DO they feel heavy...probably worth trying them a few rounds or buckets first before doing anything...might be magic

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3 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

So I had some pro shop funny money and ordered a set of Taylormade 7mc irons project x 6.5 standard grips and length and lie.  I put them on the swing scale and they are all D5 does that seem pretty heavy for stock irons ?


I would look for the simple answer first. Get them on a good club ruler. They could be a smidge long due to grip cap thickness, etc. They likely set them by ungripped length and weight, so even small things like that will effect the final result. Could still play at a normal SW but measure high on a scale. There’s a few variables there, judging off a SW scale has its limits. 

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Were they ordered with stock specs? Grips?

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6 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

I put them on the swing scale and they are all D5 does that seem pretty heavy for stock irons ?

 

Yes.   But have you hit them yet?   It's how they feel to you that matters.  Some do fit into heavier swing weights.  

 

If you're not sure, test a mid iron choked up 1/2" and compare that to hitting at the full length.  If you like it better choked up, they could very well be too heavy for you.   If not, you're probably fine as is.

 

 

5 hours ago, evoviiiyou said:

Easy way to fix scale numbers is counter balance grips.

 

No.  There are always exceptions but that usually doesn't fix anything about how the clubs feel.   In some cases it can even make it worse.

 

 

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

Were they ordered with stock specs? Grips?

 

6 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

standard grips and length and lie.  

Edited by Stuart_G
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D5 is heavy for stock irons for any brand/OEM.  They usually come in around D1-D3.  As the other posters have said, there are ways to counterbalance/drop swing weight. 

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2 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

D5 is heavy for stock irons for any brand/OEM.  They usually come in around D1-D3.  As the other posters have said, there are ways to counterbalance/drop swing weight. 


Problem with that is that it does not address any MOI issues pf there are any. Countering SW with more grip side weight jist increases MOI further, so if there are issues with the MOI being too high due to SW, it just makes it worse. 

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4 minutes ago, AKA_Double J said:

 

 

 

I would assume that these swing weights are with the "stock" KBS Tour.  I don't know enough about the difference in KBS Tour and PX to know if there is a point or two of SW difference in the shaft or not.  Doesn't seem like they are too far off though.image.png.cd329ed592ed2b56a333ff60f73e4698.png

KBS Tour has a much higher balance point than the PX 6.5

 

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My callaway X-Forged CB21 came like this. Fortunately they have adjustable headweights. 
 

Sometimes project X shafts tend to come in a little heavier on swing scales. Shafts like KBS tour V have higher balance points, tend to be SW light. 
 

i would measure them first on a really good ruler. Even a 1/4” adds 1.5 SW points. 
 

also, grips can vary by up for 3-4 grams from stock specs. Every 5 grams you decrease grip weight from stock, you add a SW point. Each of these little things can easily take you from D3 to D5. 
 

also, make sure your swing scale is level. That can affect things too. 

Edited by T_Golf_23
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Paralysis by analysis.  I’m a numbers nerd, but sometimes I wish I never put my clubs on a scale.  
 

Been smashing my old driver and it feels great, but while trying to put together a new driver I had my old one scaled and it came out to D9.  In my head, I’m thinking that’s way heavier than I wanted.  I was guessing it was D5 or D6 at the most.

 

Point being SW is just a reference point, it’s a ratio.  It’s not actual weight.  I’d guess very few of us could discern D2,D3, D4,D5 in a blind test.  It would be fun to try, but I’m more interest in playing golf than playing swing weight.  
 

Go hit those beauties!

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3 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

D5 is heavy for stock irons for any brand/OEM.  They usually come in around D1-D3.  As the other posters have said, there are ways to counterbalance/drop swing weight. 

Which won't help him at all, counterbalancing is just tricking the scale, won't make them feel any lighter. Reducing swingweight is only straightforward if the cause is tip weights etc.

