Do all pros use the bounce when chipping?

[glk]

Ridyard knows a thing or two about this topic

 

 

[Jim Waldron]

I think some of the confusion and debate is due to buzzwords like "use the bounce" v "use the leading edge".

 

I think it is a classic example of all or nothing aka binary thinking.

 

Classical chipping you should never intend to "use the leading edge" to take a divot or even to contact the turf first.

 

Rather think about presenting the entire sole of the clubhead to the turf under the ball.

 

With chip-pitching, you can think about the bounce entering first by a tiny bit, especially my A version using a slight upward wrist c0ck and thus downward un-cocking.

 

In fact I teach new students this technique by having them focus on a spot about 1/4" behind the ball and to "thump" the  grass with the bounce at that precise spot.

 

Never take a divot with classical chipping - only exception is if ground is very soggy, and even then only a very shallow divot, that takes no dirt.

 

Classical chipping has a much greater margin of error than chip-pitching. Not even a close contest. 

[EastTNGolfer]

33 minutes ago, dave458 said:

Good for him.  When are the cows coming home...

If you don't have anything to say you can just not reply. Try it sometime.

[CSagan]

All pros know how to use bounce. They use it sometimes. /thread 

[Double Mocha Man]

Ever stub a putt?  They need to make putters with bounce.

[buckeyefl]

5 hours ago, EastTNGolfer said:

If you don't have anything to say you can just not reply. Try it sometime.

 

There was a point in there but you focused on the delivery.

[Krt22]

6 hours ago, EastTNGolfer said:

If you don't have anything to say you can just not reply. Try it sometime.

New poster and pesters people in here. 99% chance he’s a repeatedly banned troll. 

[80sFredriksson]

On 7/29/2022 at 3:56 AM, Krt22 said:

The core element of using the bounce is a very shallow strike (with minimal shaft lean). With the right technique it will skid along the path, not bounce off it. It will bounce if you are too steep

 

 

Maybe it should be called the skid then? 😁

[Righty to Lefty]

On 7/29/2022 at 12:59 AM, Barfolomew said:

I've seen plenty of pros take divots when chipping round the greens.  Does that mean they are not playin the bounce or missed their shot?

 

I've always thought playin the bounce was a cop out... a safe way to chip if you're not on your A game.  Is it?

 

Do the best players/chippers use the bounce when they are on their A game?  A downward strike leading edge first at the ball doesn't seem that hard, off hard pan or wherever when you're dialed in... 🐈

 

 

 

I cringe when I see a pro rip up  a beaver pelt sized divot on a 60 yard wedge shot because whoever fit them for those clubs should be ashamed of themselves.  It would be as simple as noting their AoA and then ensuring that the bounce angle is more than that number.  You are supposed to use the bounce on just about all wedge shots and it is not a cop out to use the club as it was designed to be used.  You should not be striking ball first on most all short game shots and thus you should be using the bounce because the club is supposed to interact with the turf prior to striking the ball but you don't want the club to dig which is the purpose of the bounce. 

[TheDeanAbides]

22 hours ago, dave458 said:

I gotta get you guys some vintage year scoop-dig sole wedges with leading edges like knife blades just so I can watch those knees wobble.  really now, bounce, no bounce, hinge hold, drive flip etc. they're all valid when called for.  bouncing just to bounce is silly.  

That’s a strawman. Nobody is suggesting that there isn’t a place for other shots, but if you don’t make the shallow AoA shot using the bounce your go to you’re making the game harder than it needs to be. 

[glk]

Steep doesn’t mean you cant use the bounce.  Here is ridyard with 17* aoa - though he didn’t recommend being that steep, lol.  And trenches don’t have to be a steep aoa - there is such as thing as arc radius in the swing that contributes.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CWTpJxSN-6c/?hl=en

Edited July 31, 2022 by glk

[Double Mocha Man]

4 hours ago, 80sFredriksson said:

Maybe it should be called the skid then? 😁

One must never leave skid marks on the cart paths.

[MK7Golf21]

On 7/29/2022 at 5:18 PM, Jim Waldron said:

 

 

I am saying you should question what exactly "using the bounce" means - when I was growing up this was not a "meme".  Everyone knew how to do what I now call classical chipping -there was only one basic way to do it.

