LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[jjtour]

5 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

There has been a system for getting points. However Norman's arrogance wouldn't allow LIV to comply with the OWGR framework. This is not an OWGR problem, it's self-inflicted problem by LIV! 

 

Throwing a tantrum like a child that doesn't get their way won't get you points. Next time follow the rules! 

I agree. Greg 100% F'ed up trying to strong arm OWGR to get points. That's on him and LIV brass, does that mean they dont deserve some points. No. Getting and being deserving of something are two different things.

[bekgolf]

4 minutes ago, Pops99 said:

That's not the point. They KNEW when they left they had no OWGR points and none were forthcoming (unless they actually believed Third Leg Greg). And now they want to whine about not being in the majors. They KNEW this. 

 

My thoughts exactly.  They left competitive golf for huge amounts of money on an exhibition tour.  I don't get why they even want to play in traditional majors anymore, it's not the great golf evolution that Liv is (according to the ones who left) so why would they want to go back to that antiquated style of golf with a cut line and 4 days of 18 holes.

 

 

[bekgolf]

3 minutes ago, jjtour said:

I agree. Greg 100% F'ed up trying to strong arm OWGR to get points. That's on him and LIV brass, does that mean they dont deserve some points. No. Getting and being deserving of something are two different things.

 

They don't deserve anything.  It's a different format of golf that doesn't comply with OWGR.  Why should the golfing world have to bend to the demands of an exhibition tour that refuses to follow the established process for points?

[jjtour]

7 minutes ago, Pops99 said:

That's not the point. They KNEW when they left they had no OWGR points and none were forthcoming (unless they actually believed Third Leg Greg). And now they want to whine about not being in the majors. They KNEW this. 

Yeah I get that they KNEW. I dont think Niemann is whining at all. He has been one of the players travelling the world to play other events and playing well. This isnt Lee Westwood chiming in on twitterX getting DFL in a LIV event saying gimme points. Niemann is playing his a** off and doing a pretty good job of it, if you want a true best on best like a major should be, he should be there. Again, getting and being deserving of are two different things. To say elite players, beating strong enough fields arent deserving of some points is not correct. I'm not saying full points, but to have Nick Dunlap currently ahead of Niemann in professional OWGR is kind of a farce. both great players but to have Niemann dropping in points doesnt show the true reflection of world rankings. 

[bscinstnct]

JN can easily qualify for the US/Open Championship 

 

Then, is it’s important to him, he can score good enough finishes to get some exemptions for the future 

 

But he can always qualify for those 2

 

 

[jjtour]

2 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

They don't deserve anything.  It's a different format of golf that doesn't comply with OWGR.  Why should the golfing world have to bend to the demands of an exhibition tour that refuses to follow the established process for points?

Man this forum is so black and white lol.  So different format besides more exemptions than normal how? PGAT just had a rain shortened 54 hole no cut event at Pebble. LIV guys play on teams sure but if Pat Perez shanks one into the bush on one hole, Dustin Johnson doesnt come over to hit his next shot for him. It's still golf. They should get some points, full points no. But would argue that the only events deserving of full points would be 72 hole with a cut.

[bekgolf]

7 minutes ago, jjtour said:

Man this forum is so black and white lol.  So different format besides more exemptions than normal how? PGAT just had a rain shortened 54 hole no cut event at Pebble. LIV guys play on teams sure but if Pat Perez shanks one into the bush on one hole, Dustin Johnson doesnt come over to hit his next shot for him. It's still golf. They should get some points, full points no. But would argue that the only events deserving of full points would be 72 hole with a cut.

 

Liv can get OWGR points, all they have to do is follow the criteria set by OWGR.  Easy peasy.

[golfpractitioner5]

I have given LIV several chances when I actually remember they have a tournament going on TV.  They are actually horrible at letting people know that.  I did not even know they had a tournament this past weekend until I saw the final results pop up on Instagram.