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I’ve confirm they are standard length on the dot.   I have other iron sets to reference weights with.  They have golf pride mcc with extra wrap.  I’m beyond confused why so heavy as if they put shaft weights in them.  I want to take them apart so bad but also just want them to fix them as we pay a pretty penny these days for clubs.  

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16 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Never built with PX but I've found KBS's are only 1 sw pt lighter than DG's.   Are PX  balance points really that low as to bring up the SW as much as the OP is seeing?

 

 

Stock SW on the clubs is D3, and was probably measured using KBS Tour stiff, which are 120g shafts. So, if PX naturally measures 1 SW higher than DG (which I assume measure about the same or a little higher than KBS) due to balance point, and the PX 6.5 are 125g, I could see bumping up to D5 being within range.

Edited by ikegoody
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30 minutes ago, ikegoody said:

Stock SW on the clubs is D3,

 

That's heavy for a stock SW, even for MC's.   What's TM thinking?

 

30 minutes ago, ikegoody said:

and was probably measured using KBS Tour stiff,

 

I would hope not but I admit it wouldn't surprise me.

 

30 minutes ago, ikegoody said:

which are 120g shafts. So, if PX naturally measures 1 SW higher than DG (which I assume measure about the same or a little higher than KBS) due to balance point, and the PX 6.5 are 125g,

 

DG's are even heavier and they only bump it up 1 pt.  So forget the rule about how shaft weight effects swing weight.   Only way to really get an answer is to make the change and see what the scale says.

 

And no, I'm not suggesting it's outside the realm of possibility.  Just asking if anyone has made that actual shaft switch and what difference they saw.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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22 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

And no, I'm not suggesting it's outside the realm of possibility.  Just asking if anyone has made that actual shaft switch and what difference they saw.

 

I made the switch from DG to KBS quite a few years ago and had to add more head weight to get the desired swing weight with the KBS Tours.  Im back to DG's and have them set at D4 now but built them up myself.

 

To the OP, have you hit them yet?  Id say try them out and check strike location and if you are consistent.  Also if they feel ok because that does matter.  If you are all over the place with the current set up I would like to welcome you to the rabbit hole that is club building.  If you have any questions there are a few OG WRX'ers here that can help you along your journey. 

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11 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

So I had some pro shop funny money and ordered a set of Taylormade 7mc irons project x 6.5 standard grips and length and lie.  I put them on the swing scale and they are all D5 does that seem pretty heavy for stock irons ?

 

Take them back to the "Pro shop" and have them returned for the correct SW.  They put the wrong bullet weights in the hosel.

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12 hours ago, Mario Good Times said:

So I had some pro shop funny money and ordered a set of Taylormade 7mc irons project x 6.5 standard grips and length and lie.  I put them on the swing scale and they are all D5 does that seem pretty heavy for stock irons ?

 It seems like everyone is forgetting the one glaring point in my mind. And maybe it is just me who thinks of these things when reading a post about swingweights and other club measurements. So here is my main question, are you using the same swingweight scale that TM is using to measure spec? In my experiences , especially with factory build and or factory custom clubs ; nobody seems to ask how are they measured , and what type of equipment was used? If they are using a old Shadowgraph Scale they measure different than a sliding weight scale; and even at that point different lorythmic scale will measure different . Example would be the differences between a Mitchell, Kenneth Smith, and Maltby and that is in the high end scales. We are not even beginning to talk about the mid to low range hobbyist scales. 

 

I would say that a 2 swingweight point differentiate is not to bad, my main concern would be overall weight and balance point within the shaft. If you send them back , you may get the same clubs back or they will say they are within the spec tolerances. I have always found that TM has been very loose in the interpretation of the word "tolerances" when dealing with custom builds.       

Edited by pccasstpro
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29 minutes ago, pccasstpro said:

 It seems like everyone is forgetting the one glaring point in my mind. And maybe it is just me who thinks of these things when reading a post about swingweights ...... And here is my main question, are you the same swingweight scale that TM is using to measure spec?