 

So let's define it then: a very low trajectory shot with no backspin, that rolls out like a putt. That is the literal traditional definition of a chip shot. It is done with slightly arched wrists, to create a fairly shallow angle of attack so that you do not dig the leading edge. Same with forward shaft lean - you need some to get the leading edge under the bottom half of the ball and to hit it solidly.  But you can have too much which causes leading edge to dig. There is ZERO wrist c0ck, and no release of any slight hinge angle in the back of your trail wrist.

 

I recommend the gap wedge as primary chipping tool, although my students will also chip with 6 iron, 8 iron, sand wedge and lob wedge. On a level green, no wind, running 10 on the Stimp, my gap wedge will fly 50% of the way to the hole and then roll out the other 50%. Might get at most two feet high in the air, often less than that.

 

What most modern tour pros do most of the time is NOT classical chipping even though they will use the term "chip" - it is a hybrid shot that has elements of both  pitching and chipping. It flies higher and further than an actual chip shot, has medium spin, so thus less roll out than an actual chip shot. But that hybrid shot ("Chip-pitch") will always have some setting of wrist angles and thus release of those angles. Which is why it is WAY more difficult a shot to learn and to execute, than old school chipping. 

 

I will say this: I get contacted almost daily by golfers with severe chipping yips, and the primary reason they got the yips in the first place is because what they thought they were attempting  was chipping, but was in fact a chip-pitch. And they had neither the body feel awareness required to learn that chip-pitch shot to a high level of skill, or the overall understanding of the required mechanics. 

 

I teach three ways to execute a chip-pitch: a. slight 1/4 vertical wrist c0ck and release. b. a slight backwards hinging of the trail wrist and then releasing that hinge angle just before impact (which is the one that can indeed work on very tight lies or even concrete IF you are really good at it) and c. a blend of a and b.  

 

The lie will dictate which of those will be the best choice. A is the easiest to learn since it is a micro version of your normal  power swing release in terms of how the wrists unlock. B is a bit harder because so many golfers struggle with flipping the wrists sideways in the short game (and long game too), and this version is very much a controlled tiny micro-flip of the trail wrist, what I call "hinge-unhinge-hold" meaning you start to do the micro-flip when the clubhead is very close to the ball/impact, and then right before the strike happens you stop the flip, meaning the club head is coming into the ground on a moderately steep angle and right before impact, the clubhead moves forwards as the hinge angle releases, which is just enough to slide the leading edge under the bottom half of the ball, and not cause it to dig into the turf.

 

Takes a lot of finesse to learn how to do well.

 

C is the hardest one of all but will work from a variety of lies, especially green side rough.

 

But why on earth would anyone attempt to learn any of those three techniques when there is a far, far simpler technique that will work really well about 75% of the time when your ball is close the green? So I never teach chip-pitching until and unless the student can demonstrate proficiency in standard chipping first.

 

What Rory is demonstrating in the recent video posted in this thread is chip-pitching, not chipping.

I used something similar to your classic chipping description that I learned watching Steve Stricker.
 

higher hands almost over the ball. No set of the wrists on way back and just all body. Heel can’t dig and super shallow. I almost feel a little toe down at address. Basically the most forgiving way to chip ever and used it for years. 
 

I use some chip/pitching techniques as well at times.

Edited July 31, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[buckeyefl]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I cringe when I see a pro rip up  a beaver pelt sized divot on a 60 yard wedge shot because whoever fit them for those clubs should be ashamed of themselves.  It would be as simple as noting their AoA and then ensuring that the bounce angle is more than that number.  You are supposed to use the bounce on just about all wedge shots and it is not a cop out to use the club as it was designed to be used.  You should not be striking ball first on most all short game shots and thus you should be using the bounce because the club is supposed to interact with the turf prior to striking the ball but you don't want the club to dig which is the purpose of the bounce. 

 

Say what?

[buckeyefl]

Small beaver. Misfit for his wedges?

 

 

 

 

 

[buckeyefl]

Bad fitting?

 

 

[buckeyefl]

 

[buckeyefl]

Steep or not? Bounce or no bounce?

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CgfBPG4AMpu/

[Zitlow]

Is the divot caused by the leading edge or trailing edge? 