 

My view on LIV, based on the few tournaments that I have tried to watch on TV and youtube, is that it is a horrible product to watch.  Most of that is based on the fact that I find their commentary horrible.  I will be the first to say that PGAT commentary isn't moving the needle, but at least, it does not make me cringe with some of the statements and attempts to be funny or relevant.

 

I have tried watching it on mute with music or something else in the background, but then, it is even worse because half time on the main feed, all you are seeing is balls landing on a green.  It doesn't even show the player hit it half the time.

 

I am going to try and go to the tournament this summer in person to see what it is like before I make my final opinion on LIV as a whole.  I have been to a PGAT even in person, so it will be good to compare.  We have a tournament for LIV in June in the Nashville area which is the one I'm going to attempt to go to.  As for the course they are playing, I know several guys who have played The Grove which is where it is being held.  They think its a joke that it is hosting what is considered elite competition events.  It used to host a Korn Ferry event which they say makes sense from the tips but should never be in the discussion for hosting top tier talent events which is what the LIV boasts they have.  I've never played, so I am just going off their opinions on that.

 

I have a few friends who have attended rounds at LIV tourneys, and they are mixed on the matter.  A couple said it was better in person because you can just follow who you want to like any other PGAT event, and they liked the atmosphere. One said he was indifferent, but he says that about PGAT events, too.  The other two said it was a joke.  Now, those two go to a lot of tourneys, and one is a head Greenkeeper of a course.  His view in particular was interesting.  He said they maintain the courses well for tournament prep, but there is a marked difference in his opinion of the quality and difficulty of the rough between LIV and PGAT tourneys that he has been to.  He thinks that might be due to how the courses shut down and prep for PGAT as opposed to LIV tournaments.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

19 minutes ago, jjtour said:

I agree. Greg 100% F'ed up trying to strong arm OWGR to get points. That's on him and LIV brass, does that mean they dont deserve some points. No. Getting and being deserving of something are two different things.

 

There's a well spelled out process to apply for and be granted points. You don't deserve anything unless you follow the rules.

 

The mission of the OWGR is to administer and publish, on a weekly basis, a transparent, credible, and accurate Ranking based on the relative performances of players participating in male Eligible Golf Tours worldwide.

 

 

[woahnelly]

42 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

JN can easily qualify for the US/Open Championship 

 

Then, is it’s important to him, he can score good enough finishes to get some exemptions for the future 

 

But he can always qualify for those 2

 

 

 

That's a lot of majors experience for someone his age, impressive! 

[grm24]

54 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

Liv can get OWGR points, all they have to do is follow the criteria set by OWGR.  Easy peasy.

Exactly. They were denied ranking points based on their application. The OWGR board explained why they weren't getting points when denied. And since they were denied they have done little or nothing to come into compliance and/or resubmit an application. It's on them now. 

Edited February 5 by grm24

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, jjtour said:

 

LOL. I love the argument that LIV golfers are evil and PGAT not, they both play for money and not pure for the love of the game amateur last time I checked. 

 

Strawman argument. Nobody said the LIV golfers are evil. Many of us are unhappy with LIV trying to fracture/dilute the sport we watch and set up some sort of a "super tour" that we (as fans) didn't ask for. 

 

Many of us (myself included) are disappointed that some of the big names in the game took the money and joined LIV. But we all understand the reasons ($$$) that it makes sense for many of them. 

 

Quote

 

The argument that you signed with LIV therefore you're not worth any world ranking points as a professional is absolute BS. I'm not saying full points, I'm saying find a system that rewards every professional playing vs their competition.

 

 

Another strawman. It's not that going to LIV makes them undeserving of points. It's that the OWGR system has a defined ethos of what it's supposed to be (a meritocracy where anyone can play onto the tour and those who aren't performing fall out of the tour) as well as a bunch of defined criteria for inclusion (72 holes, a cut, average field sizes >75, etc). LIV isn't a meritocracy and it doesn't meet the criteria. 