 

There should be no need to use the same scale.  As long as it's one based on the 14" fulcrum point, the physics is the same.   The torque to balance the club at the fulcrum point is measured and converted to the swing weight value.   And that's pretty basic math.  While there are some variations in that math (that come from converting the original weight unit of ounces to grams), it's actually very minor, usually less than 1 sw pt total error.

 

And yes, while there are a few 12" fulcrum (kennith smith "Official" scale) scales around, they are really not that commonly used outside of some collectors - and if one was used, the result is not in the same form as the Adams'/Smith's lorythmic scale (not in the form of "D4"  - it would just be a number).  So it's extremely unlikely that a 12" fulcrum scale was used to get the value in the OP.

 

The only question might be the accuracy and calibration of the device being used - not the intended methodology.  And yes, that certainly could be an issue.  It's not actually uncommon at all among hobby/shop/builder scales.   Very few take the time to check the calibration all that often, if at all.

 

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Yes.   But have you hit them yet?   It's how they feel to you that matters.  Some do fit into heavier swing weights.  

 

If you're not sure, test a mid iron choked up 1/2" and compare that to hitting at the full length.  If you like it better choked up, they could very well be too heavy for you.   If not, you're probably fine as is.

 

 

 

No.  There are always exceptions but that usually doesn't fix anything about how the clubs feel.   In some cases it can even make it worse.

 

 

 

Agree on the hit them first as magic sometimes strikes.

 

I disagree with you anecdotally in my case on counter balancing grips.  I have had several custom builds that landed heavier than optimal and added Golf Pride Tour Wrap white grip (standard and midsize depending on what was needed to satisfy my scale) vs the Golf Pride Tour Wrap Black grip and the club felt completely on point for me.  Also, a few tour pros have done this that I am aware of for preferred feel (the little plug in weights to the end of the grip). Of course, this does cause the over weight to be slightly heavier overall. I do agree for some, it may make feel comfort worse...this is subjective not objective like fixing the scale result, which my OG post does allow.

 

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2 hours ago, Cliffy2020 said:

Paralysis by analysis.  I’m a numbers nerd, but sometimes I wish I never put my clubs on a scale.  
 

Been smashing my old driver and it feels great, but while trying to put together a new driver I had my old one scaled and it came out to D9.  In my head, I’m thinking that’s way heavier than I wanted.  I was guessing it was D5 or D6 at the most.

 

Point being SW is just a reference point, it’s a ratio.  It’s not actual weight.  I’d guess very few of us could discern D2,D3, D4,D5 in a blind test.  It would be fun to try, but I’m more interest in playing golf than playing swing weight.  
 

Go hit those beauties!

 

This ...

 

I think way too many of us (myself included) get way too hung up with numbers on a scale/screen/app/etc. and forget that the game is played out in the wild.  Is D5 heavy?  Yeah.  Is it 'too' heavy?  Maybe, but you won't know unless you go hit them and see.  If you don't like the results/feel then go from there.  But sometimes we go looking for problems that aren't really there.

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35 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

There should be no need to use the same scale.  As long as it's one based on the 14" fulcrum point, the physics is the same.   The torque to balance the club at the fulcrum point is measured and converted to the swing weight value.   And that's pretty basic math.  While there are some variations in that math (that come from converting the original weight unit of ounces to grams), it's actually very minor, usually less than 1 sw pt total error.

 

And yes, while there are a few 12" fulcrum (kennith smith "Official" scale) scales around, they are really not that commonly used outside of some collectors - and if one was used, the result is not in the same form as the Adams'/Smith's lorythmic scale (not in the form of "D4"  - it would just be a number).  So it's extremely unlikely that a 12" fulcrum scale was used to get the value in the OP.

 

The only question might be the accuracy and calibration of the device being used - not the intended methodology.  And yes, that certainly could be an issue.  It's not actually uncommon at all among hobby/shop/builder scales.   Very few take the time to check the calibration all that often, if at all.