[dap]

Well, if you are looking for forgiveness why stop at “using the bounce”? Toe down, hitting off the toe chipping makes using the bounce seem like hitting a one iron.

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

14 hours ago, buckeyefl said:

 

Say what?

Ummm....the sole purpose of bounce and or sole width on a wedge is to be used to prevent the club from digging into the turf because with your standard short game wedge shots you should be engaging the turf prior to striking the ball.  Bounce is not used on a shot where you intend to strike ball first because by the time the club engages the turf the ball will have exited the club face.  Bounce and sole width on your irons, hybrids, and fairway woods is an insurance policy to help retain speed in the event that you engage the turf prior to striking the ball but it is mandatory on a wedge because you are supposed to engage the turf prior to striking the ball.  The leading edge of the club should not be engaging the turf on most all of your short game shots and yes, if you rip up a foot long divot on a 60 yard wedge shot, I don't care who you are, your wedges are ill fit...period.  Bruising the turf...sure...but ripping up a foot long divot on a partial wedge shot should not happen.  

 

14 hours ago, buckeyefl said:

Small beaver. Misfit for his wedges?

 

 

 

 

 

No...this is a fuller wedge shot and he is likely using a lob wedge and thus this divot is much more reasonable. This is not a leading edge divot and he is using the bounce of the club and the way that can be determined is look what happened to the grass that his club gathered when it hit the ground after the shot...it disintegrated and there is nothing for the caddy to go get and replace.  Rory's divot below is very very different. 

 

14 hours ago, buckeyefl said:

Bad fitting?

 

 

Don't know the yardage of the shot...but if it is under 100 yards then yes this would be an ill fit wedge. You should not be using leading edge on partial wedge shots but this appears to be a full stock wedge shot judging by the length of his swing so if that is the case then he can use the leading edge and strike ball first.  This type of divot should not occur on a partial wedge shot under 100 yards no matter how soft the turf is.  It is also known that Rory often struggles with wedge shots under 100 yards and this is partly a flaw in his technique where he is using the leading edge instead of the trailing edge and his club setup not having enough bounce to resist digging into the turf. 

 

13 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Is the divot caused by the leading edge or trailing edge? 

Exactly the point that I was trying to make is that no partial wedge shot should be using the leading edge as this will rip up a foot long divot and require the strike to be perfect. Using the trailing edge will keep the leading edge from digging and bruise the turf and make a very different type of "divot."  This is also why most often on a partial wedge shot you over club which means that it will require less speed, thus more bounce can be used to execute the shot, and the closer to you stock yardage a given shot is the less of the bounce you can use.    

 

[EastTNGolfer]

12 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Ummm....the sole purpose of bounce and or sole width on a wedge is to be used to prevent the club from digging into the turf because with your standard short game wedge shots you should be engaging the turf prior to striking the ball.  Bounce is not used on a shot where you intend to strike ball first because by the time the club engages the turf the ball will have exited the club face.  Bounce and sole width on your irons, hybrids, and fairway woods is an insurance policy to help retain speed in the event that you engage the turf prior to striking the ball but it is mandatory on a wedge because you are supposed to engage the turf prior to striking the ball.  The leading edge of the club should not be engaging the turf on most all of your short game shots and yes, if you rip up a foot long divot on a 60 yard wedge shot, I don't care who you are, your wedges are ill fit...period.  Bruising the turf...sure...but ripping up a foot long divot on a partial wedge shot should not happen.  

 

No...this is a fuller wedge shot and he is likely using a lob wedge and thus this divot is much more reasonable. This is not a leading edge divot and he is using the bounce of the club and the way that can be determined is look what happened to the grass that his club gathered when it hit the ground after the shot...it disintegrated and there is nothing for the caddy to go get and replace.  Rory's divot below is very very different. 

 

Don't know the yardage of the shot...but if it is under 100 yards then yes this would be an ill fit wedge. You should not be using leading edge on partial wedge shots but this appears to be a full stock wedge shot judging by the length of his swing so if that is the case then he can use the leading edge and strike ball first.  This type of divot should not occur on a partial wedge shot under 100 yards no matter how soft the turf is.  It is also known that Rory often struggles with wedge shots under 100 yards and this is partly a flaw in his technique where he is using the leading edge instead of the trailing edge and his club setup not having enough bounce to resist digging into the turf. 