 

LIV applied for OWGR, and in the response, the OWGR said they were willing to look past the 54 holes, no-cut, limited field stuff. All of that stuff is basically just a math problem. There were two stated reasons they denied the application:

 

1. The aforementioned lack of meritocracy. While LIV has tried to work around that with having 4 players relegated and 4 new players chosen, that's pretty miniscule. But even worse is that any players under contract CAN'T be relegated, no matter how badly they play. Inclusion is "whoever Greg wants plus 4 scrubs" and exclusion is "the worst four players EXCEPT those that Greg has given immunity." For the OWGR, that meritocracy bit is important. 
2. The team aspect. There was one incident where a player (I forget which) was WELL out of contention. A one-putt birdie would have hellped the player individually, while a three-putt bogey would hurt his team. He admitted that he was more concerned about avoiding the three-putt to help his team than trying to hole the putt to help himself individually. It makes it hard to understand individual rankings when the players might be motivated by non-individual things. It's the same reason the Zurich doesn't get points. In a fourball match, you may have one player on your team sink a putt for par, so the other player can be aggressive with a birdie putt because they know missing the putt and sending it 8 feet past has zero penalty. 

Those are the two things that the OWGR said got in the way of points. LIV can adjust those things... But they don't want to. 

 

Quote

Or you get rid of exemptions for EVERYONE and make it qualification based right from the start. Dunno how the Masters is gonna do that, but US Open, Open Championship already do. Just expand it. You wanna play majors show up to the qualifier, not given to one guy or another based on being on a more elite tour. I would argue that European Tour players are undervalued in world rankings given their difficulty of travel alone, but I hear little in response to them getting more points than what they do now. Everything is about the US PGAT, which should not be the case.

 

There are some fair points here. At least with the US Open and Open Championship, there are ways for any LIV player to get into the major. Rather than making it MORE qualification-based, for those two entities (and even the PGA) I could absolutely see them going the opposite way. Perhaps taking maybe the top 5 LIV players from the previous season. With the limited fields, short schedule, and limited amount of cross-tour play, I don't see them just taking the top half of LIV or anything like that. 

 

The Masters, though, is an invitational. They run their own show and they have historically NOT taken kindly to anyone outside themselves telling them what to do. So good luck telling them to admit LIV players if they don't want to. They're going to do whatever the heck they want. I'd say you should head over to Fred Ridley's office to plead your case, but you'll probably get arrested for trespassing and I don't like that journey for you. 

[munichop]

Hypothetically is there a tipping point if LIV keeps getting more name players - say for instance they get Cantlay and Schauffle as apackage then Hovland decides to jump? At what point do the majors revise their qualifying so they get the best fields?  Right now the guys who have won the Masters seem more likely to go to LIV since they feel they can always plays that tourney.  What if RM wins the Masters to get the career slam and goes to LIV?  All the qualifications for the majors are not written in stone.  Will be interesting if LIV keeps getting more decent players.

[bscinstnct]

19 minutes ago, woahnelly said:

 

That's a lot of majors experience for someone his age, impressive! 

 

Ya and people might be surprised at how 90% + players weigh majors vs money.

 

An “undercover tour pro” did an interview and said nearly all players would take a fedex cup over any major but the masters…and he said that’s a maybe basically. 

Edited February 5 by bscinstnct

[Titleist99]

25 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Strawman argument. Nobody said the LIV golfers are evil. Many of us are unhappy with LIV trying to fracture/dilute the sport we watch and set up some sort of a "super tour" that we (as fans) didn't ask for. 

 

Many of us (myself included) are disappointed that some of the big names in the game took the money and joined LIV. But we all understand the reasons ($$$) that it makes sense for many of them. 

 

 

Another strawman. It's not that going to LIV makes them undeserving of points. It's that the OWGR system has a defined ethos of what it's supposed to be (a meritocracy where anyone can play onto the tour and those who aren't performing fall out of the tour) as well as a bunch of defined criteria for inclusion (72 holes, a cut, average field sizes >75, etc). LIV isn't a meritocracy and it doesn't meet the criteria. 