 

 

On paper yes , but real life no so much! I have a collection of SW scales and each one gives me a different result. It just happens that I use a Mitchell Tourguage from 2012 for my home bench, but I have a Kenneth Smith from 1975 that was my grandfathers which measures 2 SW points lighter. I also have a Maltby Golfworks scale which measures 1 lighter than the Mitchell. The funny part is before I got rid of an old Shadowgraph that was given to me, I compared it to the Mitchell. The Mitchell was spot on to the good ole' Shadowgraph from 1966.   

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27 minutes ago, evoviiiyou said:

I disagree with you anecdotally in my case on counter balancing grips. 

 

Swing weight (the original concept for which the scale was intended) is all about MOI matching.   Adding butt weight does nothing to reduce the MOI of the club and the scale was never really intended to be used in that context.   So if the problem really is the MOI is too high, it will more often than not still be too high after adding the butt weight.

 

Now, that's not the same thing as saying adding weight to the butt can't help an individual.

 

When it "works" it's not because you're seeing an improvement due to the "change" in swing weight value.   Counterbalancing and it's potential benefits is a completely separate (although not completely independent) subject matter - not to mention a much more complex and unpredictable phenomenon.

 

 

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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20 minutes ago, pccasstpro said:

On paper yes , but real life no so much! I have a collection of SW scales and each one gives me a different result. It just happens that I use a Mitchell Tourguage from 2012 for my home bench, but I have a Kenneth Smith from 1975 that was my grandfathers which measures 2 SW points lighter. I also have a Maltby Golfworks scale which measures 1 lighter than the Mitchell. The funny part is before I got rid of an old Shadowgraph that was given to me, I compared it to the Mitchell. The Mitchell was spot on to the good ole' Shadowgraph from 1966.   

 

I don't doubt it but I'm not disagreeing with the results, rather with reasoning behind the differences your seeing.   How many of those have you checked the calibration?

 

D0 ~= a counter-moment of 213.5 inch-ounces (with each sw pt being 1.75 inch-ounces).   Or roughly 6050 inch-grams.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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4 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Swing weight (the original concept for which the scale was intended) is all about MOI matching.   Adding butt weight does nothing to reduce the MOI of the club and the scale was never really intended to be used in that context.   So if the problem really is the MOI is too high, it will more often than not still be too high after adding the butt weight.

 

Now, that's not the same thing as saying adding weight to the butt can't help an individual.

 

When it "works" it's not because you're seeing an improvement due to the change in swing weight value.   Counterbalancing and it's potential benefits is a completely different subject matter - not to mention a much more complex and unpredictable.

 

 

 

I agree 100%...my current set is MOI matched built set to the FQ of my 7iron.  Thanks for your contributions @Stuart_G, I enjoy learning from your posts.

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      Hank Lebioda - WITB - 2022 John Deere Classic
      KJ Choi - WITB - 2022 John Deere Classic
      Sahith Theegale - WITB - 2022 John Deere Classic
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Nick Watney's Cameron putter - 2022 John Deere Classic
      Stealth version 2 drivers - 2022 John Deere Classic
      Ryuji Imada's NexGen NS210 driver - 2022 John Deere Classic
       

       
      • 0 replies
    • Titleist TSR2, TSR3 & TSR4  driver & TSR2, TSR2+ & TSR3 3 wood - 2022 Travelers
      TSR 2 driver
      TSR 3 driver
      TSR 2 & 2+ 3 wood
      TSR 3 3 wood
       
      Comparison with the TSi drivers and 3 woods
       
       
       
       
       