 

Exactly the point that I was trying to make is that no partial wedge shot should be using the leading edge as this will rip up a foot long divot and require the strike to be perfect. Using the trailing edge will keep the leading edge from digging and bruise the turf and make a very different type of "divot."  This is also why most often on a partial wedge shot you over club which means that it will require less speed, thus more bounce can be used to execute the shot, and the closer to you stock yardage a given shot is the less of the bounce you can use.    

 

 

 

From what I understand you will be using the leading edge and slight handle lean with distance wedges. Seickmann again....

 

 

Quote

To maximize control and consistency in varying conditions, the best distance wedge players typically “flight” the ball down a bit while creating enough spin to stop it quickly on the green despite the lower trajectory. This is done by using the correct kinematic sequence to produce power, properly delivering the club into the ball, and creating sufficient clubhead speed and friction between the clubface and the ball. You need sharp grooves and a clean lie to create maximum spin, which is why professional players change wedges each year. (Take note and consider doing likewise when the groove edges start to become noticeably worn.)
It’s intuitive that more loft and more speed creates more spin, but how do you flight a lofted wedge? Remember that as the goals pertaining to the use of the club change, so does the technique. If you used your finesse sequence on a shot from 75 yards, not only would it be next to impossible to hit a lofted club that far, that movement would produce an extremely high ball flight that would be at the mercy of the vagaries of the wind. A stronger, more penetrating flight is more effective. To accomplish this, slightly deloft the club at impact by having the handle lead the clubhead through the ball. A power sequence and the proper blend of both lateral and rotary motion from your body in the downswing are necessary to deliver the club this way. The lateral shift not only moves the low point of your swing arc forward, but buys time for you to swing the handle back down in front of your body, which is key to getting the shaft to lean slightly forward at impact.
This is essentially the first phase of the downswing. The second phase is the rotary motion of the body through impact and the continuation of the arm swing. This motion creates what I call “verticals” in your swing. Think about the club’s interaction with the turf for a minute: Your hands are ahead at impact and your weight is moving into your lead leg. It seems like this arrangement has created the potential for you to “dig a trench” with your wedge, and although taking a small divot is fine, this isn’t what you see on TV. Why? When your body rotates in the second phase of the downswing, two things happen: 1) your lead leg begins to straighten (upward movement) as the hip turns back over the lead heel; and 2) the handle of the club ever so slightly follows suit as the lead shoulder rotates up and back around your head. Both of these verticals shallow your angle attack, allowing you to have your hands ahead of the clubhead at impact and your swing center forward without being too steep and digging a trench. Essentially, you’ve paired two steepening elements (stacked backswing and lateral downswing shift) with the two shallowing elements embedded in the verticals. The net effect is perfect contact and a controlled ball flight.

 

 

[Grayback1973]

One of the concepts that Jim Waldron talks about that I think cause more bad chips and pitches(along with many full shots) is flinching. This causes double hits,skulls and chili dips. It is in my opinion very mental like so many other things in this game.You can have great techniques around the green but yet under pressure you might flinch and cause a very poor execution. You very rarely see pros flinch in their short game.

 

Just my 2¢

[mikpga]

No…

[b.mattay]

15 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Exactly the point that I was trying to make is that no partial wedge shot should be using the leading edge as this will rip up a foot long divot and require the strike to be perfect. Using the trailing edge will keep the leading edge from digging and bruise the turf and make a very different type of "divot."  This is also why most often on a partial wedge shot you over club which means that it will require less speed, thus more bounce can be used to execute the shot, and the closer to you stock yardage a given shot is the less of the bounce you can use.    

 

Not exactly true-most tour pros will take some sort of a divot as you start to get past 50-60 ish yards. If you don't, dynamic loft will be too high for that sort of shot. IMO, if you can't hit ball first from that mid-wedge distance there are WAY bigger issues at hand. 

[Righty to Lefty]

10 hours ago, EastTNGolfer said:

 

 

From what I understand you will be using the leading edge and slight handle lean with distance wedges. Seickmann again....