 

LIV applied for OWGR, and in the response, the OWGR said they were willing to look past the 54 holes, no-cut, limited field stuff. All of that stuff is basically just a math problem. There were two stated reasons they denied the application:

 

1. The aforementioned lack of meritocracy. While LIV has tried to work around that with having 4 players relegated and 4 new players chosen, that's pretty miniscule. But even worse is that any players under contract CAN'T be relegated, no matter how badly they play. Inclusion is "whoever Greg wants plus 4 scrubs" and exclusion is "the worst four players EXCEPT those that Greg has given immunity." For the OWGR, that meritocracy bit is important. 
2. The team aspect. There was one incident where a player (I forget which) was WELL out of contention. A one-putt birdie would have hellped the player individually, while a three-putt bogey would hurt his team. He admitted that he was more concerned about avoiding the three-putt to help his team than trying to hole the putt to help himself individually. It makes it hard to understand individual rankings when the players might be motivated by non-individual things. It's the same reason the Zurich doesn't get points. In a fourball match, you may have one player on your team sink a putt for par, so the other player can be aggressive with a birdie putt because they know missing the putt and sending it 8 feet past has zero penalty. 

Those are the two things that the OWGR said got in the way of points. LIV can adjust those things... But they don't want to. 

 

 

There are some fair points here. At least with the US Open and Open Championship, there are ways for any LIV player to get into the major. Rather than making it MORE qualification-based, for those two entities (and even the PGA) I could absolutely see them going the opposite way. Perhaps taking maybe the top 5 LIV players from the previous season. With the limited fields, short schedule, and limited amount of cross-tour play, I don't see them just taking the top half of LIV or anything like that. 

 

The Masters, though, is an invitational. They run their own show and they have historically NOT taken kindly to anyone outside themselves telling them what to do. So good luck telling them to admit LIV players if they don't want to. They're going to do whatever the heck they want. I'd say you should head over to Fred Ridley's office to plead your case, but you'll probably get arrested for trespassing and I don't like that journey for you. 

I think that you explained perfectly why LIV Golf does not get OWGR points. Anyone not understanding the process is being purposely obtuse. IMO

[grm24]

25 minutes ago, munichop said:

guys who have won the Masters seem more likely to go to LIV since they feel they can always plays that tourney.  What if RM wins the Masters to get the career slam and goes to LIV?  All the qualifications for the majors are not written in stone.  

Players that have won or win the Open Championship and PGA Championship can keep playing in them every year as well as The Masters. If Rory would win at Augusta this year he would complete the career grand slam and be exempt into the US Open for the next 5 years. 

[Louis_Posture]

28 minutes ago, munichop said:

Hypothetically is there a tipping point if LIV keeps getting more name players

 

No. I believe it does no matter if Rory , Cantalay, Hovland and more decide to jump ship. There are plenty of sensational up and coming players ready and willing to be a member of the PGA Tour.

[Titleist99]

20 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Ya and people might be surprised at how 90% + players weigh majors vs money.

 

An “undercover tour pro” did an interview and said nearly all players would take a fedex cup over any major but the masters…and he said that’s a maybe basically. 

Doesn't surprise me one bit. Interview any touring Pro at the beginning of the year, and they'll tell you that the first goal is to get to Eastlake and the rest will follow.

 

The only ones that poo-poo on the FedEx Cup is WRXers.

[Louis_Posture]

2 hours ago, jjtour said:

 

Okay so I dont think the PGAT made the PGA, US Open or British majors since they have been around long before the PGAT

 

In the early 70's Jack Nicklaus began telling reporters that his focus each year was to prepare for and win four tournaments, and I believe it was he who first began calling those four tournaments the 'Majors'.

[Titleist99]

43 minutes ago, munichop said:

Hypothetically is there a tipping point if LIV keeps getting more name players - say for instance they get Cantlay and Schauffle as apackage then Hovland decides to jump? At what point do the majors revise their qualifying so they get the best fields?  Right now the guys who have won the Masters seem more likely to go to LIV since they feel they can always plays that tourney.  What if RM wins the Masters to get the career slam and goes to LIV?  All the qualifications for the majors are not written in stone.  Will be interesting if LIV keeps getting more decent players.