        • Thanks
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      • 378 replies
    • 2022 US Open Inside the Ropes WITB Photos- Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2022 US Open - Monday #1
      2022 US Open - Monday #2
      2022 US Open - Monday #3
      2022 US Open - Monday #4
      2022 US Open - Monday #5
      2022 US Open - Tuesday #1
      2022 US Open - Tuesday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Justin Rose - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Kalle Samooja - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Chris Gotterup - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Marcel Schneider - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Isaiah Salinda - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Thorbjorn Olesen - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Michael Thorbjornsen - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Yannik Paul - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Keegan Bradley - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Sean Crocker - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Ryan Gerard - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Ryan Fox - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Richard Mansell - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Stewart Hagestad - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Todd Sinnott - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Sam Stevens - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Dustin Johnson - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Junichiro Kozuma - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Adri Arnaus - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Sam Burns WITB – 2022 US Open
      Chan Kim - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Travis Vick - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Tomaso Sugiyama - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Sam Bennett - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Keith Greene - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Andrew Beckler - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Davis Shore - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Keita Nakajima - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Matt McCarty - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Sebastian Soderberg - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Adrien Dumont de Chassart - WITB - 2022 US Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB – 2022 US Open
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Scotty Cameron putter covers - 2022 US Open
      Ping PLD putters - 2022 US Open
      Odyssey putter covers - 2022 US Open
      Matthew Fitzpatrick's commemorative gold Bettinardi - 2022 US Open
      Bettinardi putter covers - 2022 US Open
      Brooks Koepka back to a Titleist golf ball - 2022 US Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 12 replies
    • Members Choice 2022: Vote for the best product in these categories!
      The bedrock of GolfWRX.com is the community of passionate and knowledgable golfers in our forums, and we put endless trust in the opinions of our GolfWRX members — the most knowledgeable community of golfers on the internet. No other group of golfers in the world tests golf clubs as frequently or as extensively, or is armed with such in-depth information about the latest technology and gear. 
       
      On that note, we just launched our 2022 GolfWRX Members Choice awards, and the polls are now open.
       
      We want to hear from you, not just with a vote but with your comments too!
       
      Please vote in the other Members Choice categories below!
       
      And don't forget to comment with the reasoning for your choice!
       
      Best driver 2022 Best fairway wood 2022 Best hybrid 2022 Best irons 2022 Best wedge 2022 Best putter 2022 Best ball of 2022 Best driver shaft of 2022 Best rangefinder of 2022 Best rangefinder 2022 Best tour ball 2022 Best "non-tour" ball 2022 Best iron shaft 2022 Best launch monitor (high-end) 2022 Best launch monitor mid 2022 Best launch monitor low 2022 Best DTC putter 2022 Best DTC irons, wedges 2022 Best DTC ball 2022 Best putters over $300 2022 Best putters sub $300 2022 Best bespoke accessories 2022 Best boutique Irons 2022 Best custom headcovers 2022 Best glove 2022 Best golf apps 2022 Best golf bag 2022 Best golf mat 2022 Best golf mat (putting) 2022 Best golf pants 2022 Best headwear 2022 Best net/screen 2022 Best polo 2022 Best pushcart 2022 Best rain gear 2022 Best golf shoes 2022 Best sunglasses 2022 Best training aids - full swing 2022 Best training aids fitness 2022 Best training aids putting/short game 2022 Best travel bag 2022 Best umbrella 2022 Best grip 2022 Best putter grips 2022  
       
      • 1 reply
    • 2022 The Memorial Inside the Ropes WITB & Equipment pics- Discussion and links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
       
      2022 the Memorial - Tuesday #1
      2022 the Memorial - Tuesday #2
      2022 the Memorial - Tuesday #3
       
       
      WITB
       
      Adam Scott WITB – 2022 the Memorial
      Abraham Ancer WITB – 2022 the Memorial
      Patrick Cantlay WITB – 2022 the Memorial
      Carlos Ortiz WITB – 2022 the Memorial
      Emiliano Grillo - WITB - 2022 the Memorial
      Bryson De Chambeau - WITB - 2022 the Memorial
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
       
      Jordan Spieth - Cameron putters - 2022 the Memorial
      Adam Scott testing custom 1-of-1 Miura irons (in-hand photos!) – 2022 Memorial Tournament
      Brandt Snedeker - new/old Odyssey putter - 2022 the Memorial
       
       
       
       
      • 7 replies

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