 

 

 

By "distance wedges" are you meaning a full shot?  If so then sure, you can use the leading edge but I am referring to partial wedge shots under 100 yards.  The leading edge on most any club is designed to dig on immediate contact with the turf while the bounce is designed to keep the club from digging and keep the club at the surface of the turf to retain as much speed as possible by keeping the leading edge above the turf. This is an insurance policy on irons, hybrids, and fairway woods (use sole width to get the same effect of bounce) but it is mandatory on a wedge because you are supposed to engage the turf prior striking the ball.  

 

7 hours ago, b.mattay said:

Not exactly true-most tour pros will take some sort of a divot as you start to get past 50-60 ish yards. If you don't, dynamic loft will be too high for that sort of shot. IMO, if you can't hit ball first from that mid-wedge distance there are WAY bigger issues at hand. 

The speed that the shot is struck at will have a much bigger influence...typically you are well over clubbed on a partial wedge shot even if you are using a lob wedge on a 50-60 yard wedge shot this is a club that most can hit some 90 yards thus it will require less speed to execute the shot so the ball will always come off at a lower trajectory.  If you are using a 56 or even a 52 degree it will come off at an even lower trajectory but will have more spin than a shot hit with a lob wedge in most cases.  

 

Your flaw in your assessment is that you say that if you can't hit ball first on a mid-wedge distance there are WAY bigger problems...you are not supposed to hit a partial wedge shot ball first. You are supposed to use the bounce on purpose.  Just like in the bunker you use the bounce until which point you are too far away from the green and are forced to strike ball first and a partial wedge shot using the bounce is no different.   

[Pastit]

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

By "distance wedges" are you meaning a full shot?  If so then sure, you can use the leading edge but I am referring to partial wedge shots under 100 yards.  The leading edge on most any club is designed to dig on immediate contact with the turf while the bounce is designed to keep the club from digging and keep the club at the surface of the turf to retain as much speed as possible by keeping the leading edge above the turf. This is an insurance policy on irons, hybrids, and fairway woods (use sole width to get the same effect of bounce) but it is mandatory on a wedge because you are supposed to engage the turf prior striking the ball.  

 

The speed that the shot is struck at will have a much bigger influence...typically you are well over clubbed on a partial wedge shot even if you are using a lob wedge on a 50-60 yard wedge shot this is a club that most can hit some 90 yards thus it will require less speed to execute the shot so the ball will always come off at a lower trajectory.  If you are using a 56 or even a 52 degree it will come off at an even lower trajectory but will have more spin than a shot hit with a lob wedge in most cases.  

 

Your flaw in your assessment is that you say that if you can't hit ball first on a mid-wedge distance there are WAY bigger problems...you are not supposed to hit a partial wedge shot ball first. You are supposed to use the bounce on purpose.  Just like in the bunker you use the bounce until which point you are too far away from the green and are forced to strike ball first and a partial wedge shot using the bounce is no different.   

“ The leading edge on most any club is designed to dig on immediate contact with the turf while the bounce is designed to keep the club from digging and keep the club at the surface of the turf to retain as much speed as possible by keeping the leading edge above the turf. “

 

Is this not ambiguous/ confusing ? One minute the LE is digging and then it’s above the turf ! I assume you mean once the LE is in the turf, the bounce stops further digging. Perhaps best illustrated in sand. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Pastit

[Righty to Lefty]

22 minutes ago, Pastit said:

“ The leading edge on most any club is designed to dig on immediate contact with the turf while the bounce is designed to keep the club from digging and keep the club at the surface of the turf to retain as much speed as possible by keeping the leading edge above the turf. “

 

Is this not ambiguous/ confusing ? One minute the LE is digging and then it’s above the turf ! I assume you mean once the LE is in the turf, the bounce stops further digging. Perhaps best illustrated in sand. 

No that is not what I mean and you should reread what you quoted from me because that is not what I said. The leading edge is not responsible for the bounce angle of the club...the trailing edge is (see photo below). The bounce angle on a wedge should be enough that the leading edge does not make to below the turf and that will create a bruising of the turf instead instead of digging into it.  