While we're speaking hypothetically, wouldn't the tearing down of the PGAT be harmful to the consumer?

 

Purchasing players for irrational prices without an expected return, and trying to drive its competitor out of the market would be an anti-trust violation. 

 

Hopefully or hypothetically, this would be sitting on someone's desk at the DOJ.🙂

[Gregakin]

16 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

No. I believe it does no matter if Rory , Cantalay, Hovland and more decide to jump ship. There are plenty of sensational up and coming players ready and willing to be a member of the PGA Tour.

Agreed. LIV is trying hard to be relevant today.  The PGAT IS relevant today and trying hard to protect its next generation talent.  

 

A full field tour cut at Mayakoba would have been under par and nearly 1/2 LIV field would be trunk slamming. 

 

I honestly do not believe the PGAT cares JR left. 

[DoughBack18]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Nobody said the LIV golfers are evil. Many of us are unhappy with LIV trying to fracture/dilute the sport we watch and set up some sort of a "super tour" that we (as fans) didn't ask for. 

 

They have literally been called and referred to as evil numerous times on here. I get that many are just unhappy; others are far, far beyond that.

Not saying that to try to be contrarian with you in the least, just something i’ve noticed in reading through lots of these threads.

[aus10KC]

6 minutes ago, DoughBack18 said:

They have literally been called and referred to as evil numerous times on here. I get that many are just unhappy; others are far, far beyond that.

Not saying that to try to be contrarian with you in the least, just something i’ve noticed in reading through lots of these threads.

 

What did Phil call them?

 

Please quote a post that said evil. This is a pretty pointed topic with hyperbole on both sides.

[Muffy]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

While we're speaking hypothetically, wouldn't the tearing down of the PGAT be harmful to the consumer?

 

Purchasing players for irrational prices without an expected return, and trying to drive its competitor out of the market would be an anti-trust violation. 

 

Hopefully or hypothetically, this would be sitting on someone's desk at the DOJ.🙂

Maybe if their intent was to monopolize professional golf in the US, that might be an issue.    But PIF is going about it the wrong way.   I haven't watched a single moment of a LIV event,  nor do I plan to, but maybe for a million$ or two$........it would be worth watching!   But I have my legacy as a viewer and Comcast points to think about, so it is a tough call.   

 

 

[woahnelly]

3 hours ago, munichop said:

Hypothetically is there a tipping point if LIV keeps getting more name players - say for instance they get Cantlay and Schauffle as apackage then Hovland decides to jump? At what point do the majors revise their qualifying so they get the best fields?  Right now the guys who have won the Masters seem more likely to go to LIV since they feel they can always plays that tourney.  What if RM wins the Masters to get the career slam and goes to LIV?  All the qualifications for the majors are not written in stone.  Will be interesting if LIV keeps getting more decent players.

 

I would stop watching LIV if I see Cantlay there, I can barely stand watching him on the PGA 😂

 

Sign AK and TK Ratachan instead of him and Xander pls Greg 🙏

[TiScape]

4 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

JN can easily qualify for the US/Open Championship 

 

Then, is it’s important to him, he can score good enough finishes to get some exemptions for the future 

 

But he can always qualify for those 2

 

 

Who JN! He go by Joaco now brah. Catch up!

😂

[bscinstnct]

13 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Who JN! He go by Joaco now brah. Catch up!

😂

 

That is so Joaco 

 

 

[idrive]

You'd be given a minimum of a 30 day timeout here on WRX if you called them (Saudi's) what Phil did so...

[Murphy76]

 

mis hit

 

Edited February 6 by Murphy76

[jimecherry]

3 hours ago, aus10KC said:

 

What did Phil call them?

 

Please quote a post that said evil. This is a pretty pointed topic with hyperbole on both sides.

this thread has been moderated several times for politically charged language referring to saudi's and pif the players have only been called names in regards to greed as far as i know.