If the proper technique is used the leading edge of the club should not enter the turf at all during the shot.  You should also note in the photo that the shaft is roughly vertical by the orientation of the hosel and this is what must be done to expose the bounce on a given wedge because if you lean the shaft forward then you are taking the bounce off the club and giving the club a chance to dig should the AoA be more than the bounce angle at impact. Sure the shaft will likely be leaned forward at impact, but it should be a minimal amount and it is better to just try and visualize the shaft being vertical at time it engages the turf. Once the leading edge goes below the the turf the damage has mostly been done and it is too late because way too much energy will be lost to the ground.  On a bunker shot you are ejecting the ball out of the bunker by striking the sand below the ball and in order for that to happen you have to strike behind the ball some amount.  Yes the purpose of the bounce is to prevent the club from digging to deeply into sand but of course the sand is loose and thus it is more easily moved out of the way whereas the turf may or may not depending on how tight it is.  The technique to hit a bunker shot and a partial wedge shot are the exact same though where you are engaging the ground/sand behind the ball while engaging the bounce of the club keep the leading edge from digging. If there was anything else that you were unclear on please don't hesitate to ask and I will clarify further. R to L

[Pastit]

3 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

No that is not what I mean and you should reread what you quoted from me because that is not what I said. The leading edge is not responsible for the bounce angle of the club...the trailing edge is (see photo below). The bounce angle on a wedge should be enough that the leading edge does not make to below the turf and that will create a bruising of the turf instead instead of digging into it.  

If the proper technique is used the leading edge of the club should not enter the turf at all during the shot.  You should also note in the photo that the shaft is roughly vertical by the orientation of the hosel and this is what must be done to expose the bounce on a given wedge because if you lean the shaft forward then you are taking the bounce off the club and giving the club a chance to dig should the AoA be more than the bounce angle at impact. Sure the shaft will likely be leaned forward at impact, but it should be a minimal amount and it is better to just try and visualize the shaft being vertical at time it engages the turf. Once the leading edge goes below the the turf the damage has mostly been done and it is too late because way too much energy will be lost to the ground.  On a bunker shot you are ejecting the ball out of the bunker by striking the sand below the ball and in order for that to happen you have to strike behind the ball some amount.  Yes the purpose of the bounce is to prevent the club from digging to deeply into sand but of course the sand is loose and thus it is more easily moved out of the way whereas the turf may or may not depending on how tight it is.  The technique to hit a bunker shot and a partial wedge shot are the exact same though where you are engaging the ground/sand behind the ball while engaging the bounce of the club keep the leading edge from digging. If there was anything else that you were unclear on please don't hesitate to ask and I will clarify further. R to L

Thanks for all your trouble. What I quoted was an exact copy of what you wrote as I used copy and paste. 
 

But please don’t trouble further as I’m a sweeper with irons and that’s probably where I’ve gone wrong all these years. Raised on a soaking wet parkland course and a links, I found I could only hit down on the latter. Thanks again.

[EastTNGolfer]

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

By "distance wedges" are you meaning a full shot?  If so then sure, you can use the leading edge but I am referring to partial wedge shots under 100 yards.  The leading edge on most any club is designed to dig on immediate contact with the turf while the bounce is designed to keep the club from digging and keep the club at the surface of the turf to retain as much speed as possible by keeping the leading edge above the turf. This is an insurance policy on irons, hybrids, and fairway woods (use sole width to get the same effect of bounce) but it is mandatory on a wedge because you are supposed to engage the turf prior striking the ball.  

 

The speed that the shot is struck at will have a much bigger influence...typically you are well over clubbed on a partial wedge shot even if you are using a lob wedge on a 50-60 yard wedge shot this is a club that most can hit some 90 yards thus it will require less speed to execute the shot so the ball will always come off at a lower trajectory.  If you are using a 56 or even a 52 degree it will come off at an even lower trajectory but will have more spin than a shot hit with a lob wedge in most cases.  

 

Your flaw in your assessment is that you say that if you can't hit ball first on a mid-wedge distance there are WAY bigger problems...you are not supposed to hit a partial wedge shot ball first. You are supposed to use the bounce on purpose.  Just like in the bunker you use the bounce until which point you are too far away from the green and are forced to strike ball first and a partial wedge shot using the bounce is no different.   

No I'm pretty much talking about any wedge shot over 40ish yards. Did you read the Seickmann book quote I had? If you have like a 70 or 80 yard wedge shot and you try to use the bounce you're going to be delivering way too much loft and it's going to be a bad horrible shot.

Edited August 2, 2022 by EastTNGolfer